As someone who is mostly ignorant of Pathfinder (and therefore Paizo), I cannot speak to how they do business. I've seen a few videos and read some posts, and from what I can tell, it seems like they're legitimately doing everything they can. Is the layout and download system on their site weird and annoying? Yes. Should they have expected these numbers from the deal they're offering through Humble Bundle? Probably. Am I satisfied that the Paizo techies are doing everything in their power to fix this. Mostly.
But what I'm seriously concerned about is the fact that, while I'm pretty patient, a lot of people aren't. And with a very large portion (likely the vast majority) of the traffic on the site being people new to Pathfinder, Paizo, and the idiosyncrasies of this specific website, a lot of people are just going to get confused, give up in exasperation, or both. It's easy to dismiss this as 'their loss,' but those people can still talk to other people, and with nothing but frustration coming across, this could seriously damage Paizo's reputation.
And there's more to confuse the newbies than just the fact that their downloads aren't working and being asked to click on the link they've just clicked... again (if they even notice the rather unassuming text asking them to do so). The downloads page will boot you out if you're idle for about five minutes, despite the message saying you should wait a few minutes. The books are grouped into all sorts of confusing categories, there are no obvious distinctions between standard Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society (I'm guessing that's an official group of players, but I don't know), and there are so many 'helpful' links that you're just drowning in information right off the bat.
It's after midnight, I finally got ONE file to download after two days of endless clicking, and my brain is fried, so I don't have any direct solutions to this at the moment, but I definitely think that something more than apologies (however sincere) and requests to be patient...
I agree that the site isn't very friendly to new users. I hated it when I first started. But as I used it more it has become one of the most natural websites for me to use.
On the sorting of books, it makes no sense if you don't know the product lines
Rule books fall under "Paizo Inc.: Pathfinder® (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game)" and should probably be the first thing you look at
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Knife actually. Preferably a kitchen knife.Favored Weapon: Compressed Air?Lawful Good Technology Sun FireI now worship at the shrine of Lissa. Kindly list your domains so I know what spells I have access to.
Unexpected and Elegant. I like it. Thanks for all the hard work :)
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Maybe this could be of help to people trying to download stuff: I managed to download a file (Bestiary, about 55 MB, middle-high in size of Paizo's PDFs) about 30 minutes ago: the whole thing took me about 20 minutes, but I'm chalking that up mostly to the fact that not many people are around at this time.
I'm writing this because during the process I got kicked out to the main page twice and my firefox crashed once, and I got my PDF about 8 minutes after I reopened the window after the crash: considering that that looks like too short a time for the queue, I suspect that you don't get booted out of the queue after you crash/get back to main page/whatever. For those still having problems getting their stuff, I'd say try to keep clicking once a minute, queing a single file, and keep trying on the same file even if you get sent back to main page.
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Any chance that the Paizo site has a venue for forum-based thumb wrestling as a way to settle disputes?
If so, then kudos. If not? Think about it. It could be fun.
I just got –01: Trial by Machine
Clicked it and kept checking. Took about half an hour or so
starting a timed run on strategy guide next
I think getting kicked back DOES lose your place in the queue, but I have three wholle files now making sure to click the link once every 5 minutes, so as not to get kicked.Maybe this could be of help to people trying to download stuff: I managed to download a file (Bestiary, about 55 MB, middle-high in size of Paizo's PDFs) about 30 minutes ago: the whole thing took me about 20 minutes, but I'm chalking that up mostly to the fact that not many people are around at this time.
I'm writing this because during the process I got kicked out to the main page twice and my firefox crashed once, and I got my PDF about 8 minutes after I reopened the window after the crash: considering that that looks like too short a time for the queue, I suspect that you don't get booted out of the queue after you crash/get back to main page/whatever. For those still having problems getting their stuff, I'd say try to keep clicking once a minute, queing a single file, and keep trying on the same file even if you get sent back to main page.
Yeah - I rarely download my files (so don't really feel qualified to give advice) but when it's slow, I generally keep clicking the download link every couple of minutes to keep my account "active". From comments today, that appears to help.
Any chance that the Paizo site has a venue for forum-based thumb wrestling as a way to settle disputes?
If so, then kudos. If not? Think about it. It could be fun.
I have sent you a PM, envelope at the top of the page next to your name
I think getting kicked back DOES lose your place in the queue, but I have three whole files now making sure to click the link once every 5 minutes, so as not to get kicked.Maybe this could be of help to people trying to download stuff: I managed to download a file (Bestiary, about 55 MB, middle-high in size of Paizo's PDFs) about 30 minutes ago: the whole thing took me about 20 minutes, but I'm chalking that up mostly to the fact that not many people are around at this time.
I'm writing this because during the process I got kicked out to the main page twice and my firefox crashed once, and I got my PDF about 8 minutes after I reopened the window after the crash: considering that that looks like too short a time for the queue, I suspect that you don't get booted out of the queue after you crash/get back to main page/whatever. For those still having problems getting their stuff, I'd say try to keep clicking once a minute, queing a single file, and keep trying on the same file even if you get sent back to main page.
You think so? Seems really weird that it took only so little for me, then.
Bummer, I thought that could have helped someone, but it seems I just got lucky. :/| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I agree that the site isn't very friendly to new users. I hated it when I first started.
That's precisely where my worries lie. This entire event is about new users, and a site that isn't new-user-friendly is a major detriment to that. I'm not 'demanding a fix' or anything. I've dipped my toes in the deep-end of the web-mastering pool, and I know how ridiculously tough it can be to make major changes on demand, especially with this kind of site traffic. I'm merely expressing my concerns, as Paizo seems to legitimately care about it's fan-base and I'd hate to see them get a bad rap from this one event going rather poorly to start.
On the sorting of books, it makes no sense if you don't know the product lines
Rule books fall under "Paizo Inc.: Pathfinder® (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game)" and should probably be the first thing you look at
On that front, as a fairly seasoned role-player, I can make a lot of reasonable assumptions regarding product lines, what books I should be looking at first, etc (although I thank you for the tip). But, again, this is about new users, and likely a lot of people who are entirely new to role-playing, and knowing how frustrated *I've* been, I can only imagine their perspective in all this.
I want to make it clear that I sympathize with the techs (and other support staff) busting their butts to get through this. It's a tough situation, and whether or not it could have been avoided is irrelevant - we're in it, they're dealing with it, end of story. I sincerely hope that the quality and user-friendliness of the site gets improved in response to all this, which I would call a definite silver lining. :)
I have sent you a PM, envelope at the top of the page next to your nameAny chance that the Paizo site has a venue for forum-based thumb wrestling as a way to settle disputes?
If so, then kudos. If not? Think about it. It could be fun.
My first piece of possible (hell, who am I kidding, more like highly probable) hate mail? I'm honored! =)
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I agree that the site isn't very friendly to new users. I hated it when I first started.That's precisely where my worries lie. This entire event is about new users, and a site that isn't new-user-friendly is a major detriment to that. I'm not 'demanding a fix' or anything. I've dipped my toes in the deep-end of the web-mastering pool, and I know how ridiculously tough it can be to make major changes on demand, especially with this kind of site traffic. I'm merely expressing my concerns, as Paizo seems to legitimately care about it's fan-base and I'd hate to see them get a bad rap from this one event going rather poorly to start.
On the sorting of books, it makes no sense if you don't know the product lines
Rule books fall under "Paizo Inc.: Pathfinder® (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game)" and should probably be the first thing you look at
On that front, as a fairly seasoned role-player, I can make a lot of reasonable assumptions regarding product lines, what books I should be looking at first, etc (although I thank you for the tip). But, again, this is about new users, and likely a lot of people who are entirely new to role-playing, and knowing how frustrated *I've* been, I can only imagine their perspective in all this.
I want to make it clear that I sympathize with the techs (and other support staff) busting their butts to get through this. It's a tough situation, and whether or not it could have been avoided is irrelevant - we're in it, they're dealing with it, end of story. I sincerely hope that the quality and user-friendliness of the site gets improved in response to all this, which I would call a definite silver lining. :)
I am assuming everyone I am talking to has no idea what they are doing, so that when people who do have no idea what they are doing read the posts they can follow and it will hopefully help them too :)
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All merchants are legally able to impose a minimum purchase, up to $10, for customers paying by credit card, under the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act. Dodd-Frank was signed into law in December 2010.
Why would it be hate mail? As one of the people you are referring to, I would also like to know where this part of the forums is (at least I found it funny, anyway).My first piece of possible (hell, who am I kidding, more like highly probable) hate mail? I'm honored! =)I have sent you a PM, envelope at the top of the page next to your nameAny chance that the Paizo site has a venue for forum-based thumb wrestling as a way to settle disputes?
If so, then kudos. If not? Think about it. It could be fun.
I imagined he assumes hate mail because "Internet"
I don't think we can do thumb wars but we can certainly do rock paper scissors :P
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The only thing I will say about this is that me trying to be the better person and actually purchase these PDFs has not done me any favors. If I had wanted to pirate them, I would not be, over an hour later, trying to download even one of the files.
This seems like the DRM surrounding the site is being bogged down rather than the actual site's download speed.
You know those "Saving Throw" Pathfinder intro videos? I think we should take their example fighting round: two identical level 1 soldiers with no armour, long swords and 10 all ability scores.Why would it be hate mail? As one of the people you are referring to, I would also like to know where this part of the forums is (at least I found it funny, anyway).My first piece of possible (hell, who am I kidding, more like highly probable) hate mail? I'm honored! =)I have sent you a PM, envelope at the top of the page next to your nameAny chance that the Paizo site has a venue for forum-based thumb wrestling as a way to settle disputes?
If so, then kudos. If not? Think about it. It could be fun.I imagined he assumes hate mail because "Internet"
I don't think we can do thumb wars but we can certainly do rock paper scissors :P
Possibly not a bad idea :P
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Alright well it is well past my time for a long rest. Even my cantrips are getting spotty.
Fare thee well gentle chat, and do try to stay civil. Remember that a bunch of new people are coming in and reading through this and we are possibly the first impression they have of our community.
Until next time, All Praise Lissa the Sys Admin.
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Not liking something and not understanding why something is used aren't even remotely the same thing. And since you clearly read what I wrote you can see that I clearly demonstrate that. If that's you not trying to antagonize, you're very bad at it.
And the minimum credit card thing can get your business's contract with the credit card company revoked. So it's not just a "those damn hippies don't understand business!" thing.
But, given that you make those conflations, I can make the assumption that you are OK with businesses doing whatever they have to do to take your money and run, so you defending them when that's the charge against them (NOT by me, but by the position I was trying to explain originally) isn't ideal.
I'm not saying those damn hippies don't understand business, I'm saying you don't. Besides, the credit card thing is so barely relevant anymore that it's practically a formality: if you're going to Applebee's then you're already intending to spend more than ten dollars anyway.
You never did answer the original question of why you hate DRM so much. In this case, yes it is annoying in the sense that it is preventing us from getting our PDF's as fast as we want, but the concept itself is just good business sense and Paizo's take on it is one of the most liberal that you'll find.
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The only thing I will say about this is that me trying to be the better person and actually purchase these PDFs has not done me any favors. If I had wanted to pirate them, I would not be, over an hour later, trying to download even one of the files.
It is generally the case that the wrong course of action is easier in some way than doing the right thing (since otherwise nobody would bother and it wouldn't even be in the mix). You being a better person is a great outcome and sticking to your principles has done you favors in that regard.
To be clear, I do think these delays are a REALLY BAD THING (tm) - both a bad look for Paizo and a frustrating experience for new visitors to paizo. I just think it's worth stating that doing the right/legal thing is, in fact, an intrinsic reward (in my opinion, anyhow).
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I wish more people felt that intrinsic reward. However, given the current political climate in America, I don't really believe this to be true. That feeling you and I get from doing the right thing is, I believe, an evolutionary trait that not all humans share.The only thing I will say about this is that me trying to be the better person and actually purchase these PDFs has not done me any favors. If I had wanted to pirate them, I would not be, over an hour later, trying to download even one of the files.It is generally the case that the wrong course of action is easier in some way than doing the right thing (since otherwise nobody would bother and it wouldn't even be in the mix). You being a better person is a great outcome and sticking to your principles has done you favors in that regard.
To be clear, I do think these delays are a REALLY BAD THING (tm) - both a bad look for Paizo and a frustrating experience for new visitors to paizo. I just think it's worth stating that doing the right/legal thing is, in fact, an intrinsic reward (in my opinion, anyhow).
I'm an Australian. We have a magic spell to deal with political angst of all descriptions:
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It is generally the case that the wrong course of action is easier in some way than doing the right thing (since otherwise nobody would bother and it wouldn't even be in the mix). You being a better person is a great outcome and sticking to your principles has done you favors in that regard.To be clear, I do think these delays are a REALLY BAD THING (tm) - both a bad look for Paizo and a frustrating experience for new visitors to paizo. I just think it's worth stating that doing the right/legal thing is, in fact, an intrinsic reward (in my opinion, anyhow).
If Paizo was being the larger person, as well as the rest of the community for buying the product, this company could have turned off their DRM to insure this problem did not occur merely for the week.
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Just a heads up to any new member of paizo.com. There's a policy here on not encouraging piracy and it is extremely tightly policed - to the point when a post which advocates non-piracy is often deleted "just to be sure" (or sometimes for quoting one which does).
I just mention it so that people don't get upset when there's an inevitable rash of deletions with a generally non-specific "don't discuss illegal things on our site". Don't take it personally! :)
Paizo - What you have here is a software problem: You seriously need to rethink the way download is implemented if people are to start being able to download things and the queue can be cleared.
What happens is the user session is timing out BEFORE your site is able to produce the watermarked PDF. Apparently this means that, whatever work had already been done in producing the PDF is lost, as when you re-login and re-click you seem to go back to the PDF-produce queue.
This means that your server is being hammered... but no productive work is being done and no one is leaving the queue.
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If Paizo was being the larger person, as well as the rest of the community for buying the product, this company could have turned off their DRM to insure this problem did not occur merely for the week.
It is generally the case that the wrong course of action is easier in some way than doing the right thing (since otherwise nobody would bother and it wouldn't even be in the mix). You being a better person is a great outcome and sticking to your principles has done you favors in that regard.To be clear, I do think these delays are a REALLY BAD THING (tm) - both a bad look for Paizo and a frustrating experience for new visitors to paizo. I just think it's worth stating that doing the right/legal thing is, in fact, an intrinsic reward (in my opinion, anyhow).
Note my last post (I suspect our conversation will soon be deleted...). However, I've often found that what seems 'simple' is in fact very difficult, because it wasn't built in from the start.
When Paizo began there were a handful of employees and they built their forum software, their online store and their messageboards very much "on the run". I suspect there's all kinds of legacy issues and complications with tinkering with something as hardwired as the watermarking process. Furthermore, I suspect they'd be loathe to allow a few unwatermarked copies out - in my experience, people have a tendency to justify all kinds of things to themselves a few years down the track. :/
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There is a flag button to the upper right of each post.
If you feel some poster has said something truly objectionable, it is nearly always better to just flag that (and play the "which category is this?" game) than it is to engage them.
It is extremely, extremely rare for someone to go "You know what? You're right!" when challenged. I'm told this is true for sites other than Paizo.com as well.. ;p