An alchemist with the Promethean Disciple discovery can craft any construct whose crafting requirements he can meet (or fudge by increasing the DC) by using Craft Construct.
Since the homunculus companion of the Promethean Alchemist has no crafting rules it cannot be crafted.
As a side note, the Promethean Disciple discovery has no special connection with homunculi so I'm not sure about the basis for this question.
You can questionably use the rules for Modifying Constructs on your Homunculus.
You don't use the Homunculus from the Bestiary, except you do check in that book to see what traits you get from being a construct.
You can questionably use the rules for Modifying Constructs on your Homunculus.
You don't use the Homunculus from the Bestiary, except you do check in that book to see what traits you get from being a construct.
They're talking about the Promethean Disciple discovery, not the Promethean Alchemist archetype. Only the archetype gets the special homunculus companion.
Then yeah, you just use the regular rules for making constructs. And if you want to make a Homunculus, you just use the rules for that construct.
Requirements Craft Construct, arcane eye, mirror image, mending; Skill Craft (leather) or Craft (sculptures) DC 12; Cost 1,050 gp.
and how might i go about acquiring the equivalent of the archetype Promethean Alchemist homunculus companion? or should i take this to another page?
I can answer that one; you gain the homunculus by taking the promethean alchemist archetype.
Take the archetype then take a level or two in investigator. Get mutagen discovery. :)
take the archetype, make the companion, then retrain the archetype to what ever you choose.
I'm very sure you don't get to cheat the system by giving up an archetype and yet keeping permanent benefits from it.
While the rules are generally vague on what actually happens to retained-away familiars / animal companions / eidolons/ etc., the GM does get a say in the matter.(And it's my understanding that in PFS, they just vanish into not existing anymore.)
|
take the archetype, make the companion, then retrain the archetype to what ever you choose.I'm very sure you don't get to cheat the system by giving up an archetype and yet keeping permanent benefits from it.
While the rules are generally vague on what actually happens to retained-away familiars / animal companions / eidolons/ etc., the GM does get a say in the matter.(And it's my understanding that in PFS, they just vanish into not existing anymore.)
does that mean, that if I take a crafting feat, make a magic item, then retrain the feat into some other feat - I lose the magic item I just created?
does that mean, that if I take a crafting feat, make a magic item, then retrain the feat into some other feat - I lose the magic item I just created?take the archetype, make the companion, then retrain the archetype to what ever you choose.I'm very sure you don't get to cheat the system by giving up an archetype and yet keeping permanent benefits from it.
While the rules are generally vague on what actually happens to retained-away familiars / animal companions / eidolons/ etc., the GM does get a say in the matter.(And it's my understanding that in PFS, they just vanish into not existing anymore.)
No, it doesn't.
"At 1st level, a promethean alchemist gains the service of a homunculus companion."
vs.
"You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures or objects."
If you retrain the former, you lose the services of the homunculus companion. If you retrain the latter, you lose the ability to create potions.
...crafting feats aren't archetypes?
A feat that creates something works because you used the feat, you created it, now it's created.
A companion or familiar doesn't work because you are removing the entire class feature they are dependant on.
|
|
it doesn't mean that the homunculus disappears. it still exists. and is still tied to you the same way that any other homunculus would be tied to you.
or the same way that if someone else created a homunculus but used your blood in its creation.
"The person whose blood is used to form a homunculus's body becomes its master; it is possible for one person to give blood for the creation, another to sculpt the base material, and another to magically animate it as a minion for the one who provided the blood"
when you retrain, you loose the ability for the homunculus to advance in level.
I'd definitely agree that, yes, it still exists, and yes, it's still tied to you.
But you don't have the class feature that says it's loyal to you. It's an NPC now, not a companion.
Similarly, if you retrained Summoner levels, you don't get to keep your Eidolon even though it probably still exists.
loyal...how would you describe a master/slave relationship?
as the homunculus description states: "The person whose blood is used to form a homunculus's body becomes its master"
You're not using the rest of the construction rules that the quote is taken from, so using just that part to justify keeping a class feature you've traded away doesn't make sense. If you get do that, then the GM gets to take the section further down about freed homunculi without the previous paragraph's context of the master's death, and call it a freed homunculus at risk of losing its mind.
Ultimately, even if you feel strongly that the rules support keeping it, it's not likely to convince GMs to let such a strong class feature. Even if it sticks around, it's likely to get killed to make things balanced between party members again, and you don't have a way to bring it back. (And in any case, it only matters when retraining to Alchemist, since the homunculus's features are tied to its master's Alchemist level.)
|
|
Lets take a different approach.
If I were to take a level of wizard, and bond with a sword.
Under the class description, I begin play with a masterwork sword:
Wizards who select a bonded object begin play with one at no cost. Objects that are the subject of an arcane bond must fall into one of the following categories: amulet, ring, staff, wand, or weapon. These objects are always masterwork quality.
No where in this description talks about the crafting of said masterwork item or the specifics on how to improve it.
Now, lets say I retrain the whole level of wizard to fighter.
1. Does the sword just disappear?
2. Would I lose the capabilities of modifying/ enhancing that sword?
Or to link back to an earlier point, lets keep the wizard level.
3. Because there's no crafting rules on how the masterwork bonded item is formed, does that mean the wizard wouldn't be able to modify/enhance the sword either?
1) The sword sticks around. You started play with it, and so it is in play. The cost benefit for getting it for free do not outweigh the cost of retraining.
2) You can still modify/enhance it as if it were a masterwork sword (because it is one), but you do not gain the ability to act as if you had Craft Magic Arms and Armor for free, as those only apply to Arcane Bonded items, which it is not.
3) See 1/2. For note, nothing says the wizard crafted the sword to begin with; he very easily could have bought it, received it as a family heirloom, stole it, etc.
|
|
1) The sword sticks around. You started play with it, and so it is in play. The cost benefit for getting it for free do not outweigh the cost of retraining.
2) You can still modify/enhance it as if it were a masterwork sword (because it is one), but you do not gain the ability to act as if you had Craft Magic Arms and Armor for free, as those only apply to Arcane Bonded items, which it is not.
3) See 1/2. For note, nothing says the wizard crafted the sword to begin with; he very easily could have bought it, received it as a family heirloom, stole it, etc.
so, how is that sword any different than starting play with a homunculus from an archetype, then retraining to a different archetype?
the homunculus is still there, the bond as the master is still there.
it's still a construct that can be improved both as standard construct and as the specific rules to enhance a homunculus.
the only thing that changes is the archetype's level advancement/progression of the homunculus.
That's all assuming that the homunculus companion follows all the exact same rules as regular constructed homunculi. (It has been proven already that it differs on at least some regards, hence being special.)
The key thing to know here is, to make am analogy with magic spells, the difference between instantaneous and permanent.
Some effects are instantaneous. They stick around even after the effect that generated them ceased to be relevant. Items you start with fall under this; you already started the game with them, and are not likely to start the game again. Crafted items also fall under this; once you've spent the gold and the time, you've made the item. They are, at this point, no longer attached to the character or ability that produced them.
Conversely, some effects are permanent. Their effects are ongoing and continuous, and often improve simply by leveling. Most class abilities fall under this. Their effects are linked to the ability that produced them, and to the character that owns that ability. If the ability is unavailable, so too are any effects it provides.
For an example, take the Wizard's Arcane Bond. First, it says you start the game with an item to serve as the basis of your arcane bond. This is an instantaneous effect; it kicks in exactly once, when you generate the character, then stops caring about that part thereafter. A character that loses Arcane Bond does not lose this item, and a character who gains Arcane Bond at a point after the start of the game does not gain such an item.
For the second step is the part of the item actually serving as an Arcane Bond. Typically it's whatever item you started with, but in the case it's lost, no longer useful, or the character did not start with one, he may designate another item instead. This part of the effect includes the ability to use it to cast spells, or to upgrade it as if you possessed the appropriate crafting feat.
You can argue all you like that the homunculus's existence itself falls under instantaneous, and indeed you've gotten little resistance on this. But the parts that assure you its loyalty, and allow it to scale, are all tied to the class ability and vanish if it does.
If you want a regular homunculus, just pay the 1050gp to craft one, or 2050gp to buy one if you do not wish to acquire the Craft Construct feat. But most GMs are not going to allow you to start the game with such a thing for absolutely free, and in the end, that's what you're asking for.
Stop it. Just stop. Dysfunction is probably correct, from a purely mechanical standpoint. From the "I'm a reasonable home GM" standpoint, you should say, "that's adorbs. No." You don't have to prove something doesn't work to disallow it. You just disallow it.