RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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I would like to request that the unchained rogue be legally allowed to use the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype from Arcane Anthologies in PFS play.
Caveat: If the allowing the archetype for the unchained rogue is being reserved as a chronicle or boon reward, then see this a post of love for a cool, flavorful archetype.
Using Jiggy's excellent post that got Magical Knack legalized as the basis of the post and noting the copied premises below.
Premise: An option is banned only if it conflicts with the nature or goals of the campaign (unless it is reserved as a boon reward for later).
Premise: An unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel does not conflict with the nature or goals of the campaign.
Premise: The power increase of an unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel to a core rogue Eldritch Scoundrel is not greater than the power increase of an unchained rogue to core rogue for other archetypes.
Premise: The unchained rogue is not overpowered compared to other similar classes.
Conclusion: The unchained rogue should be allowed to take the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype.
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Reasoning:
Note, this is almost exactly what Jiggy posted nearly 3 years ago and noting that I am using his words here.
As I see it, there are two ways of looking at content legality in PFS.
One method is that nothing outside the Core Assumption is allowed, unless it appears to specifically benefit the campaign. That is, when a new book comes out, we "start" with everything banned, and then Mike looks through it and sees something and says "Hey, X would make the campaign better" and makes an exception for it (i.e., legalize it).
The other method is that new content is generally legal, unless it appears to specifically hurt the campaign. That is, when a new book comes out, we "start" with an assumption that its content will be legal, and then the OPC/PFS developers looks through it and sees something and says "Hey, X would cause problems with the campaign" and makes an exception for it (i.e., ban it).
It is my understanding that the latter is the stance of PFS leadership, hence Premise #1.
This section is also nearly word from word of Jiggy's argument, but repeating it as I believe this to be true for the Deep Marshall.
I am not aware of any aspect of the campaign with which an unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel conflicts.
It does not directly affect wealth.
It does not invite unregulated customization.
It does not skirt alignment restrictions.
It does not slow down gameplay.
It does not have canon issues.
It does not skirt PvP rules.
I contend that this is not the case. In fact, it cannot be this case because the Eldritch Scoundrel is legal for core rogues, and unchained rogues are legal, too, which means that both of the base parts do not conflict with the campaign system.
Thus, I contend that an unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel does not conflict with any aspect of the campaign.
If the unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel is to be considered overpowered over a core rogue Eldritch Scoundrel, then the comparison must be made across other archetypes using an unchained rogue vs core rogue.
Note: I am not good at number theory crafting, so this will be a bit more subjective than I prefer.
What an unchained rogue offers
The easy part of the comparison is that the unchained version of the rogue nearly just adds or improves the core rogue abilities. . Here is what is added in base abilities:
- Finesse Training (new): This single ability allows the unchained rogue greater combat ability by granting free weapon finesse and eventually Dex for damage for a weapon of the unchained rogue's choice.
- Sneak Attack (improved): While the core rogue has it, the wording for the unchained rogue works better as concealment no longer prevents sneak attack (total concealment still does).
- Rogue Talents (revised): Many core rogue talents were replaced, some new ones added, some removed for unchained rogue use, and others left unchanged and legal for unchained rogue use. Overall, I believe that the updated talents are an improvement over the core rogue talents (powerful sneak/deadly sneak, minor/major magic, and resiliency come to mind).
- Danger Sense (improved): A slightly improved version of trap sense and counts as trap sense for archetypes and prerequisites.
- Debilitating Injury (new): Another radical new ability that allows the unchained rogue her choice of scaling debuffs to apply when sneak attacking.
- Rogue's Edge (new): The last unique ability to unchained rogues is the ability to use the skill unlocks listed in Pathfinder Unchained. It scales slowly and in PFS, an unchained rogue will only unlock 2 skills in her normal career.
Listed here, there are three brand new abilities unchained rogues have over core rogues. As of the time of this post, there are not any rogue archetypes that replace these abilities. That means every single unchained rogue with an archetype will have those abilities over a core rogue with the same archetype. Since the unchained rogue is legal for those other archetypes, then it must be assumed that those abilities are not overpowered. Which means that if the unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel is to be considered too overpowered compared to a core rogue Eldritch Scoundrel, it must be one of the three remaining ability updates: sneak attack, rogue talents, and danger sense.
However, the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype affects all three of those abilities! The sneak attack and rogue talents are effectively cut in half and don't come online until level 3 and 4 respectively. If the unchained rogue's sneak attack and talents are deemed superior to the core rogues, the archetype actually affects the unchained rogue more negatively than the core rogue by restricting the more powerful abilities! Meanwhile, danger sense is replaced by a special magic only version of trap spotter. Again, replacing the (slightly) superior danger sense for the unchained rogue technically affects the unchained rogue more than the core rogue.
Thus, I conclude that the unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel is not vastly overpowered to the core rogue Eldritch Scoundrel as compared to other rogue archetypes that are legal for both the unchained rogue and core rogue.
The only other reason why the unchained rogue would be banned is if it was considered overpowered to other classes. As the comparison to rogues has already been made, I'll go with two other classes that will be most similar to it: wizard and magus.
Unchained Rogue Eldritch Scoundrel vs base wizard (no archetypes)
At level one, the unchained rogue will have the following class abilities/features over the wizard.
- 2 more skill points per level. Higher compared to a wizard, but worse than a rogue without an archetype.
- Higher HP: Always meaningful at the low levels.
- Better weapon proficiencies: While the wizard can only use five weapons, all simple weapons and a few specialty weapons are at your disposal.
- Finesse training: Free weapon finesse at level 1.
- Trapfinding: Bonus on finding and removing traps and can remove magical ones .
Meanwhile, the wizard has over the Eldritch Scoundrel:
- School powers: These vary by the specialized school, but it will vary from minor defensive buffs to some offensive abilities to supplant the low level spellcasting. In either case, it's another option for a wizard besides 'cast a spell' and 'hit things with a stick'. Also, unless you go universalist wizard, this means an extra spell per day, too, all at the cost of making some spells harder to cast.
- Free Spell Focus feat: From PFS rules, it replaces the Scribe Scroll feat you would gain, making your spells of choice harder to resist.
- Arcane bond: You get your choice of cool little intelligent companion that grants some passive buffs or the ability to get an extra spell cast per day.
Same between the two classes:
- Armor proficiency: Neither one can wear armor without risking arcane spell failure, nor have proficiency in any armor.
- Base spellcasting ability: Both classes can only cast a base single level 1 spell without having an high intelligence. Of course, a wizard can increase that based on school choice and arcane bond choice, but ignoring those abilities, both classes cast the same base number of spells from levels 1-2.
- Same starting initial BAB progression: From levels 1-2, both classes will have the same BAB score.
Comparing the two classes, the eldritch scoundrel will have more melee options thanks to finesse training, while the wizard can get more magical abilities and potentially more spellcasting.
Jumping to level 3, both classes begin to diverge greatly. The unchained Eldritch Scoundrel will get a far greater melee ability with another BAB increase, sneak attack, dexerity modifier to damage for a weapon of her choice, and effectively trap spotting for magical traps and 1 more level 1 spell/day over the base wizard spellcasting.
Meanwhile, the wizard will hit level 2 spellcasting. It doesn't seem like much as a single line, but the wizard will add 1-3 spells per day he can cast, at a minimum equaling the total number of spells per day as the Eldritch Scoundrel and more than likely being superior and that is not even counting the new spell options granted to the wizard. At this point, trade off between the two is melee options for the Eldritch Scoundrel for more powerful spells.
Level 4 is where the Eldritch Scoundrel arguably sees a power increase over a wizard. The Scoundrel now gets his level 2 spells, albeit wizard base spellcasting will have at least 1 more level 2 spell over the Eldritch Scoundrel. The Scoundrel, though, will get Debilitating Injury for a nice melee debuff and now get her first rogue talent for more supporting options.
But at level 5, the wizard takes the reigns once more and holds onto them for the rest of their career. The unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel will still have 1 more BAB over the wizard, more HP, and now gain a Skill Unlock, but the wizard gets 3rd level magic while the rogue will have to wait another 2 levels for such power wherein the wizard will be touting 4th level magic. And as a bit of extra icing on the cake, the wizard also gets a bonus feat, too (which could arguably be seen as equal to the Skill Unlock the unchained Eldritch Scoundrel gets).
Thus, I believe that the two classes are somewhat equal at low levels before the wizard's greater spellcasting ability will significantly overshadow what the unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel can do. The Eldritch Scoundrel will have better melee abilities than the wizard to make up for the weaker spellcasting.
Unchained Rogue Eldritch Scoundrel vs base magus
The comparison here will be easier to account as both use the same spellcasting progression and have the same HD and BAB increase. Thus, looking at the initial abilities at level 1
unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel over base magus
- More skill points: Same as the wizard, the Eldritch Scoundrel will enjoy 2 more skill points over the magus.
- Finesse Training: Free weapon finesse and eventual Dex to damage.
- Trapfinding: To find and remove those hard to get to traps, including magical ones.
Base magus over unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel
- Better saves: The magus has 2 high saves versus the rogue's single.
- Better armor profiencies: Can wear light armor and cast spells in it, too.
- Better weapon proficiencies: All martial weapons encompasses what the rogue can use and then some.
- Arcane pool: A scaling buff to the magus' weapon
- Spell combat: Two weapon fighting where one of the weapons is a spell.
Comparable between the two classes:
- Spell list: The magus has a smaller spell list, but has plenty of solid offensive spells and will get some spells at a lower spell level as compared to when the Eldritch Scoundrel will get it. The Eldritch Scoundrel, though, will have a far wider spell selection at her disposal.
In this case, at level 1, the magus is more melee suitable with better weapon and armor choices as well as the ability to buff the weapon right at the get go. The magus will have spell combat, but the accuracy hit at level 1 is noteworthy. The Eldritch Scoundrel has more skill options and gets a bonus feat effectively. At level 1, I call it a wash between the two classes.
At level 2, the magus is superior offensively with spellstrike being added. The Eldritch Scoundrel only gets evasion. Magus is superior at this point.
Level 3, it balances out with the unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel now having Dex to Damage and sneak attack while the magus gets his first magus arcana to enhance his abilities. These vary, but effectively, I see the two classes as closer to equal at level 3.
Level 4 is similar as the unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel gets Debilitating Injury as a debuff and her first rogue talent while the magus gets Spell Recall to improve his spellcasting potential.
From this point on, the magus slowly gets more unique abilities while the unchained rogue only gets a skill unlock for something unique. The magus offensive power goes up with the arcane pool becoming more powerful, heavier armor potential, and bonus feats while the unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel will just add to the sneak attack dice and rogue talents.
Overall, while I see the magus as somewhat superior offensively due to spellstrike and better defenses, the Eldritch Scoundrel has more passive abilities that will remain useful if spellcasting is not an option. The Eldritch Scoundrel will also have a better choice of spells to choose from as well.
Note: It should be mentioned that in fact a core rogue eldritch scoundrel would be incredibly underpowered compared to a core rogue without an archetype at levels 1 and 2. It would be an inferior wizard or magus without any other class abilities excepts casting 1-2 level 1 spells and some cantrips. Even at level 2, the only thing gained would be evasion (a passive, defensive abilitiy) and another level 1 spell, making it far weaker than the wizard in spell potential, having the same BAB as the wizard, the lack of school powers, and the lack of an arcane bond. Compared to the magus, the magus is better armored, and will have spellstrike and spell combat come online at that point as well as the arcane pool ability to enhance his weapons. And without the unchained rogue abilities that keep the Eldritch Scoundrel capable compared to those two classes, the core rogue Eldritch Scoundrel is markedly inferior.
Thus, comparing the unchained rogue Eldritch Scoundrel to a base wizard and base magus, I contend that it is not overpowered compared to the other two classes.
With all those premises made, I conclude that the Eldritch Scoundrel should be a legal archetype for the unchained rogue to take.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16
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Honestly, I don't know how it could be written for core rogues only. As I noted above, a core rogue is incredibly underpowered as an Eldritch Scoundrel. In fact, a core rogue Eldritch Scoundrel is only a couple steps above the adept NPC class for the first 2 levels.
As far as dipping: three level is a heavy dip for most classes/builds. Compared to dipping three into a base unchained rogue, the trade-offs would be around 4 level 1 spells per day, the cantrips, and trap spotter for magical traps versus 1d6 sneak attack, a rogue talent of your choosing, and 12 skill ranks. While the magical potential should be noted, it's comparable to a 2 level dip into fighter to get the bonus feats for Dervish Dance and a single level dip into wizard.
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3 levels is hardly a dip. My thought is that it's an upgrade over Sorc until level 6, but even that is a bit simplistic and ignores the problems with Sorcs in general.
Honestly, though, I don't see why we can't just disavow the core rogue at this point. I am in favor of unchaining the Eldritch Scoundrel.
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I was initially leery of this request. But after reading and considering the arguments presented, I have changed my mind. I would like to see an Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel.
I have looked at the arguments as well. I agree that the Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel should be let in. The new standard should really be the well executed and written up Unchained Rogue.
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and half the sneak attack/talentsA feat would get you the sneak attack of rogue until level 9? ish . There aren't a lot of good talents, so thats hardly a loss. For a ninja thats a small price to pay for a huge ki pool you can dump charisma to have.
Which feat would that be?
The closest one I know of would still leave the PC lagging a regular Rogue by one level...
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You could get 1d6 extra sneak attack with the feat at 3rd level, and keep pace with the standard rogue... until 5th level? And then you're 1d6 behind the rogue until 9th, at which point you're 2d6 points behind. After having spent a feat, which can't be taken twice.
The deal with the ninja class is interesting, but ninja do other things, like have a full sneak attack progression, and are also based on the chained rogue... I could see this being the reason, but the ninja's different enough and weak enough that would disagree with it if that were the rationale.
I looked over the ninja tricks... I haven't played one, so not a lot of subsystem mastery here, but the only thing I saw that seemed particularly exploitable with a large Ki pool was choking bomb, and that's... not all that wonderful, and requires three ninja tricks? I'm not seeing much here.
There are a couple of things that get you early access to spell effects via SLAs, but they're not earth-shatteringly good. At 4th level you could get early access to Mirror Image for the cost of a 1st-level spell slot, and the talent or feat you spent to get it. That seems like a reasonable return on investment... but not broken, at least not to me?
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I think he's saying that being able to take a ninja trick to pick up vanishing trick is too good? Which confuses me, at fourth level (when the ES gets its first talent) an eldritch scoundrel will have 4-5 1st level spells, which is about on par with a ninja, and also isn't really all that game breaking, in my opinion.
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and half the sneak attack/talentsA feat would get you the sneak attack of rogue until level 9? ish . There aren't a lot of good talents, so thats hardly a loss. For a ninja thats a small price to pay for a huge ki pool you can dump charisma to have.Which feat would that be?
The closest one I know of would still leave the PC lagging a regular Rogue by one level...
Also curious as to which feat BNW is referring to.
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I think he's saying that being able to take a ninja trick to pick up vanishing trick is too good? Which confuses me, at fourth level (when the ES gets its first talent) an eldritch scoundrel will have 4-5 1st level spells, which is about on par with a ninja, and also isn't really all that game breaking, in my opinion.
Right, but what happens when the eldritch scoundrel is level 4 and has 6 per day, or level 7 with 11 per day? the more i look at this the more it looks like a better unchained ninja than the unchained ninja.
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Ahh, so you are comparing spells to ki pool, correct? Just want to make sure I have this correct.
If a talent requires her to expend points from her ki pool, she can instead expend a spell slot with a spell level equal to the number of ki points she would normally expend. If a talent functions only if she has ki in her ki pool, it functions as long as she still has a spell of 1st level or higher prepared.
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I've been in favor of Unchaining this archetype from the start, because as is the archetype sacrifices so much as is that without the buff Unchained gives rogues the archetype will be an absolute slog for levels (at least until 3rd when it gets actual active class features that aren't spells). I know because I'm running one in a home campaign, and even Unchained these first few levels are almost more perilous than being a Wizard, as I'm basically just a Wizard with less spells and more accurate weapon attacks.
I can understand some people being wary of Spell Slots as Ki Pool, but I don't see it as a massive problem. At most, you gain a dependable way of sneak attacking via vanishing trick. With your diminished sneak attack. Conceivably you could use touch spells like some mobile magus type, but that just drains your 'ki pool' even faster. This is almost completely unaffected by Unchained.
The most inherently imbalanced option for Eldritch Scoundrels (Greater Invis Vanishing Trick) will be unavailable until Seeker level play.
Sometimes I can understand why something gets the banhammer, like Monster Tactician. or Cult Master. Other times, I'd just like a look at the thought process that leads to the restrictions so I don't get my hopes up in future.
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Remember the text of the ability:
If a talent requires her to expend points from her ki pool, she can instead expend a spell slot with a spell level equal to the number of ki points she would normally expend. If a talent functions only if she has ki in her ki pool, it functions as long as she still has a spell of 1st level or higher prepared.
Vanishing Trick costs 1 ki point, so it can be replaced by an uncast first-level spell. It doesn't say anything about being able to use it with second-level spells... and sure, that's 4-5 times per day at level 4-5 when you're likely to get the trick, but at that point you've essentially traded away all of your spellcasting to be able to vanish as a swift action, all so you can do 2d6 points of damage + dex to damage without getting hit in the interim, for 4-5 rounds?
A magus can wear armor and do the same damage at second level with Shocking Grasp and one of the Grace (slashing or fencing) feats. A rogue or ninja, even chained, would add a d6 of damage to that if they were flanking, not to mention debilitating injury if you're unchained. They'll get hit a little more because they're not invisible but it doesn't seem game-breaking.
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Remember the text of the ability:
If a talent requires her to expend points from her ki pool, she can instead expend a spell slot with a spell level equal to the number of ki points she would normally expend. If a talent functions only if she has ki in her ki pool, it functions as long as she still has a spell of 1st level or higher prepared.Vanishing Trick costs 1 ki point, so it can be replaced by an uncast first-level spell. It doesn't say anything about being able to use it with second-level spells...
Just memorize a boatload of 1st level spells in second level slots. Or third level. Quickened vanish is still a good option.
Or hell, Buy a pearl of power after every session.
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and half the sneak attack/talentsA feat would get you the sneak attack of rogue until level 9? ish . There aren't a lot of good talents, so thats hardly a loss. For a ninja thats a small price to pay for a huge ki pool you can dump charisma to have.
Accomplished Sneak Attacker would only get you up to a fifth level rogues sneak attack at ninth level. Which if you're all in investing into Vanishing trick then Weapon Die + Dex + 3d6 once a round is not all that impressive at ninth level. Let's say a rogue with 24 dex does this with an ECB. 1d10 plus 10 plus 3d6 is about 20-25 damage on average per attack, which wouldn't be bad if you could hit something more than once a round, it certainly won't help you win the damage race in a 7-11.
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And on top of that, the wording specifically calls out spell slots, not spells memorized--you're stuck investing in the Pearls of Power. Or a Ring of Wizardry if you're crazy.
I think the vanish/sneak build might be unique to this archetype (in that it's effective) from 4th to 6th level, but at 7th your competition becomes a 7th level melee-build wizard with Greater Invisibility and Sense Vitals. Not that it's a perfect match, but it's pretty close. And that wizard would probably rather cast haste than try to set herself up for an invisible sneak attack.
I certainly haven't seen that build used before, which suggests that either there's a serious lack of vision in my local PFS community, or it's simply not that strong of a tactic.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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If I'm interpreting this correctly, the Eldrich Scoundrel using Unchained Rogue doesn't have a Ki pool, nor could they get it because it is not one of the Unchained Rogue talents.
They could do the vanish trick exactly as many times as they have 1st level spells available. Vanish is a first level spell. Sounds to me like this is slightly less useful than being able to spontaneously cast vanish. I don't see anything that allows them to use a higher level slot to pay the cost -- only to say that they still have points in their Ki pool.
With the changes that this archetype does, are there any other rogue archetypes that work with it?
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With the changes that this archetype does, are there any other rogue archetypes that work with it?
Only Investigator as far as I can tell.
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If I'm interpreting this correctly, the Eldrich Scoundrel using Unchained Rogue doesn't have a Ki pool, nor could they get it because it is not one of the Unchained Rogue talents.
They could do the vanish trick exactly as many times as they have 1st level spells available. Vanish is a first level spell. Sounds to me like this is slightly less useful than being able to spontaneously cast vanish. I don't see anything that allows them to use a higher level slot to pay the cost -- only to say that they still have points in their Ki pool.
With the changes that this archetype does, are there any other rogue archetypes that work with it?
Bret, you can use higher level spell slots to prep first level spells.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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Bret, you can use higher level spell slots to prep first level spells.
Yes, I know.
That is why the Ki ability is less useful than spells. It doesn't have any language allowing you to use a higher level spell for something that costs less Ki than the level of the spell. As written, you can only use the Vanish trick as many times as you've first level spells, whereas if casting the spell you could use those higher level slots.
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Bret, you can use higher level spell slots to prep first level spells.Yes, I know.
That is why the Ki ability is less useful than spells. It doesn't have any language allowing you to use a higher level spell for something that costs less Ki than the level of the spell. As written, you can only use the Vanish trick as many times as you've first level spells, whereas if casting the spell you could use those higher level slots.
We're getting away from the point that Vanishing Strike and the other Ki-based ninja tricks don't break the unchained ES.
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How about the comparison of a dervish dancer bard to the unchained eldritch scoundrel. As two 6 level casters who focus on dexterity, they're actually a pretty close comparison.
The Bard gains 6+int skill ranks per level while the Rogue gains 4+int skill ranks per level, on an int based casting, so things come out a wash here. The Rogue gains Trapfinding, while the bard gains bardic performance (countersong, distraction, fascinate), I'd say advantage Bard. The Rogue gains weapon finesse as a bonus feat, the bard gains dervish dance as a bonus feat, once again advantage bard, gaining dex to damage 2 levels earlier. The bard gains battle dance, enhancing bardic performance to start as a move action, and provides +2 to attack and damage, rogue has no equivalent power at this level. Both gain cantrips and 1st level spells, rogue has a wider range of spells to choose while the bard has early access to certain spells, so a slight advantage to the rogue. Both have bad fort and good reflex saves, bard has good will, rogue has bad will, so advantage bard. All in all, bard looks to be a much stronger character at level 1.
Overall the two classes don't compete very well, bard usually gains advantages earlier, with the rogue playing catch up, with debilitating injury being the only thing that gives it a noticeable advantage over the bard across 11 levels. You can argue that the rogue might have the better spell list, but bard casting is by no means poor, gaining a number of key buff spells early, or at all, in the case of Good Hope. The bard also has the potential to grab one of the rogues better class features with a 2nd level spell, gaining 1d6 sneak attack per 3 levels, which is better than the sneak attack progression an eldritch scoundrel will get. Meanwhile the rogue will have a hard time equaling the advantages that bardic performance provides, even with skill unlocks and debilitating strikes. Without them, the only reason to play an eldritch scoundrel is the vanish trick for sneak attack once a round for # of 1st level spell slots per day, which is actually a fairly poor trade off.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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At work so I can't add much, but the comparison to the dervish dancer made me think of the 'other' greedy bard.
The Archaeologist.
Luck is (situationally) more powerful than bardic performance. especially if you burn the feat and trait combo. While delayed, the Archaeologist gets trapfinding, evasion, and some rogue talents. (5 over 20 levels)
He also gets better saves.
Time to unchain the Eldritch scoundrel.
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At work so I can't add much, but the comparison to the dervish dancer made me think of the 'other' greedy bard.
The Archaeologist.
Luck is (situationally) more powerful than bardic performance. especially if you burn the feat and trait combo. While delayed, the Archaeologist gets trapfinding, evasion, and some rogue talents. (5 over 20 levels)
He also gets better saves.
Time to unchain the Eldritch scoundrel.
My most recent PFS character is an Archaeologist bard, specifically because Eldritch Scoundrel remains chained only. Comparing my original hypothetical build, which did was an unchained Eldritch Scoundrel, my Archaeologist bard is in fact superior in almost every area.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My most recent PFS character is an Archaeologist bard, specifically because Eldritch Scoundrel remains chained only. Comparing my original hypothetical build, which did was an unchained Eldritch Scoundrel, my Archaeologist bard is in fact superior in almost every area.
*nods* I've played two archaeologists to 10th and 11th level, and their versatility is incredible. I could just make an updated archaeologist but the Sorc/Wiz list and prep casting would be new and different.
Oh and let' not forget the Archaeologist gets cast in light armor and uncanny dodge too.
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Given the recent developments with Fencing Grace, I think they've made their position on Dex-based Gishes clear.
To be fair, the fencing grace change really only hurts magi. Bards, eldritch knights, urban bloodragers, and the like can all likely use fencing grace with little effect on their character. It's the specific limitation that spell combat can't be used that's really inconvenient for the magus. Most other classes are really only hampered if they're holding a wand in one hand and their weapon in the other. Otherwise they cast as normal, using fencing grace as normal. So it's really just that they don't like dex based magi, or at least dex to damage based magi.
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I don'the think that it's particularly necessary, especially since there are some pretty good options that can go along with Eldritch scoundrel. My next PFS character is going to be a chained Eldritch Scoundrel 4 / Arcane Trickster X. Dex to damage would be nice, but it is not character breaking. Having to take Weapon Finesse smarts, but meh, it's not the end of the world.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Amusingly the Warlock does everything I want out of the Unchained Scoundrel, except evasion, and has that pesky dual identity thing (which gets even weirder with the warlock, since the spells aren't vigilante talents)
And you can, in theory slashing grace the melee spell bolt too, I think. In fact, since spells are an option, it's not like the unchained scoundrel is going to be as ready to do TWF dex to damage.
Unchain the Scoundrel!