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I agree that sign language would be a nice addition from both a linguistic perspective (i.e. the natural evolution of one or more sign languages to facilitate communication with the deaf) and an inclusive one (which is to say deafness does not disqualify one from being heroic and going on adventures).
The complication for me comes from how that impacts gameplay, especially in the organized play campaign. It's entirely possible for PCs all learn an obscure language (e.g. Treant) and use it to communicate with one another with virtually no risk of others understanding. That said, spoken languages are nonetheless audible, making it relatively hard to hide the fact that communication of some form is occurring—or worse, hidden ambushers are coordinating their attack.
My min-maxing side notes that sign language operates via line of sight, making it easier to hide. Introducing a sign language easily taken in Pathfinder Society would also not be retroactive, meaning that 7.5 seasons of adventures would have no creatures capable of understanding anything the PCs were communicating to one another. In a home game, a GM can readily switch up an NPC's languages, but that's not really an option in the organized play campaign. What's more, comprehend languages is "blind" to sign languages, and I can see an interpretation that even tongues would struggle to understand hand signals. It's akin to PCs who specialize in combining the see in darkness ability with deeper darkness; it won't work in some encounters, but all of the others have no way to combat it.
Anecdotally, I've seen players (in organized play and in home games) all learn Drow Sign to communicate with incomprehensible impunity. Whatever we do with sign language in Golarion, I don't want it to become the tactical must-have in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild.
Considering a cantrip (Message) can get the same effect, as well as an already extant "language" (lip reading) perfectly able to be taken by the rules already exist, I believe this is an unfounded concern.
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Yeah, I don't think PFS getting potentially slightly more unbalanced is enough of a concern to say "no" to deaf PCs who want to use the canon Golarion sign language.
Oh no! Imbalance? In Pathfinder?
:P
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Yeah, I don't think PFS getting potentially slightly more unbalanced is enough of a concern to say "no" to deaf PCs who want to use the canon Golarion sign language.Oh no! Imbalance? In Pathfinder?
:P
It's more likely than you think.
There are already examples of sign language being used by non-evil groups in fantasy. The wheel of time series has both the Maiden hand talk and the personal gestures a Seanchan High Blood uses to communicate with their voice.
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It's more likely than you think.Yeah, I don't think PFS getting potentially slightly more unbalanced is enough of a concern to say "no" to deaf PCs who want to use the canon Golarion sign language.Oh no! Imbalance? In Pathfinder?
:P
Is it?
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Whatever we do with sign language in Golarion, I don't want it to become the tactical must-have in the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild.
If it requires a free hand, it will never become the tactical must have. I would argue that while signing, the free hand is considered holding the signs. So it requires an additional hand with regard to spell casting for the verbal component to be signed.
So a caster attempting a signed charm spell would require two free hands (one to sign the verbal component and one for the somatic).
That alone is pretty harsh. Though regarding tactical must haves, having a shared language is always a tactical risk due to language dependent spells, like charm.
I really wish our PCs didn't require common. I'd prefer one Core race language of choice, instead. Definitely not a fan of humans being the most common race (it unbalances bane and ranger favored weapons).
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While these sound like good ideas, the only issue I see is that there aren't likely a lot of deaf heroes unless they choose to be deaf. Remove Deafness, cleric 3, cures even natural deafness, at least as written.
They could just be very frugal heroes. 150gp to remove.
I had a level 1 PC encounter a Darkness cleric NPC in a PFS session. Blindness as a level 2 spell is really harsh. That 50% miss chance was really annoying, not to mention all sorts of terrain related issues. I was luckly a barbarian, so I had lots of HP and when I did hit, it was very impressive.
If not for the level 1 re-build rules, I was very tempted to just leave the character blind and work the curse into my backstory. I could certainly just wait for a party member to be able to use it later on in my days as an adventurer. Plus immunity to gaze attacks (and rude gestures).
Regarding natural deafness,
Remove blindness/deafness cures blindness or deafness (your choice), whether the effect is normal or magical in nature. The spell does not restore ears or eyes that have been lost, but it repairs them if they are damaged
if the character naturally lacks eyes/ears (mutation, deformity, selective breeding, by divine design, ect), the spell won't have any effect.
It also won't help if their eyes/ears are removed (thinking of you, Diablo PVP item drops...).
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There are already examples of sign language being used by non-evil groups in fantasy. The wheel of time series has both the Maiden hand talk and the personal gestures a Seanchan High Blood uses to communicate with their voice.
And let's not forget The Black Company series by Glen Cook! There you've got characters who are deaf (Darling) and people who just choose not to speak (Silent), and the other characters just learn to sign to include them, without making a big deal out of it.
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Once again, I am seeing a request for Sign Language in PFS.
Is there any adaption or compromise we can make to allow sign language in PFS to be legalized?
Umh, There is already canon for this, especially for Pathfinder Society.
From the Golarian Wiki:
Sign languages
Several groups use sign and gesture languages to communicate. As deafness and muteness are unusually common among Varisians, many know a highly developed sign language; this method is also used by the Sczarni as a silent thieves' cant.[43]
Pathfinders also use their own sign language to silently communicate.[43]
43: Black Markets, page 24
Ranger Signs is a commonly used written and non-verbal language.
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There's been a precedent, but not an actual full on non-Drow sign language to my knowledge, the examples given in Black Markets are just vague callouts that say groups with a specific language get bonuses to pass certain messages to each other, there's not any thing actually listed. And the wiki is slightly exaggerating too, sadly.
A few groups use more specialized techniques. Druid criminals conspire in their secret Druidic language, whether peddling poisons and other natural wares or undermining the expansion of civilization from within. Drow and Pathfinders use different systems of hand gestures to avoid being overheard by enemies. Varisians likewise have a well-developed sign language to accommodate their unusually high populations of deaf or mute children, which the Sczarni have appropriated into their own silent thieves’ cant.
It'd be great to get the Varisian sign language made into an actual thing though.
That really isn't that vague. Black Markets explicitly says Varisian Sign is a thing which exists. It just needs to be given rules.
Here are the House-Rules I use for Lip Reading and Sign Languages:
Lip Reading
A character may learn the art of lip reading by selecting it as language known as if it were a spoken language. When reading the lips of a speaking creature within 10 feet in normal lighting conditions, the reader need not make a check. In situations of dim lighting, extreme distance, or to read the lips of someone trying to hide their words from the reader, the reader must make a Perception check (usually DC 5). When attempting to read the lips of someone trying to hide their words from the reader, the DC is equal to the result of a Slight of Hand check made by the whoever is trying to hide their words from the reader (this check may always be made untrained). A lip reader may only understand spoken words in a language it knows.
Sign Language
A character may learn forms of sign language (using hand gestures instead of vocalizations) in order to communicate covertly, with the deaf, or while under the effects of silence. Each form of sign language may be selected as a language known, as if it were a spoken language. A character may learn multiple types of sign language, and each type is considered its own language. There are no written forms of sign language. Using sign language always requires at least one free hand. Communicating using sign language within 10 feet and in normal lighting conditions is unrestricted. However, in situations of dim lighting, extreme distances, or other such circumstances creatures must usually make perception checks in order to perceive your attempts at communication (usually DC 5). Available sign languages in the Pathfinder campaign setting include:
o Drow Sign Language (B1 114)
o Flail Snail (B3 118)
o Pathfinder Sign Language (PCC: BM 24)
o Sakvroth (PC: ItD 3)
o Varasian Sign Language (PCC: BM 24)
Learning Lip Reading or Sign Languages
Humans, half-elves, half-orcs and other races which may also learn any language as a bonus language may select Lip Reading or any form of Sign Language as a bonus language; while members of other races must put a rank in Linguistics to do so. Any race which may learn Elven as a bonus language may also learn Drow Sign Language as a bonus language. Any race which has Darkvision may learn Sakvroth as a bonus language. Any character with the Deaf oracle's curse may select Varasian Sign Language as either their automatic language or as a bonus language, and may select Lip Reading as a bonus language.
I also wrote up Thieves Cant as a secret language, and a "Signed Spell" metamagic feat that replaces the Verbal Component of the spell with a second Somatic Component (which cannot be removed by Still Spell)
Sorry to necro, but I just couldn't help myself.
Worshiping an evil deity? Perfectly fine.
Speaking in sign language? Absolutely not! /s
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Sorry to necro, but I just couldn't help myself.
Worshiping an evil deity? Perfectly fine.
Speaking in sign language? Absolutely not! /s
Even we think it might have been better to let this one rest. Representation in RPGs is a pretty serious thing, and this issue (we believe) has been resolved appropriately.