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I just got done running scenario 53 a bit ago. Was a fun session, but we got held up a few times when the party's sorcerer used spells I'm honestly unfamiliar with. My experience has long been that most arcane casters prefer the big flashy spells like fireball, burning hands, and scorching ray. Maybe a web spell or two. And very rarely the Sleep spell. So those are the spells I'm most familiar with how they work.
What ground the session to a halt a couple times was me having to look up how unfamiliar spells like Color Spray and Hypnotism work. or the druid casting Entangle. That's another spell I've rarely seen people use. Then again I've not seen many people play druids either over the years. While it was kinda cool to see people using crowd controls I've never gotten to see in use before, it did bring things to a halt as I had to research the spell and how it works.
Which got me to wondering, how do others feel about this happening? As a game master, do you rejoice in people using spells you've never witnessed players using before? Maybe take notes on how effective it is and consider using that spell yourself sometime? Or do you get upset with them for making you look up how the spell works?
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When the spell comes up because it's an NPC using it, I need to know. Or when the spell does weird things like hypnotism does, yeah GM needs to know exactly how it works. The person using the spell and another long time vet had been a little fuzzy on details of the spell too. Details such as "can I tell the badguys 'drop your equipment' while they're under the effects and have them do so?" and "Will the spell prevent them from picking their equipment back up?"
But still, that doesn't answer my question. when the players pull some trick out of their bag that you've never seen before or aren't very familiar with, does it excite you or annoy you? And why?
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Yes. I am excited, if the player has the relevant rules readily accessible, and/or a precis of how it works.
Yes, I am annoyed, if the player does not have the rules, or cannot explain how it works to me.
On the "NPCs I am running use these spells" thing, looking those spells up is, or should be, part of your GM prep.
Honestly, I have seen Color Spray used a lot more often than Sleep. Color Spray is a Standard action spell, so more easily cast than Sleep, which is a full round casting, and makes the caster a legitimate (and priority!) target.
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I'd honestly not noticed that a dragon bloodline sorc in the module had color spray during prep. The rest was pretty standard. Any spells used were ones I'm very familiar with. And there weren't many spell casters to worry about anyway. And when I double checked tactics, it mentioned using the spell, so I needed to figure out how it works.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Maybe you'll feel more comfortable if you tell your players that whenever they cast a spell (or use any other weird power/feat) they should have the text of it ready in hand for you to look through?
That saves you a lot of time looking stuff up on the spot (while being busy keeping the game moving). Meantime, the player who's waiting for his turn can look up his next spell.
This is basically how the Additional Resources system works already; a player is responsible for having any AR he uses available during the game. And the player is the most familiar with his own stack of books, or tablet/laptop/smartphone that he's using to look stuff up.
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Maybe you'll feel more comfortable if you tell your players that whenever they cast a spell (or use any other weird power/feat) they should have the text of it ready in hand for you to look through?
Bingo. Whenever a player uses a feat, class ability, or especially a spell that I am unfamiliar with, I ask them "could you please hand me the book/pdf open to that item? Meanwhile, Kahel is up next. Do you need to wait for that effect to be resolved?"
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I'm surprised that those spells were unfamiliar for you; color spray in particular. That said, I do tend to go "hey wait a second, I'm not familiar with that one, What's the spell do?" when someone brings out something new and shiny. I'm usually okay with a verbal description but when the player's response is muddled or the spell seems unusually effective/useless or I have a memory of it doing something different, I'll pull out the phone and look at the source. Sometimes this is a thing you can delegate to other players at the table; if you've got a good group you trust, they can sort out what the spell is supposed to do and show you a reference on a phone while you deal with the next PC up.
I'm fine with seeing things I've never seen before. I hope you are too! It's a really good way to learn how effective options are without having to try it on a character, too.
The one related thing that really irritates me are the players who do things like yell "Will save!" without explaining what they're doing or why I need to be making a save or who even needs to be saving.
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DM: "For the moment it'll work the way you think. However, that may change when I get a chance to look it up later. "
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I'm always intrigued when a player uses a new spell. That means either A. they've begun to do more independent research into playing the game and developing the character, or B. They've found a new handbook. Either way, I'm happy they're getting excited about the game plus I learn something new. Just have your source, and I'm content.
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Around here, it's not even a question. 80% of the players at my tables are doing something with their PC that I don't know anything about, whether it's spells, the newer classes that I haven't had a chance to read up on in detail, obscure feats, traits, etc from books that I don't know, etc.
After not doing much PFS in about a year and a half (most of seasons 5 and 6), I came back and GMed a session at the start of season 7, and 5 of the 6 PCs at the table were classes where I'd never read the class description. I knew how the paladin's character worked, and that was it. Everyone else was playing ACG or Occult classes that I didn't know, along with one gunslinger, which I know a little bit about from having been at tables with a few, but I've never wanted to play one, so I never read the class details for myself.
That's just the nature of organized play. People show up with stuff from whatever books they want, and you've got to deal. When they do something I don't know, I just ask "how does that work?" and go with it. I rarely need enough detail to spend time looking things up during the game, but I will if necessary. If something seems overpowered, I'll look it up after the game to make sure the player was explaining/using it properly.
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If an NPC is showing a spell you don't know, you should have looked it up beforehand when you were prepping the game.
If your player, other than a newbie playing a pregen, says "I want to cast magic missile!" (assuming for the sake of argument that we don't all know exactly how magic missile works) you should be able to ask them, "Ok, so what does that do?" and get an intelligible answer. If they just look at you blankly, or say, "I'm attacking the darkness!" or something else dumb, you can tell them to look up the spell and what it does, and have their character delay until they have it. This works best if other players have turns coming up before NPCs.
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Gamers in my area might be a little unusual. But I've only infrequently encountered people who used crowd control spells. Usually they'd use Sleep, Web, (badly) use Entangle, and one guy was fond of charm person/monster. I GMed for a bard who absolutely loved Otto's Irresistible Dance too. Otherwise it was always buffs, the occasional debuff, and damage spells. Color spray I think would get overlooked due to it's limited effect on high HD critters.
Hadn't seen someone use Hypnotism since 2nd edition, until last night. And that was nearly 20 years ago. I think the enemy saved vs the spell too so the effect didn't come up.
As a player, I'm fond of the evocation school the most, but have ran illusionists and transmuters in the past too. Enchanters, not so much. But then I usually play a sorcerer so have limited spell choices. Thus I tend to gravitate towards spells I'm more familiar with. I also tend to favor spells which aren't as ambiguous as Suggestion.
All in all, kinda cool to see things I'm unfamiliar with.
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Gamers in my area might be a little unusual. But I've only infrequently encountered people who used crowd control spells. Usually they'd use Sleep, Web, (badly) use Entangle, and one guy was fond of charm person/monster. I GMed for a bard who absolutely loved Otto's Irresistible Dance too. Otherwise it was always buffs, the occasional debuff, and damage spells. Color spray I think would get overlooked due to it's limited effect on high HD critters.
That's really surprising. I think Grease is the fourth most popular spell in the game, after Cure Light Wounds, Detect Magic, and Bless. It might be tied with Bless for third, actually.
Personally, I have a level 7 conjuration specialist sorcerer in PFS, who literally isn't capable of doing direct HP damage to enemies. He has no weapon (not even a dagger) and no direct damage spells. His "go to" spells are Grease, Glitterdust, and Haste, but he also has stuff like Web, Create Pit, Expeditious Excavation, and the Summon Monster spells, though I only summon if I'm at a table with not enough tanks in the party.
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In the past I've had groups get soured on spells like Grease and Entangle, mostly due to them being poorly used. Druid drops an Entangle right in the middle of combat for example, forcing the entire party to save vs entangle. Party all fails the save, badguys make the save cause the GM's dice are rolling hot. Really annoying.
I've had a fighter slip off a cliff once due to a careless casting of Grease.
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Seriously, used at the right time and place, Grease, Glitterdust, Hideous Laughter, Color Spray, even Daze can make a serious difference.
Yeah, CLW, Bless, Detect Magic, Grease, and Glitterdust, along with Haste or Blessing of Fervor, are very common spells in my area.
Entangle requires a bit of work on the caster/player's part, but if they pay attention, they can get good mileage out of it, it is just that the AoE is so large, and the limiting factors are so limiting.
Then again, I have seen Endure Elements make a serious difference in an entire scenario's difficulty. Starting an encounter fatigued with nonlethal damage, compared to no penalties and full health? Yeah. Minus 2 may not sound like much, but it adds up, amazingly. Which is also one of the reasons why the Unchained Rogue can have his moments of awesome.
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I'd imagine so. Now that I've actually read and studied color spray. And seen it in action. Having combatants just standing there in a stupor can make the fight far easier (or harder if it happens to the party). And after seeing Dominate and Hypnotism used well, I'm looking at them again for my own casters. Seriously, at one point last night the group was fighting a troll who kept standing up, only to sit back down since there wasn't enough space for it to fall prone.
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Color spray is almost unfair at low to mid levels. First, it is a battle ender (save or suck) so it is already better than things like DPR. Second, a properly built caster will have a high enough save DC that it'll work more often than it doesn't. Third, it is an AoE so its better than other spells like daze or hold person and takes advantage of the economy of actions advantage the PCs typically have and makes it even better. Fourth, it has duration (for the most part) so usually if you are affected, you're dead-meat. When my casters use it, I kind feel dirty and need a shower to wash off the OP. ;-)
I am certainly glad that very few enemy casters have it. There would be waaay too many TPKs as a result.
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To say nothing of the Oracle shenanigans...
Damage is typically the least powerful thing a spellcaster can do. Too many non-damaging spells are encounter-enders when used appropriately.
Will saves also tend to be the easiest saves to target for most low-to-mid CR creatures, at which point Reflex takes over. So AoE spells that disable your enemies and target Will saves can be pretty ridiculous.
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The big disadvantage of Color Spray is the range. What sorcerer or wizard wants to be within 15 feet of the enemies who make that save? I'm not saying that it's not OP, but it does have a drawback to using.
Heh, yeah. It makes knowledge skills far more valuable in a funny sort of way. Is this thing going to be vulnerable to mind-affecting effects?
I killed a color spray oracle last month when he tried to color-spray a wight...
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DM: "For the moment it'll work the way you think. However, that may change when I get a chance to look it up later. "
Close. It's more like...
GM: "For the moment it'll work the way you think. However, I am unfamiliar with that spell, so please look up the wording when your turn is complete so I can see exactly what it says."
Or on the chance that you think their version is wrong...
GM: "For the moment it'll work the way I think. Once your turn is done, you may look up the wording and we can revisit it to change what happened if I am wrong."
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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DM: "For the moment it'll work the way you think. However, that may change when I get a chance to look it up later. "Close. It's more like...
GM: "For the moment it'll work the way you think. However, I am unfamiliar with that spell, so please look up the wording when your turn is complete so I can see exactly what it says."
Or on the chance that you think their version is wrong...
GM: "For the moment it'll work the way I think. Once your turn is done, you may look up the wording and we can revisit it to change what happened if I am wrong."
That works but its also worth pointing out that FAQs and Errata do exist so looking them up in text doesn't help out that much. My Mesmerist has two spells where that is the case.
Color spray is almost unfair at low to mid levels. First, it is a battle ender (save or suck) so it is already better than things like DPR. Second, a properly built caster will have a high enough save DC that it'll work more often than it doesn't. Third, it is an AoE so its better than other spells like daze or hold person and takes advantage of the economy of actions advantage the PCs typically have and makes it even better. Fourth, it has duration (for the most part) so usually if you are affected, you're dead-meat. When my casters use it, I kind feel dirty and need a shower to wash off the OP. ;-)
I am certainly glad that very few enemy casters have it. There would be waaay too many TPKs as a result.
Ehhh... Its a bit overrated especially early on where you can't negate the fact that its useless against a wide variety of common Pathfinder monsters. And even then the earliest ability any spellcaster can get to negate the immunity renders it into a one target spell.
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That works but its also worth pointing out that FAQs and Errata do exist so looking them up in text doesn't help out that much. My Mesmerist has two spells where that is the case.DM: "For the moment it'll work the way you think. However, that may change when I get a chance to look it up later. "Close. It's more like...
GM: "For the moment it'll work the way you think. However, I am unfamiliar with that spell, so please look up the wording when your turn is complete so I can see exactly what it says."
Or on the chance that you think their version is wrong...
GM: "For the moment it'll work the way I think. Once your turn is done, you may look up the wording and we can revisit it to change what happened if I am wrong."
Then they can look up the errata or FAQ...
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Ehhh... Its a bit overrated especially early on where you can't negate the fact that its useless against a wide variety of common Pathfinder monsters.
Certainly no tactic is 100% effective all the time, but given that the vast majority of low-tier enemies are humanoids and animals, it is exceedingly effective, arguably the most effective 1st level spell in the book. Most encounters at low tier are mooks or mooks and a BBEG. The mooks tend to be fighter-types or rogue-types, usually with poor will saves, so many encounters can be negated entirely or at least significantly nerf'd by effective placement of color spray.
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Color spray is almost unfair at low to mid levels. First, it is a battle ender (save or suck) so it is already better than things like DPR. Second, a properly built caster will have a high enough save DC that it'll work more often than it doesn't. Third, it is an AoE so its better than other spells like daze or hold person and takes advantage of the economy of actions advantage the PCs typically have and makes it even better. Fourth, it has duration (for the most part) so usually if you are affected, you're dead-meat. When my casters use it, I kind feel dirty and need a shower to wash off the OP. ;-)
I am certainly glad that very few enemy casters have it. There would be waaay too many TPKs as a result.
One: You shower? Learn something new everyday.
Two: Ledford's Gang laughs at your last sentence.|
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First steps...GM's loved color spray in that one :)
Ive been seeing the DnD spell cards and would love to see Paizo make these products. I use index cards for my spells when I GM so I have a quick reference for them. I encourage players to have something similar if they are using unusual spells. Normally, I'll let it slide and look up after game unless it seems overpowered then I'll look up in game. Hero Lab works great with this.
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Ehhh... Its a bit overrated especially early on where you can't negate the fact that its useless against a wide variety of common Pathfinder monsters.Certainly no tactic is 100% effective all the time, but given that the vast majority of low-tier enemies are humanoids and animals, it is exceedingly effective, arguably the most effective 1st level spell in the book. Most encounters at low tier are mooks or mooks and a BBEG. The mooks tend to be fighter-types or rogue-types, usually with poor will saves, so many encounters can be negated entirely or at least significantly nerf'd by effective placement of color spray.
Color spray is way OP. It has it's limits, btu those can be circumvented. My first character has successfully color sprayed a vampire with caster levels(I think it was a cleric).
I prefer OP tactics because you do not have to use them, but when your mates are in trouble and need help it is a good ace in the whole.
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As a player, I try to have the spell I plan to cast pulled up before it gets to my turn. That way I can remind myself how it works if it's something I don't use often, and I can show the GM if needed. Something like Color Spray, even though it's common and a lot of people know how it works in general, still seems to require reading off the list of how it affects creatures depending on HD. My Magus makes heavy use of Blade Lash out of the ACG. Since it's a newish spell, I try to let the GM know before the game starts. The biggest thing GM's seem to question is that it includes a free trip attempt as part of the casting of the spell, so with Spell Combat you get your normal attacks as well as the trip attempt (all at -2 from Spell Combat, but +10 on the trip from the spell for a net +8).
My Cleric of Torag, depending on what role he's going to be playing, makes use of the Brood of Torag spells. Those tend to be things GMs don't even know exist, but there are some powerful spells in that list. Watchful Eye (basically a 1st level minutes per level Shield Other), Mighty Strength (Basically a 4th level Bull's Strength, but granting a +8 bonus instead of +4), and Invigorating Repose (Extends the time you have to cast Breath of Life on a dead character to half your caster level in rounds instead of 1 round and Empowers the healing). It's too bad you can only have access to one of the spells each day.
As a GM, as others have mentioned, I'll try to read up on any unfamiliar spells NPCs have. If a PC pulls something unexpected, I'll generally trust their interpretation, but if we aren't pressed for time, I might ask them to pull up the description just so I can familiarize myself with it and make sure I get everything right. Sometimes even if the players knows how a spell works, they might not know the NPCs defenses, so it's important as a GM to know things like what descriptors are on a spell.
An example would be Blistering Invective. A player might rightly explain that it grants a Demoralize check against everyone within 30 feet, and if they are demoralized successfully they might catch fire. The player might forget that it's a language dependent spell, and therefore useless against an enemy without a shared language. They might be assuming the goblins or Giants or whatever they are trying to affect speak common.
So sometimes it's important to check just in case, even when the player seems confident about how the spell works.