Stacking Archetypes Using Feats


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Many class features can be gained through feats, particularly feats titled "Extra ...". My question is, can a feat be used to gain a feature lost to an archetype so a second archetype can stack.

For example, False Priest and Tattooed Sorcerer both trade out Eschew Materials, but if the character used his first level feat to gain Eschew Materials again, he has everything the second archetype needs.

The above may be pushing the line as the feat doesn't specifically grant class abilities, but using feats like Extra Rage Power, Extra Hex, Extra Arcanist Exploit, etc., certainly do.

If a feat isn't gained at the level of the class ability to be lost, retraining may be required.


RAW, no. You're trading class features, not feats, and not class features gained through feats.


You cannot take virtually all of those 'Extra...' feats without the class feature, as they usually have the class feature as a prerequisite for taking them. The idea that you get those class features from those feats is absolutely wrong.

You cannot stack archetypes that alter or remove that same class feature or ability.

There really is not any rules argument or interpretation here, but if you want to do this in your home games and your GM/players are fine with it, go right ahead.

Scarab Sages

Lamontius wrote:

You cannot take virtually all of those 'Extra...' feats without the class feature, as they usually have the class feature as a prerequisite for taking them. The idea that you get those class features from those feats is absolutely wrong.

You cannot stack archetypes that alter or remove that same class feature or ability.

There really is not any rules argument or interpretation here, but if you want to do this in your home games and your GM/players are fine with it, go right ahead.

There are long forum debates as to whether a character can take an "Extra ..." feat if he traded the first one out, some stating the class ability of ... is not traded out, just the specific ability chosen. E.g. A witch still has the Hex class feature even if she took an archetype that traded out the 1st level hex - a bit like a Ranger having 0 spells of a given level per day but a high ability score can grant more spells of that level.

You could break out the semantics saying it is an identical class feature but it is not the same - just like twins! So instead of trading the same class feature, two archetypes are trading identical class features.


as long as you are not a level 1 non-archetyped fighter taking "Extra Discovery" as a feat, then cool

and as long as you are not a level 1 non-archetyped alchemist taking "Extra Discovery" as a feat, then cool

because your first post sounded a lot like you think either of those is allowed by the rules

and finally, no, if you choose to roll a level 1 witch, select "Alley Witch" as an archetype that replaces the level 1 hex with a totally different non-hex ability...then no, you cannot take "Extra Hex" at level 1 because you do not yet possess the Hex Class Feature as a prerequisite

regardless, what you are trying to do with stacking archetypes in this way cannot be done while following the rules


class features =/= feats. While a feat may duplicate a class feature it remains a feat and not a class feature. they are not interchangable.

archetypes apply specifically and exclusively to class features.

PRD on archetypes wrote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the aura of justice class feature. A paladin could, however, be both an undead scourge and a warrior of the holy light, since none of their new class features replace the same core class feature.

Even if that argument fails I would be guided by this FAQ which states that some archetype powers are traded out non-parallel, so giving up a feat is not always equivalent to giving up a seemingly identical class feature.

Scarab Sages

Lamontius wrote:
regardless, what you are trying to do with stacking archetypes in this way cannot be done while following the rules

I get the impression that to keep the rules clear, muddying the archetype waters with feats becomes problematic (especially beyond 1st level) so they are not mentioned.


Horselord wrote:

My question is, can a feat be used to gain a feature lost to an archetype so a second archetype can stack.

No.


There is no rules question here.
To go back to your example, as simply as possible:

The two sorcerer archetypes (False Priest and Tattooed Sorcerer) both replace the Eschew Materials feat at level 1 and both replace the 9th level Bloodline power. So they don't stack. That is very clear from the PRD.

PRD - Class Archetypes - Alternate Class Features wrote:
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature.

Introducing a feat does not change what is written above. The two archetypes both replace the same two class features from the base class, so they do not stack.

As a Class Feature, "A sorcerer gains Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level." That is a sorcerer class feature, the addition of this specific bonus feat. It is listed under their Class Features section. If you replace that class feature via an archetype, cool. If you then say use your level 1 feat (or Human feat) to select Eschew Materials, cool. You now have the Eschew Materials feat, with the exact same usability as the bonus feat you would have gotten from your class feature. But this then is not the previously mentioned class feature. It is just a feat your character has selected. Your character has already given up that particular class feature.

Shadow Lodge

Horselord wrote:
There are long forum debates as to whether a character can take an "Extra ..." feat if he traded the first one out, some stating the class ability of ... is not traded out, just the specific ability chosen. E.g. A witch still has the Hex class feature even if she took an archetype that traded out the 1st level hex - a bit like a Ranger having 0 spells of a given level per day but a high ability score can grant more spells of that level.

Reasonable idea, but it was FAQ'd and a witch who gives up her first level hex doesn't have the 'hex' feature until level 2 (or whenever she actually gains her first hex).

I also agree with the "a feat is not a class feature" argument.

I would be willing to house-rule otherwise for reasonable combinations (just like I'd let someone take two archetypes that both added a class skill), but RAW this isn't allowed.


Whether feats can provide class features is immaterial to the question at hand (because Animal Ally suggests they can), as archetype compatibility is determined in a vacuum. They either are or aren't compatible period, it is not something determined by a given PC's current abilities.

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Horselord wrote:
feature lost to an archetype so a second archetype can stack.

If you traded out a class feature with one archetype, there is absolutely no way at all to stack a second archetype that modifies, alters, replaces, adds, removes, touches, glances at, kisses, drools at, or hugs that class feature.

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