Fun one happened to us last night, so I have a question for the marvelous VickyMikyHawky team:
In scenario Home Sweet Home in S&S, there is a location (I guess Dinosaur Corral) that says something like (I do it from memory) : "If you play an ally with the animal trait, add 2 to your check".
I'm playing Lini with pretty much only parrots in my deck (I have something like 5 of them, pure fun). In the Corral, I fail a check by 2. Then play a parrot to reroll. Question is: do I get a +2 on the reroll?
Usually rerolls are always with the same dice and bonuses, but this case is tricky for me, because the card making you reroll actually seems to modify that.
So?
I'd say no. The parrot allows you to re-roll. That's not the same thing as re-attempting the check (and all of its steps) so the +2 would never be added.
That's not the same thing as re-attempting the check (and all of its steps) so the +2 would never be added.
Why would you need to re-attemp the check, if the +2 bonus is triggered by the Parrot - which itself is predicated by failing the check?
... as I said, tricky one... good candidate for the can'o'worms of the week.
Waiting for an input from Vic or Mike.
BTW, this is the exact wording of the location
I love this one... even after reading your different ideas (thanks BTW), I tend to follow cosined but I'm certainly not 100% convinced.
Nowhere in the rulebook does it say that the modifiers are locked in after the "Play Cards and Use Powers that Affect your check" step. Indeed, the "Attempt the Roll" step says the following
Attempt the Roll. Roll the dice and add up their value, adding or subtracting any modifiers that may apply to the check. Powers may allow or require you to reroll 1 or more dice; each such power can let you reroll dice only once in a single check or step.
So we play Parrot during that time, the Corral triggers and adds an additional +2 modifier to the check, which is then applied because we're told to apply it.
but I'm certainly not 100% convinced.
You and me both.
Yes Skizzerz, if I wanted to add a point in your direction I would say:
If a card and this rulebook are ever in conflict, the card should be considered correct
which could be interpreted as the location power overrules the normal process of the check, thus enabling the +2.
Definitively there is room for debate. Gosh I love this one.
I'm also leaning in the direction of "no" based on cosined and Andrew's reasoning.
It also doesn't feel like you are playing the parrot "on" the check, but instead using a power after the check to modify the result.
Interested in the official ruling on this one.
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Even if the location card was to Add 1d4 to the check, I'm still not sure it wouldn't apply. I read the same thing that skizzerz quoted. Nothing that I saw says you can't add something to a re-roll check (whether a fixed modifier or another die).
And I don't see this as a conflict, Frencois. This is simply a clarification about whether a re-roll has to be the same dice and the same modifiers whether a power influences it or not. (There are many cards out there that influence re-roll checks.) And whether applying the power from the location for the parrot actually is considered playing a card (parrot) on the check when it allow the re-roll.
Absolutely no conflict here (sorry sometimes I'm not using good English), just a fun tricky question where, like fuji said, I'm
"Interested in the official ruling on this one."
A power that happens when something else happens happens at the same time that something else happens. Therefore, if a Parrot was played (legitimately) during the Attempt the Roll step, a power that happens "when an ally with the Animal trait is played" would also happen during the Attempt the Role step (for example, Lini placing the Parrot on top of her deck). I don't think anyone here is trying to contest that or indicate otherwise.
The question instead is if all modifiers are fixed before one assembles their dice, and any adjustments afterwards do not apply, to which I'd say there is no rules support that is (or isn't) the case, but a lot of card support that indicates that modifiers are not fixed come roll-time. There are a lot of cards that allow for re-rolls, and some of them even explicitly add things to the re-roll as well (I seem to recall a power allowing for a reroll plus an additional d4 or d6, even though that is well after the "assemble your dice" step)
I think it would be very hard to find a consistent interpretation of the rules that allows the +2 to be added. If the +2 is allowed, I'd ask why it isn't retroactively applied to the original result as well? If there was an animal which said "If you would fail a check to defeat a bane, you may reveal this to recharge a card", why couldn't that card then let you pass a check you'd failed by 1? If Ring of the Iron Skull was an animal would it add +2 as well (ok normally that wouldn't matter anyway but maybe you're fighting Admiral Thrune somehow or something)?
I actually think the issue is not the timing or things being locked in but that the parrot isn't played "on" the check in the first place. It's one level of abstraction removed from the check, not "on" it. I'm not saying they couldn't print a card that said "Discard this to reroll a check, adding two to the final result", but if they did I'd say that card wasn't "on" the check either. I think you need separate levels of abstraction for any of those sorts of cards to work consistently.
But obviously this won't be considered answered without an official word I'm just placing my own bet.
Edit: Actually this just made me wonder something else. Could you play Ring of the Iron Skull after defeating a monster that was immune to items (if such a thing existed)? I'd be inclined to say yes, but then I'd also be inclined to say no to using Rotgut (a parrot with the pirate trait) against a monster that was immune to the pirate trait. So maybe they're not the same thing.
All very good examples needing clarifications Irgy.
While we wait, I'd like to make it even funnier for Mike who loves puzzles:
Someone might argue that at the time I failed the first check by 2 and decided to play the parrot, I got my +2.
1) So then I actually succeded my first check.
Which means I had no right to play the parrot.
Which means I didn't get the +2.
Which means I failed my first check.
Which means I was right to play the parrot.
Goto 1)
Yes I know, this one is evidently wrong, but wanted to make you smile.
I so much love this Parrot / Rotgut / Ring of the Iron Skull case.
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Someone might argue that at the time I failed the first check by 2 and decided to play the parrot, I got my +2.
1) So then I actually succeded my first check.
We're not time travelling, Frencois. There are a few cards that affect the check (roll) after the roll has been made. Sadly, this location does not. So while you get to add the +2 to the re-roll (which I read from Vic's post), you don't retroactively get the +2 on the original roll. Sorry.
That said, my debate with my D&D group last night was split on this. Some said that you don't actually play the Parrot on the initial check, you're playing it after-the-fact. The others said that it applied since you rolled and are playing the Parrot to affect the roll again and that it's all on the same check. (Which is what I read from Vic. The "check" isn't over until you are done with the re-roll. So any cards played until the results are determined are "played".)
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... this is one of those threads titles that make me think i need to get coffee IN bed....
There's a similar question for Tontelizi (Fighter class deck). He has a power to recharge a polearm weapon instead of discarding it, and a power feat to add 1 die to the check when he does so. Most polearms have a discard power that allows you to reroll the dice. So does he get +1 die when he recharges a polearm to reroll?
... this is one of those threads titles that make me think I need to get coffee IN bed....
Glad you liked it :-)
There's a similar question for Tontelizi...
Yes actually my inquiry is much larger that my parrot army (but that was the real case that I encountered).
The generic question we are actually asking is something like :
If a card/power is legaly played between a roll and a reroll, can it modify the re-check (type/number of die, bonuses, number needed to succeed, outcome in case of sucess / failure, and so on).
There's a similar question for Tontelizi (Fighter class deck). He has a power to recharge a polearm weapon instead of discarding it, and a power feat to add 1 die to the check when he does so. Most polearms have a discard power that allows you to reroll the dice. So does he get +1 die when he recharges a polearm to reroll?
Yes, he does; and if you need a precedent - Imrijka's Mysterious Disc item from the Iconic Heroes promos, which *only* power is something along the lines of:
"If you fail a check, bury this card to reroll the dice. If you have the Inquisitor trait, add another die to the roll."
I don't even know where some people get the idea that you can't add new dice and modifiers to a check once the roll's been made, considering there's plenty of cards that do exactly that.
The Parrot reads, "If you would fail a check..." The key word here is "would." The Parrot steps in during that check and says "No no my friend, you did not fail this check...yet. You may reroll." You have now played an animal on that check and the location power kicks in. I mention this as an important distinction that contradicts what others have said about the parrot initiating a new check.
This came up in my group when I played another animal to add 1d4 to my combat check. I failed and was curious if I could then play my parrot. We decided I could not because you can only play one ally per check.
This came up in my group when I played another animal to add 1d4 to my combat check. I failed and was curious if I could then play my parrot. We decided I could not because you can only play one ally per check.That's a good question as well. Initially, I'd think you played it correctly.
I also think you got that right. As Vic said above, the check is everything from Determine Which Skill You're Using to Take Damage, If Necessary. Over all those various parts, you can only play 1 ally total.
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I also think you got that right. As Vic said above, the check is everything from Determine Which Skill You're Using to Take Damage, If Necessary. Over all those various parts, you can only play 1 ally total.This came up in my group when I played another animal to add 1d4 to my combat check. I failed and was curious if I could then play my parrot. We decided I could not because you can only play one ally per check.That's a good question as well. Initially, I'd think you played it correctly.
The only case I thought of for this was if you were Lini and you revealed an ally to add 1d4 to your check because of your character power. That would not count as playing an ally, as I understand it.
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The only case I thought of for this was if you were Lini and you revealed an ally to add 1d4 to your check because of your character power. That would not count as playing an ally, as I understand it.
Correct. You're using the character's power (and just using the Ally to "fuel" it.) You can additionally use that same Ally (i.e. the Parrot we're talking about) if applicable.
What if I fail the check by 1 and then play a Vulture to mitigate the damage? Does that give a retroactive +2 and mean that I succeeded? Of course, then I couldn't have played the Vulutre to mitigate damage since there wouldn't have been any...
Sort of a paradox. "What came first? The vulture or the damage?"
... this one is getting better every minute.
While we wait, I want to deeply thank you all because pretty much everything (except my own version of the paradox just after Vic's post) that was said makes some sense. And yet nothing is conclusive. This is where I really enjoy the power of these forums to make this game better everyday. Thanks to you all, I may very exceptionaly award to my own poor parrot lost in a dino corral the weekly can'o'worms contest.
What if I fail the check by 1 and then play a Vulture to mitigate the damage? Does that give a retroactive +2 and mean that I succeeded? Of course, then I couldn't have played the Vulutre to mitigate damage since there wouldn't have been any...
You take damage as a consequence of failing the check. While it may be argued that the Vulture adds (an irrelevant) +2 to the check, the checks has already resolved.Barring any effect that allows you to 'time travell', as Therion puts it, this bonus points don't retroactively change the result of the check.
What would be interesting in this scenario is if you failed against one of the Nagas, for instance - "if you fail your check by 3 or more..." - and the bonus from playing Vulture to mitigate the damage would actually put you above the 3 points threshold.
I'd still say no, as even though you're definitely playing Animal ON the check -per Vic's post- , you're doing so in the Taking Damage step, which is way past resolving the check itself and adding bonus or penalty modifiers to it.
Yeah, I would too. I think the Parrot should probably give you the bonus, because you repeat the roll which includes adding modifiers. But the Vulture doesn't do that. And nothing in the rules allows you to add a modifier after the "attempt the roll" step, unless it specifically says to add a modifier.
At least, that is how I'll treat this until Vic can give a final resolution.
I'll just mention that there are cards that explicitely let you retroactively change the results of a check (Luckstone & Greater Luckstone for example). I'm not 100% sure when those get played, whether it is in the "Attempt the roll" check or between that and the "Take damage" step.
Also, taking damage is not way past "resolving the check". It is immediately after attempting the roll, in the "Attempt the check" step of the encounter.
I could see an argument that you failed the check but take no damage, though that still leaves Schroedinger's Vulture out there simultaneously playable and unplayable.
All of this leaves me wanting to limit the ability to modify a check to the four steps of the check before you roll unless explicitly called out otherwise by the card (like the Luckstones or cards that explicitly give a re-roll with a bonus). I'd argue no +2 from the Parrot (or Vulture) at my table if asked, but it isn't that big of a deal so I'd probably let it slide if someone really wanted it.
You take damage as a consequence of failing the check. While it may be argued that the Vulture adds (an irrelevant) +2 to the check, the checks has already resolved.Barring any effect that allows you to 'time travell', as Therion puts it, this bonus points don't retroactively change the result of the check.That's the key. The check has already been resolved. And according to what Vic posted, you're in the next step. So the Vulture never is actually played on the check. It is played on the result of the check in the "Take Damage, If Necessary" step of the encounter.
According to what Vic said, the Vulture is definitely played on the check. And even if you can't retroactively succeed at the check, a +2 on the check would reduce the damage taken by 2. (possibly to 0)
You take damage as a consequence of failing the check. While it may be argued that the Vulture adds (an irrelevant) +2 to the check, the checks has already resolved.Barring any effect that allows you to 'time travell', as Therion puts it, this bonus points don't retroactively change the result of the check.That's the key. The check has already been resolved. And according to what Vic posted, you're in the next step. So the Vulture never is actually played on the check. It is played on the result of the check in the "Take Damage, If Necessary" step of the encounter.
The check isn't "resolved" in the Take Damage (If Necessary) step; that step is still part of the check you are resolving. This means that you cannot play the Vulture if you have already played another ally on the check. However, the vulture does not let you retroactively win the check, because Take Damage (If Necessary) happens after Attempt the Roll, and it is during the Attempt the Roll step we are told to apply modifiers to the roll. After that point, all modifiers have been applied so any new ones are effectively worthless. It does not make you spontaneously succeed at the check nor does it reduce your damage by an additional 2.
Parrot, on the other hand, applies a modifier (from Dinosaur Corral) before your (re)roll, and therefore that new modifier would be rolled into all the other ones as you repeat the roll.
You take damage as part of the Take Damage, If Necessary step: "If you fail a check to defeat a monster, it deals an amount of damage to you equal to the difference between the difficulty to defeat the monster and your check result). ... Remember that players may not play more than 1 of each card type during a check, so if you previously played a spell to affect the check, you may not play a spell to reduce damage."
That said, we're in agreement on the end result (playing Vulture in no way impacts the check result), I was just being nitpicky on wording/sequencing :)
There isn't a Taking Damage step outside of the check. There is only "Take Damage, if necesary" which is explicitely part of "Attempt the check" and "Apply any effects that happen after you act" which is not part of the check.
According to Vic, cards played on "Take Damage" are played on the check. According to the location if you play an animal on the check you get +2. That resolves to a +2 being granted during the "Take Damage" step, which would logically reduce the damage taken by two.
There isn't a Taking Damage step outside of the check. There is only "Take Damage, if necesary" which is explicitely part of "Attempt the check" and "Apply any effects that happen after you act" which is not part of the check.
According to Vic, cards played on "Take Damage" are played on the check. According to the location if you play an animal on the check you get +2. That resolves to a +2 being granted during the "Take Damage" step, which would logically reduce the damage taken by two.
No, it does not result in a +2 on the check. Modifiers are only applied on the check in the Attempt the Roll step ("Roll the dice and add up their value, adding or subtracting any modifiers that apply to the check."). Take Damage, If Necessary happens after Attempt the Roll. Any new modifiers invented after the roll has been made do absolutely nothing -- your check result is already locked in at that point.
Hmm. It's too late to play a card that adds to your check (that would have needed to be done earlier in the encounter), but playing this card for a different reason interacts with a location card that tells you to add 2 to your check. Nothing in the rules says that you cannot modify a check outside of the "Attempt the Roll" step. And even if it did, unless it said "Never", it would be overruled by the location telling you to add 2 to the check.
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This thread title also made me think of "You've got chocolate in my peanut butter" for some reason.
Related question:
If I play an ally that has the animal trait to explore, and that ally gives me a bonus on the check (Like Iconic Leryn), does that also get me the +2? I didn't actually play the ally on the check because I can still play another ally, so I don't think I get the +2, but just wanted to see if others feel differently.
I'm not disputing that playing Vulture doesn't add an additional +2 modifier; I'm disputing the part where you believe this modifier gets automatically applied even though we are never told to apply it. The only place we're told to apply modifiers is in the Attempt the Roll step, not before, not after.
Even discounting that, the amount of damage you take when you play the Vulture is already fixed. Even assuming that playing it does indeed impact the end result of the check, the amount of damage you are taking does not change because you've already computed it at that point in time. You play Vulture as a reaction to taking damage, which means the amount of damage you are being dealt is already dealt to you. Modifying the check result has no bearing on the damage at that point in time.
Edit: For your related question, the answer is No. Dinosaur Corral only triggers when you play an ally with the animal trait on a check.
Well, we agree on something at least :)
Related question:
If I play an ally that has the animal trait to explore, and that ally gives me a bonus on the check (Like Iconic Leryn), does that also get me the +2? I didn't actually play the ally on the check because I can still play another ally, so I don't think I get the +2, but just wanted to see if others feel differently.
On the plus side, you're still free to throw in another Snow Leopard or something on the check :)