According to the Magic Item Creation Rules:
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours.
Does this minimum increase with various ways to increase the gp per 8 hours? For example, if you accelerate the crafting process, is the minimum for any item still 8 hours even though you craft at a rate of 2,000 per 8 hours, or is the minimum now 4 hours? Likewise, if you have Cooperative Casting and are accelerating, you craft at a rate of 4,000 per 8 hours, but is the minimum now 2 hours?
To give a specific example, if I wanted to craft a level 1 wand, the base price is 750gp, which by default would take 8 hours of crafting (e.g. four days of crafting while adventuring). Would I be able to craft that wand in just two hours (e.g. during a single day of adventuring) if I have a Valet familiar and we accelerate?
I'd say no, the text says "with a minimum of at least 8 hours." It then gives a specific exception that potions and scrolls that cost 250gp or less take 2 hours minimum instead of 8 hours minimum. Nowhere does it say that accelerated crafting lowers the minimum required time, same with the Valet -- both of those simply let you make more gp worth of progress in the same amount of time but do nothing to lower the minimum time needed. As a result, it's still 8 hours minimum to create a wand no matter how much you accelerate it by.
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Note, there is no "minimum" DAILY crafting time. You could craft 1 hour a day if you want to, or even 1 minute a day if you want to, but of course that's absurd.
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day.
So work as few hours or as many hours each day as you want, just don't go over 8 hours on any day.
There is a minimum TOTAL time for crafting. If you somehow craft an item that costs only 1 gp, you still must spend 8 hours of total time on it (except potions and scrolls worth less than 250gp). but you could work 1 minute a day for 480 days if you really want to.
Does this minimum increase with various ways to increase the gp per 8 hours? For example, if you accelerate the crafting process, is the minimum for any item still 8 hours even though you craft at a rate of 2,000 per 8 hours, or is the minimum now 4 hours?
I've actually seen this both ways. I've even seen it where the GM ruled that accelerating still doesn't let you do more than 1,000gp per day, but now you can do it in 4 hours - wrap it up by lunch and spend the afternoon at the pub. There's even justification for this ruling based on this wording:
This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5.
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day
So the italicized part says he can accelerate the process to 4 hours and, right after that in the next paragraph it says he cannot rush the process by working longer each day - it's plausible to assume that "longer" refers to BOTH the regular 8 hour day AND the accelerated 4 hour day which produces 8 hours of work.
I disagree, but I've seen it played that way.
Short answer: check with your GM.
Likewise, if you have Cooperative Casting and are accelerating, you craft at a rate of 4,000 per 8 hours, but is the minimum now 2 hours?
No, the feat does what it says. Two people work together on one project and they double the amount they produce. That says nothing about shortening the time. So 8 hours is still the maximum and there still is no minimum - however long you work is worth 2x the normal amount of production or 4x if you're also accelerating for +5 DC.
To give a specific example, if I wanted to craft a level 1 wand, the base price is 750gp, which by default would take 8 hours of crafting (e.g. four days of crafting while adventuring). Would I be able to craft that wand in just two hours (e.g. during a single day of adventuring) if I have a Valet familiar and we accelerate?
This wand has a minimum total time of 8 hours.
You could work 8 hours in just one day, or 1 hour per day for 8 days, or 15 minutes a day for 32 days, etc. While adventuring you cannot accomplish more than 2 hours of crafting (which would take you 4 hours), which means it takes 4 days.
You could also accelerate which adds +5 to the DC but lets you finish in 4 total hours, rather than 8. You could work 4 hours in just one day, or 1 hour per day for 4 days, or 15 minutes a day for 16 days, etc. While adventuring you cannot accomplish more than 2 hours of crafting (which would take you 4 hours), which means it takes 2 days.
If you take advantage of Cooperative Crafting (e.g. with a Valet familiar) you can get twice as much done in the same time period:
You and your helper could work 4 hours in just one day, or 1 hour per day for 4 days, or 15 minutes a day for 16 days, etc. While adventuring you and your helper cannot accomplish more than 2 hours EACH of crafting (which would take you 4 hours each), which means it takes 2 days.
You and your helper could also accelerate which adds +5 to the DC but lets you finish in 4 total hours, rather than 8. You and your helper could work 4 hours in just one day, or 1 hour per day for 2 days, or 15 minutes a day for 8 days, etc. While adventuring you and your helper cannot accomplish more than 2 hours EACH of crafting (which would take you 4 hours each), which means it takes 1 day.
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Another wrinkle to consider is that when on the road and adventuring, you're only able to devote 4 hours a day to crafting, and only get credit for 2 hours of crafting, as Blake mentions. Crafting rules assume normally that you're in a safe location with no distractions. Working while on the road is not safe or distraction free.
Also, be VERY careful about allowing take 10 for crafting. And as the GM you should always figure out the actual DC, not all players will be aware of the full rules. For example a word caster only adds +2 to the DC if they have word spell that's similar to the actual spell required. You know, instead of the usual +5 DC for bypassing a requirement you don't meet.
Also, some things may not be possible to craft on the road. Unless you already have a masterwork item on hand to enchant, you can't realistically forge a masterwork sword or armor then enchant it. Similarly I'd have trouble believing someone is forging a ring while delving into a dungeon. If they want to craft in the field, make sure the player gets all the components needed before heading out into the field.
Also, be VERY careful about allowing take 10 for crafting.
Why, exactly? You're very unlikely to be crafting an item in the middle of combat or while hanging off a cliff. Take 10 is basically made for out-of-combat skills like crafting.
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Game balance mostly. You need to verify the player actually can hit the number he's citing. And make sure the DC they are comparing to is the right one. I've seen people abuse the GM not fully understanding the crafting rules to make things they shouldn't be able to. Which I didn't realize they were doing till I read up on the rules due to making a crafter.
EDIT TO ADD: Makes me rather cautious about when people want to craft.
Also because if you allow take 10 for craft checks there's 0 chance of ever crafting a Cursed item by failing a check badly.
And if you don't allow take 10 then nobody in their right mind is going to craft until they can hit the check on a 3 or something low. Magic crafting ain't cheep after all.
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Oh, my crafter character build makes stuff. But is cautious bout it. Doesn't usually push limits like making a +8 bracer of armor at level 5. A +2 bracer of armor, sure, but not a +8 one. The higher the crafting DC, the more things you have to work around not having access to, the more likely you are to fail. My wordcaster crafter can reliably make things with a DC of 25 if I take 10. But I do have to work around all the spell required components. So what I can make without any risk is actually not that big of a list. A CL 16 item with multiple spells required and minimum level to make? I'll probably have to risk a roll to make it.
Which is exactly as it should be. Pushing the limits of what you can make should bring with it risks.
Oh, my crafter character build makes stuff. But is cautious bout it. Doesn't usually push limits like making a +8 bracer of armor at level 5. A +2 bracer of armor, sure, but not a +8 one. The higher the crafting DC, the more things you have to work around not having access to, the more likely you are to fail. My wordcaster crafter can reliably make things with a DC of 25 if I take 10. But I do have to work around all the spell required components. So what I can make without any risk is actually not that big of a list. A CL 16 item with multiple spells required and minimum level to make? I'll probably have to risk a roll to make it.
Which is exactly as it should be. Pushing the limits of what you can make should bring with it risks.
How on god's earth do you have the money to craft +8 bracers at level 5. Does your GM's setting literally rain Gold from the sky?
I think the problem here is that you expect the crafting rules to stop low level PCs from blowing absurd amounts of money on powerful magic items when what should be stopping PCs from doing that is the fact that those items cost absurd amounts of money.
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One of the campaigns in question was Serpent's Skull. By the time we got off the damn island in the beginning everyone had ridiculous amounts of money for our level. And the GM wasn't well versed in the crafting rules, which the guy playing an alchemist was taking advantage of. Or well versed in Alchemists in general I think. Which again meant the player taking advantage of GM not knowing all the fiddly bits.
Aside from the fact that an alchemist doesn't actually qualify for crafting feats without first taking Master Craftsman, which again the GM wasn't aware of.
Crafting is something that can seriously unbalance a campaign if the GM isn't careful. Getting powerful magic items the GM may not want in the game (yet) at half the cost can be unbalancing. I personally suggest reading the crafting rules very well before you allow a player to take crafting feats.
Also, be VERY careful about allowing take 10 for crafting.
Also because if you allow take 10 for craft checks there's 0 chance of ever crafting a Cursed item by failing a check badly.
No, no, no.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using Take-10 on a magic item crafting check.
The devs weren't ambiguous on that answer. Not even a bit. No hesitation or uncertainty there. About as straight-forward as any FAQ answer has ever been. Ever.
You need to verify the player actually can hit the number he's citing.
Oh, that's different but it has nothing to do with Taking-10. You should be exactly the same amount of careful about the number he's citing if he's rolling his crafting check too.
If you have a player who will come up with the wrong DC, accidentally or on purpose, then that's going to happen regardless of whether you're using Take-10 rules. So just always make sure of that DC and then you have nothing to worry about, then follow the RAW as clarified by the FAQ and use Take-10 with no worries at all.
The GM was very poorly versed in magic item creation since it requires at least a lvl 16 caster to make bracers of armor +8.
Nope, a level 3 caster could make those +8 bracers if he had 32,000gp to provide the raw materials. The Spellcraft DC would be 26: 5 + 16 (item caster level) + 5 for not meeting the CL requirement (the creator is not level 16).
So assume INT 20 and 3 ranks in Spellcraft and the crafter is a wizard who knows Mage Armor, that's +11 to the Spellcraft DC at level 3. If he really wanted to optimize, he could have the Theoretical Magician trait (+2) and the Skill Focus (Spellcraft) Feat (+3) and now he's +16 on the roll. Now he can make those bracers at level 3 with just a Take-10 roll. No chance of failure. 100% guaranteed or your money back. Speaking of money, the only thing stopping most level 3 wizard crafters is that they don't usually have 32,000gp lying around.
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The GM was very poorly versed in magic item creation since it requires at least a lvl 16 caster to make bracers of armor +8.Nope, a level 3 caster could make those +8 bracers if he had 32,000gp to provide the raw materials. The Spellcraft DC would be 26: 5 + 16 (item caster level) + 5 for not meeting the CL requirement (the creator is not level 16).
So assume INT 20 and 3 ranks in Spellcraft and the crafter is a wizard who knows Mage Armor, that's +11 to the Spellcraft DC at level 3. If he really wanted to optimize, he could have the Theoretical Magician trait (+2) and the Skill Focus (Spellcraft) Feat (+3) and now he's +16 on the roll. Now he can make those bracers at level 3 with just a Take-10 roll. No chance of failure. 100% guaranteed or your money back. Speaking of money, the only thing stopping most level 3 wizard crafters is that they don't usually have 32,000gp lying around.
Crafter was an alchemist. So assuming that he could take crafting feats, which he couldn't till AFTER getting the Master Craftsman feat, which you can't qualify for till level 5, the DC would be 16+5(crafting)+5(not level 16)+5(can't cast mage armor).
And that's assuming you can justify Craft: Alchemy allowing you to make wondrous items.
EDIT TO ADD
Near as I can figure it, the GM shouldn't have let the guy playing an alchemist take a crafting feat besides the auto granted brew potion until level 7 minimum. Even then, I would have said no unless the player was investing in a crafting skill which could legitimately make that type of item. Such as leather working for example if you're going to be making wondrous items. Even then I'd limit the player to making things their actual crafting skill could legitimately help in making.
This sounds like nothing to do with the crafting system and everything to do with having 32K GP handy at level 5.
Hell, I could think of much more gamebreaking things to do with 32k GP by level 5 than getting some extra AC.
The point wasn't to call out a problem with the system or to claim that making the bracers is or isn't a good idea.
The previous poster (whom I quoted) had said (incorrectly) that the crafter had to be level 16. I was posting to show that this is not true - he can be any level, even level 3, but it does raise the Spellcraft DC by +5 if he does not meet that level requirement.
I was only trying to correct misinformation in a post.
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Note, there is no "minimum" DAILY crafting time. You could craft 1 hour a day if you want to, or even 1 minute a day if you want to, but of course that's absurd.
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day.So work as few hours or as many hours each day as you want, just don't go over 8 hours on any day.
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
The minimum is 4 hours unless you are adventuring. While adventuring it is 4 hours during the day, but in small increments dispersed during the day.
Crafter was an alchemist. So assuming that he could take crafting feats, which he couldn't till AFTER getting the Master Craftsman feat, which you can't qualify for till level 5, the DC would be 16+5(crafting)+5(not level 16)+5(can't cast mage armor).
Hire a mage to cast the spell at 10 gp/day. 32 days = 320 gp. That is 1% of the 32,000 gp to make +8 bracers. If the party has a caster with the spell, get it free. A wand at 750 gp uses 480 gp worth of charges, if you happen to have one.
/cevah
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Crafter was an alchemist. So assuming that he could take crafting feats, which he couldn't till AFTER getting the Master Craftsman feat, which you can't qualify for till level 5, the DC would be 16+5(crafting)+5(not level 16)+5(can't cast mage armor).Hire a mage to cast the spell at 10 gp/day. 32 days = 320 gp. That is 1% of the 32,000 gp to make +8 bracers. If the party has a caster with the spell, get it free. A wand at 750 gp uses 480 gp worth of charges, if you happen to have one.
/cevah
You don't hire him to cast the spell. you hire him to help you in the enchanting process, staying with you 8 hours a day.
With that in mind it would be cheaper to by 32 armor scroll than paying a wizard for 32 days of work.
What is the fee to hire a 1st level wizard w/mage armor?
[With link, please.]
/cevah
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What is the fee to hire a 1st level wizard w/mage armor?
[With link, please.]/cevah
Nice move.
Whatever the GM feel it is fit.The priced you cited is for a specific kind of service:
Spellcasting: The indicated amount is how much it costs to get a spellcaster to cast a spell for you. This cost assumes that you can go to the spellcaster and have the spell cast at his convenience (generally at least 24 hours later, so that the spellcaster has time to prepare the spell in question). If you want to bring the spellcaster somewhere to cast a spell you need to negotiate with him, and the default answer is no.
The cost given is for any spell that does not require a costly material component. If the spell includes a material component, add the cost of that component to the cost of the spell. If the spell has a focus component (other than a divine focus), add 1/10 the cost of that focus to the cost of the spell.
Furthermore, if a spell has dangerous consequences, the spellcaster will certainly require proof that you can and will pay for dealing with any such consequences (that is, assuming that the spellcaster even agrees to cast such a spell, which isn't certain). In the case of spells that transport the caster and characters over a distance, you will likely have to pay for two castings of the spell, even if you aren't returning with the caster.
If, as some Dev posts has implied (I admit I can't find a rule specifying that), a caster that help you craft something should be present for the whole process, not simply pass by casting a spell as a standard action, that service don't fall under the above rule.
AFAIK there is no specific rule about how much it will cost. But an undefined cost isn't the same thing as a specific cost for a different service.BTW, even if a standard action casting is enough, unless you are enchanting your item in the laboratory of the wizard casting the spell, his service don't cost the base price you cited, as one of the requisite for that cost is "This cost assumes that you can go to the spellcaster". If you work at your laboratory you aren't going to the spellcaster. He is him that is coming to you.
If you are working in the wizard lab you should pay for that. And again we are in the "whatever the GM feel is appropriate" field.
Yeah, and where can my 1st level mage character get a piece of that action! ;)
As soon as the GM has a NPC craft something in a game town and the crafter lack the spell and the can beat the +5 difficulty and he decide to hire you.
If you use spellcraft to make a earning roll it is what is happening. Some NPC has come to you asking for a special ink, or to cast a spell for him, or to help him in some other way. you spend most of the time sitting in your shop, twiddling your thumbs, but ever so often someone come and ask for yoru services.
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Well, that's for generic downtime rules. If an NPC really needs a 1st level mage to help craft an item, no reason why the PC wouldn't get paid full market value for his service, no?
Yes, but someone hiring the PC is totally GM land.
I need you as a helper to craft item XX can be a nice base for an adventure when the crafting spellcaster go missing. Or a way to justify starting with more money (instead of rich parents you have "hired for a job" [fake trait]).The problem is that mostly it increase the disparity between casters and non casters.
Someone hiring a PC with an high handle animals to train wild horses into riding horses will, generally, pay less than someone hiring a PC to help crafting magic items.
What is the fee to hire a 1st level wizard w/mage armor?
[With link, please.]Nice move.
Whatever the GM feel it is fit.
So, you don't know. :-/
The priced you cited is for a specific kind of service:
<stuff about paying a caster to cast a spell>If, as some Dev posts has implied (I admit I can't find a rule specifying that), a caster that help you craft something should be present for the whole process, not simply pass by casting a spell as a standard action, that service don't fall under the above rule.
AFAIK there is no specific rule about how much it will cost. But an undefined cost isn't the same thing as a specific cost for a different service.
I recall that requirement also, but cannot find the RAW.
BTW, even if a standard action casting is enough, unless you are enchanting your item in the laboratory of the wizard casting the spell, his service don't cost the base price you cited, as one of the requisite for that cost is "This cost assumes that you can go to the spellcaster". If you work at your laboratory you aren't going to the spellcaster. He is him that is coming to you.
If you are working in the wizard lab you should pay for that. And again we are in the "whatever the GM feel is appropriate" field.
Remember, you are at least a 5th level caster, and hiring a 1st level one. Lower level casters will usually come to you if it is convenient. Same town to where you are enchanting is likely so. If you are not crafting in town, then less likely (unless druid/ranger type hired).
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Back in 3.X, you could hire classed NPCs for 100 gp / month / level, that is about 3 gp / day / level. I think in PH2 or DMG2, and I know in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook.
Spending 3 gp / day for a 1st level mage with mage armor, and also 10 gp for casting the spell, means 13 gp / day for 32 days. Total 416 gp compared to the 32,000 gp for the Bracers +8.
/cevah