Overwhelming Soul seems really bad

[swoosh]

Like even if one of my players is playing a race with a Cha bonus I'd be hard pressed to not recommend that they just play a normal kineticist and trait in the social skills.

Like even if Mental Prowess' activated effect was at will instead of 1/day it'd still be a mediocre archetype.

Is there anything I'm missing here?

[Ajit Shyama, Shadow Caller]

From what I've heard, it's pretty much just there so undead, sentient constructs and others who lack a constitution score can become kineticists.

So, it's not really a PC option.

[Kahel Stormbender]

It's not really a bad archtype. In PFS I'm playing a kitsune overwhelming soul. It's more limiting on utility talents you can take, true. But the static to-hit and damage boost is decent. As is the fact you aren't constantly taking non-lethal damage that can't be healed. 24 hours of neg level instead of burn could be painful, but the neg levels can't kill you.

And sure you're having to use gather power if you want to use most infusions at low levels. But can you honestly say you weren't using gather power to pay burn costs on normal kineticists?

[Chess Pwn]

Well it's an option, just not an upgrade in combat. But obviously having CHA be your high stat makes you better at CHA skills.
Some players really hate the idea of burn and would never take a single burn anyways, this archetype at least gives them something for never taking burn.

So it's not like the Zen Archer that is "OMG always take"
But it's an option for those who'd like it.

[swoosh]

I was fiddling with a kitsune overwhelming soul and just decided a regular kitsune kineticist would be better.

Yeah, you pretty much always want to gather, but being stuck to only using two burn abilities with a full round or once per day really hurts (moreso when you need a full round and a 1/day cap on 3 burn abilities) and 4 burn abilities are just permanently out of reach.

It shuts down a ton of your utility and gives you very, very little in return. Not taking burn is nice, but at best that's just equal to what you're giving up in CON modifier and even then you're still down on fort saves and with a much smaller number of utility talents and neutering your elemental defense.

[Derek Dalton]

Here's the reason I want to play an overwhelming Soul. I have played a regular and loved the class. Some of the abilities require Burn to be activated and in some cases not worth it. Now here's my issue with Burn. 1HP non lethal damage per character level. Think about that that's with a midlevel character 5 HP per Burn adding up quick. I never got Burn taking the actions needed to remove any burn. Nonlethal damage that doesn't heal except rest. That means you are anywhere from 1 to 20 hit points down per burn use. Nonlethal or not that's still lost HP. Overwhelming Soul with the right choices and tactics are in my mind a better pick then a standard Kintecist. I'd pick a race with high Dex and Chr and be that then even something with high Con.

[Trogdar]

The developers are under the impression that unlimited uses of something is meaningful. As a result, they went crazy tuning the kineticist in playtest and then , when the complaints about their balance metric(burn) reached a certain height, they promised an archetype to trade away that feature. There were also some concerns about creatures without con scores being restricted, but I think this was a tertiary issue.

Obviously, I don't ascribe to the unlimited use equals power fallacy, otherwise we'd see nothing but complaints about the overpowered nature of our 'all day' classes. Since that has pretty much never happened, its clear to me that it is a poor means of tracking power.

[swoosh]

Burn does suck, but I don't think that's a huge boon for overwhelming soul. After all, at level 5 (the level you picked) the only thing an overwhelming soul has is that free +1 to attack and damage and a normal kineticist can get the same thing with only one point of burn (which given the con focus gives the overwhelming soul only marginally more HP afterwards).

In exchange the overwhelming soul loses the ability to use 3 burn skills atogether and needs to spend two rounds to use anything that costs two burn.

At level 6 it gets a bit better, the overwhelming soul can use 3 burn abilities, but only with two rounds AND only once a day.

It also pulls ahead by forcing the normal kineticist to get 2 burn to keep up with the attack and damage, but that's not a pure win either because at that point the regular kineticist is getting +2 to two ability scores.

Not even to mention that Overwhelming Souls can't fuel their elemental defense, which means even the survivability advantage starts to fade.

So I have to agree this archetype only really seems like a win for characters without a con score. Undead in particular negate many of the drawbacks of the archetype by deriving fort and hp from Con.

Trogdar wrote:

The developers are under the impression that unlimited uses of something is meaningful. As a result, they went crazy tuning the kineticist in playtest and then , when the complaints about their balance metric(burn) reached a certain height, they promised an archetype to trade away that feature. There were also some concerns about creatures without con scores being restricted, but I think this was a tertiary issue.

Oh I understand the source. But "doesn't have to deal with burn" just sort of turned into "can't utilize half their class features and gets nothing in return" in my opinion and that's terrible.

Though it's not really surprising either, given that basically every kineticist archetype ranges from at best ehh to downright bad. Which is a shame because most of them are pretty cool.

[Derek Dalton]

Like I said played one picking Earth as my first element. Was a Hobgoblin a great race for it +2 Dex,+2 Con no stat loss. Had a blast with him. Was he overpowering, no not at all. I avoided Burn by taking actions which slowed me down. I picked a couple of feats that I would have traded to improve me. I dealt a lot of damage but not any more then a fighter or a Wizard of that level. Could I have done more damage, yes at the cost of Burn and maybe better feats. But at some point a Wizard in some situations would kick out more damage. A fighter might in some situations as would a Rogue. I don't think it's an over powering class but it is a solid well designed class in my mind.

[Chess Pwn]

Derek Dalton wrote:

Here's the reason I want to play an overwhelming Soul. I have played a regular and loved the class. Some of the abilities require Burn to be activated and in some cases not worth it. Now here's my issue with Burn. 1HP non lethal damage per character level. Think about that that's with a midlevel character 5 HP per Burn adding up quick. I never got Burn taking the actions needed to remove any burn. Nonlethal damage that doesn't heal except rest. That means you are anywhere from 1 to 20 hit points down per burn use. Nonlethal or not that's still lost HP. Overwhelming Soul with the right choices and tactics are in my mind a better pick then a standard Kintecist. I'd pick a race with high Dex and Chr and be that then even something with high Con.

Your overwhelming soul has what 14 con? That's a pretty average amount.

A normal kineticist has what 18 con? I can take 2 burn and still be running as much effective HP as you have total HP. Then at lv6 since I'll be gaining the Con size boost I can take another burn. That's 3 burn and still just as much HP as your overwhelming soul. So I can pump 3 burn into my Defense, making it better than yours, and have just as much HP to run around with, and if I do drop, I am not close to actual death like you'd be when you drop. Now I can play just the same so the Overwhelming soul and never take more burn and I just have better boosts and defense. Plus I have the option to take more burn if needed, yes if I do that puts me at a lower total than the OS, but I feel having the option to save the day is better than not.

This is the thing I find so funny, people are worried about the temp HP and don't stop to realize that their effective HP is the same or higher than other classes.

[Trogdar]

My issue with burn is largely that, outside of filling your overflow and using burn on defense to pick up your size bonuses, you can basically use it once a day on something. The funny thing is, its equivalent in value to a wizards highest level spell in terms of cost, but its effect is really unimpressive.

[Kahel Stormbender]

Yeah, not being able to pump up elemental defense as an overwhelming soul can be a pain. Then again, not all of them are worth pumping up. it takes 4 or 5 points of burn for example before the aerokinetic elemental defense is all that reliable at low levels. Same for the earth elemental defense. The fire one? Kinda meh IMO. Aether gets a decent elemental defense, but accepting burn kinda negates the usefulness to an extent. Of them all, water's the only elemental defense that is worth pumping and doesn't cost a lot of burn to do so.

Oh, and an overwhelming soul can't really use their internal buffer. To fill it they would have to willingly accept burn. Aside from the fact that this ability got traded away to begin with.

Besides which, in PFS diplomacy is a very useful skill to have. My kitsune overwhelming soul was converted to such from standard kineticist during the level 1 rebuild because my lodge at the time didn't have a 'face'.

EDIT: fixed something I caught when rereading

[Trogdar]

I would rather get skill focus if diplomacy was that high a priority. You would need need 22 charisma just to account for the feat.

[Kahel Stormbender]

The rebuild did give me 18 starting charisma. So I didn't really lose any damage or DC. In fact I gained damage cause I switched from electric blast to air blast. Kinda regret that now.

[Trogdar]

Yeah, I get where your coming from, I just dont value ability scores that highly when it comes to skills(baring very specific synergies like wizard casting off intelligence). Even with a dumped charisma, you can make a pretty good face if you have the skill points.

[Kahel Stormbender]

True, but if you could get the bonuses of a higher charisma as an overwhelming soul and an equivalent damage boost without losing any effective HP, would you consider this a worthy trade? Kahel lost 3 HP/level in the rebuild due to con dropping from 18 to 12. But effective HP stays the same since I'd typically been running around with having eaten 3 burn towards the start of any given day in-game in order to pump up elemental defense and get Overflow bonus.

[Trogdar]

Kahel Stormbender wrote:

True, but if you could get the bonuses of a higher charisma as an overwhelming soul and an equivalent damage boost without losing any effective HP, would you consider this a worthy trade? Kahel lost 3 HP/level in the rebuild due to con dropping from 18 to 12. But effective HP stays the same since I'd typically been running around with having eaten 3 burn towards the start of any given day in-game in order to pump up elemental defense and get Overflow bonus.

For me, the answer is probably no. This is just a value judgment thats pretty subjective, but I know that the overwhelming soul narrows your options some and I dont think the base kineticist had a tremendous amount of options to begin with.

There is also a kind of over investment upper limit on skills for the most part, coupled with the general trend of GM's frowning on diplomancers. These things are very personal though, so it may not really bug you.

[Kahel Stormbender]

In PFS, diplomacy can be a very make or break skill. :)

[Azten]

With a couple Traits it's a class skill. With Greater Skilled Kineticist you add half you Kineticist level to it. Makes a decent face with low Charisma modifiers.

[Texas Snyper]

While the archtype was primarily for those without CON scores, like undead, I also like the idea of a gestalt sorcerer//overwhelming soul. You get the all day blasting from the kineticist, which leaves all of your sorc spells known to be all support and utility. With both using CHA as your casting stat you can then be the party face as well.

Also, burn really isn't all that bad at all. At level 6, I'm sitting on 67 HP right now with a CON mod of 5 (after EO). Most casters are going to only have a CON mod of 1 or 2. Being able to invest in the defense makes me beefier than the OS types.

[Kahel Stormbender]

If retraining rules allowed for reallocating base attributes I'd consider dropping the archtype now. As it is I'm considering switching back to electric blast. That, and maybe swapping kinetic blade for thundering infusion.

[Squiggit]

Kahel Stormbender wrote:

Yeah, not being able to pump up elemental defense as an overwhelming soul can be a pain. Then again, not all of them are worth pumping up. it takes 4 or 5 points of burn for example before the aerokinetic elemental defense is all that reliable at low levels. Same for the earth elemental defense. The fire one? Kinda meh IMO. Aether gets a decent elemental defense, but accepting burn kinda negates the usefulness to an extent. Of them all, water's the only elemental defense that is worth pumping and doesn't cost a lot of burn to do so.

I think you're underselling them a bit. Aether's value might only be half what you're putting into it, but the fat that it regenerates makes it pretty damn strong. Admittedly campaign dependent though. If you fight battles back to back it's a marginal buffer but if you fight battles ten or twenty minutes apart it's a great tool.

Earth has the opposite problem of air (especially with burn, 1 point of burn for 1 DR is awful at higher levels). Wood is pretty solid.. and I'd add Void along with Fire in terms of really meh ones.

Though I think the point was less extolling the virtues of Elemental Defense and more suggesting the premise that a kineticist pretending to be an overwhelming soul by just dumping burn into defense and blasting normally is still better than the overwhelming soul at its own gimmick.

[Kahel Stormbender]

It kind of depends on what you want your focus to be. I picture Kahel as a librarian and diplomat first, combatant second. She's much more at home among dusty tomes and shelves of scrolls then she is in an ancient tomb. So a focus on Cha (having to deal with people every day as a librarian) makes sense. That, and her family were traveling merchants. Communication skills are something she was taught from an early age.

[graystone]

Kahel Stormbender wrote:

It kind of depends on what you want your focus to be. I picture Kahel as a librarian and diplomat first, combatant second. She's much more at home among dusty tomes and shelves of scrolls then she is in an ancient tomb. So a focus on Cha (having to deal with people every day as a librarian) makes sense. That, and her family were traveling merchants. Communication skills are something she was taught from an early age.

That's a good argument for putting points in those skills not for having a high stat. ;)

Squiggit: Void's defense's value all depends on how often you run into undead/necromancy magic. So it's more tied to setting than the more universally useful ones like Aether/Earth/wood. In the right world it can be quite useful but it's not too useful normally.

[Mark Seifter]

Azten wrote:

With a couple Traits it's a class skill. With Greater Skilled Kineticist you add half you Kineticist level to it. Makes a decent face with low Charisma modifiers.

Only overwhelming souls themselves can take Diplomacy with greater skilled kineticist, since it's a kineticist class skill for them. Characters using a trait have the skill as a personal class skill, but it's still not a class skill for their class unless it was already (they make the skill "always a class skill for you" rather than for the class, whereas greater skilled kineticist only works on kineticist class skills). That ability actually makes overwhelming souls who use it incredible faces from the raw bonus perspective.

[Matrix Dragon]

I love charisma based classes and I should have been one the the Overwhelming Soul's biggest fans. However... the changes to the class are so mathematically painful that I can't bring myself to build one.

Let me put it this way: a standard kineticist who simply gives himself enough burn at the start of each day to have hit points equivalent to that of an Overwhelming Soul will be both more accurate and deal more damage per hit than the Overwhelming Soul. This is because the static bonuses that the Overwhelming Soul gets are significantly weaker than what the standard kineticist gets with just a few points of burn, not to mention that it is more MAD.

Being good with diplomacy and such is nice, but I don't think it should cost such a big chunk of your combat and utility abilities.

[Azten]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Azten wrote:

With a couple Traits it's a class skill. With Greater Skilled Kineticist you add half you Kineticist level to it. Makes a decent face with low Charisma modifiers.

Only overwhelming souls themselves can take Diplomacy with greater skilled kineticist, since it's a kineticist class skill for them. Characters using a trait have the skill as a personal class skill, but it's still not a class skill for their class unless it was already (they make the skill "always a class skill for you" rather than for the class, whereas greater skilled kineticist only works on kineticist class skills). That ability actually makes overwhelming souls who use it incredible faces from the raw bonus perspective.

No offense, but that seems ncredibly nitpicky in my eyes, especially for an otherwise weak utility talent(though on Perception it's pretty powerful).. Scratch another cool idea from Kineticist. :(