Howdy all, I've been out of the loop the last couple months, but I was just curious if Paizo announced the next AP yet. Didn't see anything on the forums, and I feel like we usually know what's coming next by this point.
You mean after Strange Aeons?
You mean after Strange Aeons?
That would answer my question. Thanks!
All we know for sure is that it will be very different from SA*, which probably means that it will be one of the more traditional APs. Also, IIRC, it will be developed by Crystal Frasier.
*-- Someone asked about having two rebellion themed APs back-to-back. HR/HV is a special case, being a "two sides of the same coin" type of deal. That's where we were told. It was in the official Hell's Vengeance #1 thread.
What's Strange Aeons about?
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What's Strange Aeons about?
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
and with strange aeons even death may die.-HP Lovecraft, the nameless city
It's the Lovecraftian AP
SA sounds like it could be pretty awesome!
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Staying away from Strange Eons, I feel like I got the Bait and Switch with Iron Gods being an homage to S3 and Gamma World - which it was not..at all.
As tempted as I am to sub it I don't think Paizo has the chops to pull off an Lovecraftian based AP without it having a into a "punch Cthulhu in the nose" vibe.
I will wait till the first installment is at the FLGS to look over and maybe some reviews are in.
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Except... when we were introduced to Cthulhu in Lovecraft's story on him, they punched Cthulhu in the head with a ship and knocked It out.
Lovecraft is about fighting monsters... and going insane in doing so. But they still fight monsters and in some cases win.
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A Lovecraftian AP is not a Call of Cthulhu remake using Pathfinder.
Which is a strong indication that this will be the same old, same old AP formula = fail at lovecraftian horror.
The fact that you bring up "Old Man Henderson" is a strong indicator that is AP will be written for people like you and their understanding of horror or lovecraftian horror as it relates to gaming.
Best of luck.
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A Lovecraftian AP is not a Call of Cthulhu remake using Pathfinder.
CoC is an excellent game system but it is not fantasy roleplaying. It is the horrors of the unknown driving people slowly mad, with the exception of Old Man Henderson.
Pathfinder has frequently touched upon and danced into the midst of horror. But you can fight back. And Lovecraft's stories likewise were about the protagonist fighting back.
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Except... when we were introduced to Cthulhu in Lovecraft's story on him, they punched Cthulhu in the head with a ship and knocked It out.
But that wasn't what the "Call of Cthulhu" was about, though maybe to a PFRPG player it may seem so. I wonder how optimized the ship was?
Or perhaps fans just have over-inflated senses of "Everything has to suck, because these mentally unstable protagonists couldn't handle a fact as simple as 'humans aren't the top of the universal food chain'!"
Cthulu-mythos stuff showed up in Conan, too, but he didn't go nuts from the revelations or anything. It's only the modern people who have the real problems with it.
That said, even if Paizo does go with the "Punch Cthulu in the nose", he'll just come back.
I mean, if "the stars just weren't right" (which, actually, they were right, humorously) translates to "I got knocked in the head with a boat, so I'mma go sleepy time" than Cthulu really should be statted out as less than he is.
I mean, Lovecraft wrote how worthless and completely irrelevant all of humanity was to the old ones, but that didn't stop 'em from knocking us up in multiple different ways - and not just Nyarlathotep, who enjoys twisting us. We're talking Yog-Sothoth; you know, "the Gate, the Key, and the Guardian" - that thing that is coterminous with all space time, yet locked out? Cthulu's Grandpappy? That guy? Knocked us up in a bid to help him escape. Yep. He suuuuuurrrrrrre is "all knowing" and "all seeing" alright. I mean, he's okay, don't get me wrong, but he doesn't live up to his own hype.
I mean, if you want Call of Cthulu was really about, it was about racism and the fact that sea food and scientific learning are terrifying.
Don't get me wrong: it's some great fiction, and I enjoy it, but,
Steam had not been suffered to go down entirely, despite the departure of all hands for the shore; and it was the work of only a few moments of feverish rushing up and down between wheel and engines to get the Alert under way. Slowly, amidst the distorted horrors of that indescribable scene, she began to churn the lethal waters; whilst on the masonry of that charnel shore that was not of earth the titan Thing from the stars slavered and gibbered like Polypheme cursing the fleeing ship of Odysseus. Then, bolder than the storied Cyclops, great Cthulhu slid greasily into the water and began to pursue with vast wave-raising strokes of cosmic potency. Briden looked back and went mad, laughing shrilly as he kept on laughing at intervals till death found him one night in the cabin whilst Johansen was wandering deliriously.
But Johansen had not given out yet. Knowing that the Thing could surely overtake the Alert until steam was fully up, he resolved on a desperate chance; and, setting the engine for full speed, ran lightning-like on deck and reversed the wheel. There was a mighty eddying and foaming in the noisome brine, and as the steam mounted higher and higher the brave Norwegian drove his vessel head on against the pursuing jelly which rose above the unclean froth like the stern of a daemon galleon. The awful squid-head with writhing feelers came nearly up to the bowsprit of the sturdy yacht, but Johansen drove on relentlessly. There was a bursting as of an exploding bladder, a slushy nastiness as of a cloven sunfish, a stench as of a thousand opened graves, and a sound that the chronicler would not put on paper. For an instant the ship was befouled by an acrid and blinding green cloud, and then there was only a venomous seething astern; where—God in heaven!—the scattered plasticity of that nameless sky-spawn was nebulously recombining in its hateful original form, whilst its distance widened every second as the Alert gained impetus from its mounting steam.
That was all. After that Johansen only brooded over the idol in the cabin and attended to a few matters of food for himself and the laughing maniac by his side. He did not try to navigate after the first bold flight, for the reaction had taken something out of his soul. Then came the storm of April 2nd, and a gathering of the clouds about his consciousness. There is a sense of spectral whirling through liquid gulfs of infinity, of dizzying rides through reeling universes on a comet’s tail, and of hysterical plunges from the pit to the moon and from the moon back again to the pit, all livened by a cachinnating chorus of the distorted, hilarious elder gods and the green, bat-winged mocking imps of Tartarus.
Out of that dream came rescue—the Vigilant, the vice-admiralty court, the streets of Dunedin, and the long voyage back home to the old house by the Egeberg. He could not tell—they would think him mad. He would write of what he knew before death came, but his wife must not guess. Death would be a boon if only it could blot out the memories.
That was the document I read, and now I have placed it in the tin box beside the bas-relief and the papers of Professor Angell. With it shall go this record of mine—this test of my own sanity, wherein is pieced together that which I hope may never be pieced together again. I have looked upon all that the universe has to hold of horror, and even the skies of spring and the flowers of summer must ever afterward be poison to me. But I do not think my life will be long. As my uncle went, as poor Johansen went, so I shall go. I know too much, and the cult still lives.
Cthulhu still lives, too, I suppose, again in that chasm of stone which has shielded him since the sun was young. His accursed city is sunken once more, for the Vigilant sailed over the spot after the April storm; but his ministers on earth still bellow and prance and slay around idol-capped monoliths in lonely places. He must have been trapped by the sinking whilst within his black abyss, or else the world would by now be screaming with fright and frenzy. Who knows the end? What has risen may sink, and what has sunk may rise. Loathsomeness waits and dreams in the deep, and decay spreads over the tottering cities of men. A time will come—but I must not and cannot think! Let me pray that, if I do not survive this manuscript, my executors may put caution before audacity and see that it meets no other eye.
... doesn't exactly inspire cosmic horror in me.
I mean, statistics are a little hard to come by, but the steam boat wasn't at full speed, and the guy was basically a low-level commoner (or mmmmmaaaaaaayyyyyyyybe and expert, because, after all, he held out for, like, a minute or two more).
We aren't given a real reason why Cthulu went back to sleep, so the only information we've got is: even though the stars were right for the ancient prophecy, and, clearly, his head can come back together, a steam boat pops him like a squicky balloon and makes him go back to sleep.
I dunno - not really the super-threat he was made out to be. If it's just because he doesn't care... also 'meh' - as laziness is just to our advantage.
That said, I also suspect that the PF people can do Cosmic Horror, if only because they're pretty good at that sort of thing in general.
These forums must be stuck on repeat.
What?
These forums must be stuck on repeat.
What?
These forums must be stuck on repeat.
What?
These forums must be stuck on repeat.
What?
These forums must be stuck on repeat.
What?
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That said, I also suspect that the PF people can do Cosmic Horror, if only because they're pretty good at that sort of thing in general.
No, they are not. I can't think of a standout horror adventure from Paizo that was actually good.
I mean, if you want Call of Cthulu was really about, it was about racism and the fact that sea food and scientific learning are terrifying.
Ah, now we have officially entered into Clown Overtime.
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Like said above, Conan handled Lovecraftian stuff differently but well, More of a pulp feel to it than horror.
BUt let's be honest, horror is a difficult type of game to run, even if running CoC. Running a game is less about the game itself and more about the atmosphere. The players have to buy in because no one is really going to be scared of imaginary monsters attacking their imaginary characters.
For me, horror RPGs are like WWE. I know the whole thing is a work and wrestling is fake. But, when a wrestler has a great gimmick and can get me invested, I still dig it. Guess that makes me a horror smark :D
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I was under the impression Hastur will be more involved then Cathulu.
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That said, I also suspect that the PF people can do Cosmic Horror, if only because they're pretty good at that sort of thing in general.No, they are not. I can't think of a standout horror adventure from Paizo that was actually good.Hangman's Noose, by Nick Logue.
Hook Mountain Massacre can also be run very well as horror, though it's more on the gross-out/black humor side.
Doug M.
Neither one of those modules were PF (pathfinder) they were for 3.5 and that was a long time ago.
The closest thing that would qualify in recent years would be Carrion Hill and the Carrion Crown AP - which had some great writers but who I feel were constrained by the Paizo module format re: limited (difficulty, offensive content, CR based encounters, overall limiting AP format, etc).
If they produced a list of writers for SA that included Vaughan, Pett and Logue and avoid some of the other house regulars I may consider - with a caveat included that A) This will be more difficult, B) This will be disturbing C) This may not be winnable, at least without some sacrifice, D) The writers will not be constrained by the usual AP nonsense.
Otherwise it will follow the same tired and old PF AP formula (ok opening mods, filler middle and not very good final mod).
Do I think that Paizo wants to write a good horror mod, or cosmic horror - I'm sure they do - can they with the gloves on following the PF/AP standard. No, they cannot.
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Have you not seen The House on Hook Street or Valley of the Brain Collectors.
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Valley was in the Carrion Crown AP - it was mentioned (and I supported that AP). That AP line should have knocked it out of the park and could have established the fact that Paizo can produce horror. It fell way below that mark IMO.
The House on Hook Street - no. Tempted to buy it (like a sucker who never learns) - Hodge after all does know his Occult. So I might get it, risky at it price (plus sealed).
I stopped buying Paizo product and cancelled all my subs a few years ago. I re-subbed and completely supported the IG module (and affiliated products/maps) and after that debacle said never again.
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Valley of the Brain Collectors is in Iron Gods, which is one of my favorite (note: I never saw nor played in Expedition to the Barrier Peaks)
You're obviously bitter for some reason, but I've never had issue with pathfinder's quality (in fact I think we're on opposite ends of the spectrum on that point) but to each their own. :-)
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Weird, I thought Iron Gods was a perfect homage to Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. I couldn't say about Gamma World, because I never played that, but I don't think Iron gods was ever advertised as such.
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I have to admit, I have a friend who still rails about the fact the Helo didn't get the closure he deserved in the series finale of Battlestar Galactica. I'm getting that vibe here.
There's a good chance that Strange Aeons will disappoint anyone who comes at it with both an expectation for its failure and a list of demands that include it, effectively, not being an Adventure Path. At least you're honest with yourself that you probably won't be happy. If I want Red Lobster and go through the drive-thru at McDonald's, then I need to at least admit up front that this is not going to satisfy my appetite tonight.
Personally, I'm excited for SA. I dropped my subscription after Carrion Crown (which I enjoyed), because what came next hasn't interested me. But I'm anticipating subscribing again for SA. What Auxmaulous lists as limitations, I list as perks.
Also, loved House on Hook Street, Feast of Ravenmoor, Carrion Hill, and From Shore to Sea. (Not mentioning Hungry Are the Dead, Carnival of Tears, or Hangman's Noose because apparently their age and pre-Pathfinder rule set disqualify them from being awesome adventures that freaked out my players?)
To each our own. And, in this case, I *think* I'm getting what I want for the first time since the end of Carrion Crown. Glee!!!
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We aren't given a real reason why Cthulu went back to sleep, so the only information we've got is: even though the stars were right for the ancient prophecy, and, clearly, his head can come back together, a steam boat pops him like a squicky balloon and makes him go back to sleep.
Well, if you want to get technical, we're never actually told that the creature that rises from R'lyeh at the end of Call of Cthulhu only to be put down with a steam boat actually is Cthulhu. It's never explicitly identified as such by the text. In theory it could have been another, lesser creature that the humans witnessing the event mistakenly identified as Cthulhu. That is the kind of thing Lovecraft would do.
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Hah~! That's hilarious!
Sensible, entirely unsupported by anything in the text, and exactly in line with the "Nope, Cthulu is impossibly OP!" idea.
I love it!
EDIT:
I mean, if you want Call of Cthulu was really about, it was about racism and the fact that sea food and scientific learning are terrifying.
Ah, now we have officially entered into Clown Overtime.
You... you've actually read lots of Lovecraft, right?
I'm just making sure.
I mean, he's a great writer (sometimes), but his inspirations and themes can be really goofy if you strip the (sometimes relatively thin) veneer away.
Guy had (sometimes quite silly) phobias. Turned them into intriguing literature that helped usher in all sorts of neat stuff. Just because the origins of something are goofy (or even sometimes bad) doesn't undermine the powerful change (and often times good stuff) made by them.
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Was something I pulled from the tvtropes headscratcher page for the Mythos. I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea, but it's a nice card to be able to play.
What I do subscribe to, though, is the notion that Lovecraft was intentionally inconsistent in his writing to give the feeling of crafting a mythology, and that the tone and feel of a Lovecraft story are lost when you know the exact scope of the power of these creatures. More over, he was writing in a time period where the scope of power wasn't such a big deal and hadn't been treated to the escalation of decades worth of kaiju movies, anime, and comic books.
Point being, there were different standards back then. Cthulhu's fictional character and one in the public domain; he's as powerful or as vulnerable as any given writer wants to make him because he doesn't exist; he's ink on a page, and he's there to serve whatever purpose they need him to. No one writing for Cthulhu today is anymore obligated to use "taken out by a steam boat" as a guideline for power than DC is obligated to use Action Comics #1 as a guideline for Superman.
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Was something I pulled from the tvtropes headscratcher page for the Mythos. I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea, but it's a nice card to be able to play.
It's great! Very clever!
What I do subscribe to, though, is the notion that Lovecraft was intentionally inconsistent in his writing to give the feeling of crafting a mythology, and that the tone and feel of a Lovecraft story are lost when you know the exact scope of the power of these creatures. More over, he was writing in a time period where the scope of power wasn't such a big deal and hadn't been treated to the escalation of decades worth of kaiju movies, anime, and comic books.
Point being, there were different standards back then. Cthulhu's fictional character and one in the public domain; he's as powerful or as vulnerable as any given writer wants to make him because he doesn't exist; he's ink on a page, and he's there to serve whatever purpose they need him to. No one writing for Cthulhu today is anymore obligated to use "taken out by a steam boat" as a guideline for power than DC is obligated to use Action Comics #1 as a guideline for Superman.
This is true, for sure!
Thing is, though, when people talk about Supes, they're usually talking about the whole of the "official" written work - including contradictory takes - whereas Cthulu's official stuff just stops (unless you accept Derleth's take... which many do not).
And when you go by what is written as inspiration, you have either "go with canon" in which case you must point to concrete examples of relative ability; or "go with the themes" in which case, you know, you just... go with the themes (but stepping out of the actual canon from which you drew inspiration in the first place, meaning literally anything is valid).
"Going with canon" means that Cthulu is, fundamentally, not all that powerful. He's terrifying and potent, yes, but not all that powerful and that potent.
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"Going with themes" means that Cthulu himself is ultimately immaterial - it doesn't matter if, in PF, Cthulu is a steamboat-eating chump or an ever-regenerating super-powerful "unstoppable" demigod*. Cthulu isn't really all that terribly important even in the grand scheme of the mythos named after him. The only thing needed when you're going with themes is the feeling or sense of cosmic indifference and the weakness of mortal sentience compared to it, which PF can do quite well, if it wants to, with or without Cthulu's stats being stratospheric or even being present (though you can do that too). Introducing Cthulu in a method that scales him up above and beyond what he's printed as in an attempt to use him as the same "kind" of threat to demonstrably-more-powerful people, you're entering the fan-fiction territory: "No, Sephiroth is simply too powerful/awesome! He can't be killed by anyone!" That is, it's buying into the hype rather than into the text.
To be clear, there's nothing wrong with that. Official texts do that too (as your Superman example shows), but I like being clear with what it is, because, when you do that, you gain the ability to decouple your creations from the original idea.
That zygomind I linked before is terrifying and is perfect for Mythos-like themes without being a Mythos creature. Similarly, other such works - in many ways, these works function better than their original source materials because they are not shackled to the written part: they take the inspiration and concept and then build to something similar in theme but with a different mythos.
But that's, like, just my opinion, man. :)
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Something that would work for Strange Aeons and make it far different than other horror APs is if they kept it low level.
Most characters fear death, or player's don't to go through character after character.
If they had an AP that the first book kept people at level 1, the second at 2, the third at 3, the fourth at 4, etc...it could make for a very INTERESTING AP to a degree.
OR, they could have Monsters the characters have no chance of beating (an adult dragon for 1st level characters type thing) typically in the AP, things that the players want to avoid rather than go head in and charge.
It would be a very different AP.
However, if they kept the entire AP low level, perhaps it would also help with the sales of that AP (many probably wouldn't like the idea of slow advancement, but I hear lower level adventures sell more, if most of the AP is lower level...then perhaps even the later installments would sell better?).
I'd say low level would be the best way to really have a horror type AP.
After one gets to something like 10th level, I think it gets a LOT harder as people have a LOT less fear of death and dying.