Gestalt class

[Falcona]

What would be the best gestalted fighter /healer combo. and traits or feats for such combo. Thank you for any help you can give.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Paladin/Life Oracle- You can out heal anyone. You can fight really evil things better than anyone else. Your saves are ridiculous. Your action economy is amazing and your stats all overlap to make a very strong character.

or

Cleric/Druid- Doesn't seem too fighter like till you drop those sweet buffs on your wildshape. Double Full 9th level caster lists. Fully Leveled Animal Companion. This will be really hard to stop.

or

Monk/Druid- This thing already gets stupidly insane as just a multiclass. Make it full progression of both classes and things will die before you.

[miscdebris]

I've been kicking around a dex based Half-Elf Fighter (Lore Warden, Martial Master)/Warpriest (Arsenal Chaplain) for very feat heavy builds. It's the only way I've found to get Weapon Training and Martial Flexibility and be worth it. Plus, as a half-elf, you can Paragon surge to pickup General Feats too. Maybe I'll stick a pair of Monk (Maneuver Master) on there too, not sure which side though.

[Atarlost]

The only comprehensive healers are cleric and healing patron witch. (I'd previously misremembered which spell shamans can't get: it's remove disease, not the usual remove blindness/deafness.)

You can do a druid/shaman gestalt using the life spirit and get everything on schedule, but shaman is bad at adding combat ability to a druid. If you go battle spirit (with wandering used exclusively on life to have the restoration line, breath of life, and heal available on schedule) you can boost accuracy, but with a charisma based ability and battle druids must dump charisma. Without that you don't get an accuracy boost until level 9 because shamans lack divine favor and for some inexplicable reason don't get it as the most obvious possible first level spell for the battle spirit.

So, since clerics can cast in heavy armor and witches can't you'll be a cleric. Clerics want full BAB, a better reflex save, and ideally more skill points.

Cleric//Unmonk is probably the best option. You worship Irori, because of course you worship Irori. Other gods might be more optimal, but Irori is more monky and you're already playing gestalt. Your domains are Strength(ferocity) and Healing. You're just going to prepare strength domain spells apart from Breath of Life and Heal, which you want anyways. Your dexterity should be at least 12 and preferably 14 (you will take combat reflexes as a monk bonus feat, but want to still get a bonus AoO when enlarged), enough constitution to not die, 13 or 14 strength, and otherwise crank wisdom as much as humanly possible while dumping charisma all the way and intelligence as far as you have to (hopefully not below 10, but you need that wisdom). Take Channel Smite, Guided Hand, Power Attack, Mantis Style, and Mantis Wisdom with your general feats up to level 7, followed by whatever you feel you need. Your monk bonus feats are Combat Reflexes at 2, an Improved Trip at 6, and Medusa's Wrath at 10. You should be a human to get Guided Hand at level 1. Your stats to boost with items are wisdom first and then dexterity. Your damage will be a little light, but you have excellent defenses and can make it up on volume (Flurry and AoOs and later Medusa's Wrath) and versatility. Note that in a flurry "these attacks" that can only be made with unarmed strikes and monk weapons are grammatically the bonus attacks, not the attacks you're entitled to for your BAB. If you have one enemy in your natural reach and another in range of your longspear you should be able to make attacks at full BAB, BAB-5, BAB-10, and BAB-15 as provided by your BAB as well as any bonus attack from Haste with the longspear at the opponent at long reach and make the bonus attack(s) from Flurry with your unarmed strikes against the opponent at short reach.

[Weirdo]

I second Cleric//UnMonk of Irori as the best at being both a fighter and a healer. You get the best access to various condition-removing spells, good HP healing (especially with the Healing domain), full BAB and d10 HD, lots of combat features and buffs, the mobility to easily cross the battlefield to attack or heal, and good Wis synergy.

Atarlost's build suggestion is a pretty good one, though if you have good stats (at least 20 point buy, preferably 25 or higher) you can make a more traditional combat build, saving two feats on Guided Hand. Build mostly like an Unchained Monk (this guide is pretty good - take an especially close look at the Stone Dragon and Deathstrike Mantis example builds and note that you can skip Iron Will and the Restoration ki power). Buff like a support/battle cleric. Consider Merciful Healer in lieu of a combat-focused second domain, depending on how high a priority healing is for you.

Paladin//Life Oracle is also very good, though it could use a secondary healer to help out with unusual condition removal like Remove Disease.

[My Self]

Don't go base Cleric. Unless you're really itching for simple weapons, take Evangelist, Ecclesiastheurge, Herald Caller, or Devout Pilgrim. Ecclesiastheurge or Devout Pilgrim might be a better healer than Merciful Healer if you pick up the Restoration subdomain powers- you can cover most status effects fairly easily, without sacrificing too much combat prowess. It's not quite as powerful of a healer, but it is much more versatile and lets you pick other domains.

[Josh-o-Lantern]

I'm personally a huge fan of Bard/Paladin. Between bard spells and Lay on Hands you'll have plenty of healing. Back it up wth a Wand of Cure Light and you're good to go while being one of, if not the best buffers while boasting an impressive 13+int skills!

[Atarlost]

Bard//Paladin lacks adequate access to condition removal.

Weirdo's Oracle//Paladin suggestion is almost adequate. The third level remove X crunch is still bad, but with remove disease from a mercy you can cover things a mere two levels late instead of four, and remove curse may be supplied by a wizard as a stopgap. You won't be doing much else on the oracle side, though, for lack of spells known. I can't find any mystery that has both a spamworthy mystery spell at level 3 and revelations useful for a combatant or healer. You'll wind up pretty much just a bare paladin as far as offense goes. That's fine if you're mostly fighting evil, but it's not great by gestalt standards.

I also don't agree on avoiding base cleric. Evangelist requires charisma, which you can otherwise dump and loses spontaneous cures. Ecclesiastheurge gives up the valuable longspear proficiency. Stat consolidation eats too many early feats to make up the proficiency, Irori doesn't have three domains the build would want, and the only domain spell that isn't on the cleric list is first level. You can wand it or use cheap pearls of power. The other abilities do not benefit the desired role.
The Devout Pilgrim either requires selecting a thematically incompatible deity or giving up one of your domains and the archetype abilities, though favorable exchanges, are also not useful for a battle cleric or healer.

The OP's goal is a fighter healer and casting or support archetypes don't bring him any closer, even if the trades are favorable in a vacuum.

[My Self]

Yes, but you have a monk base for proficiencies. Longspears are nice for control, but I'd assume you want to flurry, which requires multiple feats to even begin to attempt with a longspear. UMonk has better flurry weapons than an unarmed strike. Ecclesiastheurge makes you a better caster and gives you the option to spontaneously cast any single spell you know. Plus, you can swap out the spells on one of your domains, so you can pick a domain with good powers and bad spells. And on top of that, you get a magical amulet at 1/2 cost.

[Athaleon]

Evangelist's weapon proficiencies are unaffected, and it can get away with 10 CHA since that only costs it a few rounds of performance. It doesn't actually need to take Perform: Oratory since the only Evangelist performance that it affects is Countersong. Loss of spontaneous Cures does hurt it as a healer though.

Herald Caller gives up one domain and armor proficiency, but gains all the Summoning it needs for free, while retaining full Channel progression and spontaneous cures. Summoning is great in general, and starting around Summon Monster 4, Good outsiders get healing abilities which they can use on the party if they have a few rounds left after the fight ends (or when the fight is all but over).

[Atarlost]

Control and flurry are not mutually exclusive. A monk can make unarmed strikes without caring what's in his hands and can make AoOs with a longspear while flurrying with his unarmed strike. He can do this out of the box. The -4 nonproficiency penalty without getting simple weapon proficiency elsewhere makes it not very effective.

The domain switch is of no benefit here because there aren't domains with good spells and bad powers available to Irori. There aren't many such domains in general that can't be fixed by choosing a subdomain. Preparing domain spells in non-domain slots is only useful for domains heavy on non-cleric spells, none of which are useful to a martially oriented cleric.

So you get a bonded item in exchange for giving up free battlefield control. You're giving up action economy for a little bit of saved cash. Action economy is achilles heel of gestalt builds and a cheaper trinket is not anywhere near worth giving up the ability to mitigate that.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Athaleon wrote:

Evangelist's weapon proficiencies are unaffected, and it can get away with 10 CHA since that only costs it a few rounds of performance. It doesn't actually need to take Perform: Oratory since the only Evangelist performance that it affects is Countersong. Loss of spontaneous Cures does hurt it as a healer though.

Herald Caller gives up one domain and armor proficiency, but gains all the Summoning it needs for free, while retaining full Channel progression and spontaneous cures. Summoning is great in general, and starting around Summon Monster 4, Good outsiders get healing abilities which they can use on the party if they have a few rounds left after the fight ends (or when the fight is all but over).

100% agree with the Break down of the Evangelist.

It is a KNOWN FACT that Evangelist, Herald Caller, and Ecclesiastheurge are strict upgrades from Core/Base Cleric.

Other than a hangover cleric build do you EVER take more than a 10-12 Cha. EVER. And I highly recommend taking Variant Channeling and throw Channeling to the Wind as the sub par ability that it is. By level 13 you can be Performing and Flurry of Blows in a single round...buffing yourself and your team mates. Beyond Bardic performance...you do not need many other buffs besides Protection based buffs. (Resist energy, Protection from Evil, Death ward, Life Bubble.)

You could mega buff if you want but it would just be overkill. I recommend the Travel domain and going down the Dimensional Agility Line. You will have crazy good movement to get where you need to be. This saves you from taking abundant step and the Speed Ki Powers. Your movement will be good enough to warrant Flying kick at 5 instead of level 9. Monk Movement + Travel domain...Yikes...50ft of movement Level 1 only to get higher and higher. If you planned Dragon style then Trade up to the Exploration Sub domain of Travel and pick up Door Sight. Door sight is amazing for exploring...know whats behind the door before you open it. Later levels you get the ability to fly and teleport...most monks dream of such luxuries.

[Weirdo]

I am a huge fan of Ecclesitheurge, but I agree with Atarlost that it's not the best choice for this particular concept.

The loss of the domain for Herald Caller, the loss of the domain and spontaneous casting of cure spells for the Evangelist, and the lack of suitable deities for Devout Pilgrim would also make these archetypes less desirable for this specific character than the base cleric. Remember, the best way to build this is with the Healing domain (ideally Restoration subdomain) and a more combat-focused domain such as Strength. If you only get one domain, you give up either healing or combat ability in exchange for something that the OP is potentially not interested in.

If OP does have priorities other than maximizing healing and fighting performance, now would be a good time to mention it.

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

It is a KNOWN FACT that Evangelist, Herald Caller, and Ecclesiastheurge are strict upgrades from Core/Base Cleric.

Very good archetypes, yes. Overall better, possibly. But a strict upgrade is better in every way, and these archetypes do have disadvantages compared to the base cleric. For example, not being able to spontaneously cast Cure spells is a disadvantage when you want to heal without having to prepare a lot of Cures you may or may not need. It is an especially relevant disadvantage when you are interested in playing a good healer.

Atarlost wrote:

Weirdo's Oracle//Paladin suggestion is almost adequate. The third level remove X crunch is still bad, but with remove disease from a mercy you can cover things a mere two levels late instead of four, and remove curse may be supplied by a wizard as a stopgap. You won't be doing much else on the oracle side, though, for lack of spells known. I can't find any mystery that has both a spamworthy mystery spell at level 3 and revelations useful for a combatant or healer. You'll wind up pretty much just a bare paladin as far as offense goes. That's fine if you're mostly fighting evil, but it's not great by gestalt standards.

For the Paladin//Life Oracle, the big advantage is efficient HP restoration. Using Life Link, Lay on Hands, and Fey Foundling, you can absorb damage from your party and heal yourself as a swift action. You also have far superior channeling ability due to high Cha and can get Channel Positive as an oracle revelation in addition to the costly paladin version. Combat Healer lets you Quicken cure spells by spending two slots, and Enhanced Cures makes your low-level Cure spells more effective. HP healing in-combat is often derided, but done right it can be massively effective, as in "eating full attacks from a dragon for breakfast."

Condition removal is definitely an issue, which was why I recommended trying to get a secondary healer to help out with that. The Alchemist is a likely candidate since despite not typically being cast as the "healer" they can (with a little cash) get Remove Disease, Remove Blindness/Deafness, and Remove Curse all at character level 7. The Life Mystery includes most other significant condition removal spells (Lesser Restoration, Neutralize Poison, Restoration, Heal, Breath of Life, Greater Restoration, Mass Heal, True Resurrection) and you get Cure spells known for free, so you can use your actual spells known for combat buffs, which does put you ahead of the plain paladin in combat. You don't get the Bad Punch debuffing fun of the Cleric//UnMonk, but you'd still dominate when Smite comes into play.

If you want a bit more fighting you can also take the Spirit Guide archetype to access the shaman's Battle Spirit, trading revelations for the Battle Master hex, additional combat-oriented spells known (including Enlarge Person), a modest morale bonus to attack and damage (for you and allies), and the ability to put Bane on your weapon as a swift action. And you can switch out this spirit daily if something else is temporarily useful - including taking the Life Spirit to temporarily pick up revelations you passed up for the Spirit Guide archetype.

So while overall I'd probably go with the Cleric//UnMonk, depending on the party and campaign the Paladin//Life Oracle could be a superior choice.

[Kryzbyn]

Anyone ever paladin/inquisitor gestalted?
Seems 40k-ish.

[Renegadeshepherd]

What I'm about to tell you will absolutely break the game....

Herald caller cleric into envoy of balance/hospitalier paladin. Swift heal yourself, move/and or standard action channel from two sources. Still better is that when envoy of balance kicks in you can hurt enemies while your channeling to heal as move and/or standard. Your slightly mad but charisma is all you truly have to have high because your BAB and smite makes you viable in melee even without a super high strength. Your wisdom only needs to be high enough level 9 spells when you get there. Your healing is ridiculous so you lower constitution to a 12 or 13 if need be. In short unless something can outright kill you in a single turn before your move you will be unkillable.

[Deadmanwalking]

Atarlost wrote:

Bard//Paladin lacks adequate access to condition removal.

Weirdo's Oracle//Paladin suggestion is almost adequate. The third level remove X crunch is still bad, but with remove disease from a mercy you can cover things a mere two levels late instead of four, and remove curse may be supplied by a wizard as a stopgap. You won't be doing much else on the oracle side, though, for lack of spells known. I can't find any mystery that has both a spamworthy mystery spell at level 3 and revelations useful for a combatant or healer. You'll wind up pretty much just a bare paladin as far as offense goes. That's fine if you're mostly fighting evil, but it's not great by gestalt standards.

This isn't necessarily true. the Spirit Guide archetype can provide some very solid offense to even a life Oracle. Or some additional condition removal/healing to a more combat focused one.

Toss on Paladin and it gets...impressive.

[GeneMemeScene]

The Oradin idea can be done quite similarly as a Warpriest/Shaman.

[My Self]

GeneMemeScene wrote:

The Oradin idea can be done quite similarly as a Warpriest/Shaman.

But you lose out on full BAB, CHA to all saves, Smite Evil, and a good action economy. Warpriests have a tight enough action economy as is, they don't need Shaman to clutter it further. Paladin and Oracle action economies are separate enough to be combined, whereas Warpriest is much more of a caster than Paladin and thus their standard actions will compete with Shaman standard actions.

Plus, Warpriest are not as good at self-healing as Paladins, and Shamans are not as good at healing as Oracles. Combine the two, and you have a decidedly worse dedicated healer.

[Renegadeshepherd]

Kryzbyn wrote:

Anyone ever paladin/inquisitor gestalted?

Seems 40k-ish.

I have and it is BRUTALLY effective against evil beings. Bane plus smite plus in combo with those high saves and stalwart makes you practically unkillable from anything that offers a save. If it suffers anywhere it's that he isn't a switch hitter but he can be if you work at it.

[My Self]

Renegadeshepherd wrote:

Kryzbyn wrote:

Anyone ever paladin/inquisitor gestalted?

Seems 40k-ish.

I have and it is BRUTALLY effective against evil beings. Bane plus smite plus in combo with those high saves and stalwart makes you practically unkillable from anything that offers a save. If it suffers anywhere it's that he isn't a switch hitter but he can be if you work at it.

Sounds like a 5-stat character, which probably hurts in point buy.

I wonder how well a Paladin//Investigator would do.

[fel_horfrost]

What about a paladin/warpriest? Full bab, two pools of spells, double weapon enchantment pools armor enchantment tons of feats. Amazing saves.
Swift action buffing.
Personifies battle cleric to me.

[Deadmanwalking]

My Self wrote:

Renegadeshepherd wrote:

Kryzbyn wrote:

Anyone ever paladin/inquisitor gestalted?

Seems 40k-ish.

I have and it is BRUTALLY effective against evil beings. Bane plus smite plus in combo with those high saves and stalwart makes you practically unkillable from anything that offers a save. If it suffers anywhere it's that he isn't a switch hitter but he can be if you work at it.

Sounds like a 5-stat character, which probably hurts in point buy.

I wonder how well a Paladin//Investigator would do.

In Full Plate, the Inquisitor//Paladin is more of a 4-stat character.

With 20 point-buy and Human, you can easily have:

Str 18 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 7 Wis 14 Cha 14

I'd never play that, but then I never dump Int. It's a solid build mechanically, if only average on skills. If you drop Str to 16, Int can go up to 10, and you can have Con 13, which still looks workable.

An Investigator//Paladin is giving up one of the nicer advantages Empiricists have (ditching Charisma at no penalty), and has big problems with their Swift Action Economy. Much bigger than Inquisitor. I wouldn't advise it.

Now, Daring Champion Cavalier with Order of the Dragon, there's a Gestalt option for an Investigator. Play Human, grab Fencing Grace at level 1, and put a single Feat into Extra Panache when you hit 5th, and you're good to go. +2 and 1/2 my level to damage and +3/4 my level on to-hit? Why yes, thank you, that sounds lovely. All good Saves and awesome skills as well? Why thank you!

It's a fun, thematic, build. You even get Tactician on an Int character.

A bit off-topic since it's a mediocre healer at best, but there you go.

[Renegadeshepherd]

In truth a paladin/inquisitor could be a three stat. Go with a dex based weapon like scimitar and you could go bow and scimitar. As a Human take fey foundling and weapon finesse and an INT of 7.

10,16,10,7,15,15(17) would more than sufficent for a gestalt. A little low on health so you could lower one stat to get a 12. Got everything you need but feats.

[Atarlost]

I just noticed that remove disease is available as a quiggong power without a target restriction at 6th level. That allows the Unmonk to fill the hole in the Shaman at a mere one level delay. I'm pretty sure that's not going to be better than cleric//unmonk, but if you really desperately want both Life Link and prepared spellcasting it's an option.

I'm pretty sure that apart from Life Link the life spirit is not as good as the healing domain. Life Link is a big potential draw, as is spirit magic, but I'm not sure it's quite worth the less martially suited spell list and lack of those extra domain slots. I am very much unimpressed with the hexes for the intended role other than Life Link. Almost everything is stand in the back caster stuff. Even the battle spirit only has one hex oriented towards the shaman actually fighting. The thematic fit is weaker as well.

The feat plan can be identical to the cleric//unmonk build provided you take the life spirit as primary for channel energy. You're just locked into remove disease as your level 6 ki power and need to reserve some ki to use it the way you'd leave some slots open for emergencies as a cleric or uncast as an oracle.

[My Self]

Shamans get spirit magic instead of domain slots. They're spontaneous casts of any of your spirit spells, and are perhaps a bit more flexible than domains. Shamans and Clerics have the same number of regular and bonus (domain/spirit magic) slots, Shamans just have a bit more flexibility in their bonus slots.

The Shaman's list is more druidic than the Cleric's, and has a slightly more offensive bent.

[Atarlost]

My Self wrote:

Shamans get spirit magic instead of domain slots. They're spontaneous casts of any of your spirit spells, and are perhaps a bit more flexible than domains. Shamans and Clerics have the same number of regular and bonus (domain/spirit magic) slots, Shamans just have a bit more flexibility in their bonus slots.

The Shaman's list is more druidic than the Cleric's, and has a slightly more offensive bent.

Ah, I was misreading that. I thought spirit magic was available for spontaneous casting like cleric cures, but there were no bonus slots. That's not a lot of added flexibility to offset the weaker spell list

Shamans, like druids, have a back row caster list. Unlike druids they don't substitute shapeshifting. There's a hex, but the duration is much shorter and the progression is a lot slower. If you want a divine blaster/controller/SoDer they're your class, but if you want a front liner or archer their spell list is lousy and their hexes mostly inapplicable.

[Kryzbyn]

fel_horfrost wrote:

What about a paladin/warpriest? Full bab, two pools of spells, double weapon enchantment pools armor enchantment tons of feats. Amazing saves.

Swift action buffing.
Personifies battle cleric to me.

One of the players in my Way of the Wicked game plays a Anti-paladin||Warpriest of Asmodeus.

The character does kick much ass.