Which arcane protective spells to use?


Advice


Hi!
We are playing RoRL AP and our party consists of Bard, hit-and-run Rogue and blaster Wizard (me). We had a melee cleric, but he bailed out.
We also have two cohorts - ranged ranger and brawler.

And now we have a problem: this AP has tons of strong melee opponents, and underleveled brawler is our toughest melee combatant. So any full attack from our enemies usually brings down anyone caught in it.

We need something to improve our melee survivability. I have blur, but it is clearly not enough. Stoneskin has costly component and actually doesn't help much.

What non-personal protective spells would you advice me to use?


Improved invisibility
Cats grave
Haste


The best way to improve survivability is to kill/disable your enemies immediately.

The ranged ranger should NEVER be getting hit with a full attack and should be putting out pretty decent damage.

Rogues suck in combat, not a lot you can do unless you drop greater invis on them, at which point they are extremely good.

The bard should be helping a lot with inspire courage, considering you have two cohorts and a high dps ranger (oh wait... the Ranger IS a cohort... so you literally have no *actual*, level equivalent party member who can actually put out decent DPS... yeah, you need to summon and spam haste).

Either just spam haste or cast something just to win like hold person. Blaster wizards are kind of bad... how specialized are you at this point? Can you just stop with the blasting and go with either summoning or brutal save or sucks via enchantment?


If you have the time, summoning spells. Get lots of disposable meat shields.


In general, forget anything that tries to reduce the amount of dmg you take, and instead stop the party taking damage by murdering/gimping the thing dealing it.


Consider casting Slow to limit the number of full attacks they can make.

And really with the party composition the way it is, don't get yourselves into positions to take full attacks.

Silver Crusade

The bard could start with Dirge of Doom and switch to Inspire Courage after you cast Slow. Haste should be a given.


I can't express how bad this party is atm. Not your fault, a brutal melee cleric would have balanced it out reasonably. Is your GM reducing CR appropriately to account for the fact you have only 3 party members? Cohorts via leadership don't count (although why your GM is allowing the leadership feat in the first place is beyond me). If not, argue for a DM PC Barb/Cleric/Fighter/Druid or find an extra person to play.


I'm as specialized as you can be. I mostly follow Brewer's Blockbuster Wizard guide.
And I actually banned conjuration school because our DM was kinda pissed at me for being too good at lvl 1 xD Our gaming party is usually not very optimized, so I try not to outshine everyone.

We usually don't have problems with killing things. And we also try to avoid head-to-head combat.

Blaster Wizard is actually not that bad. I drop some damage on enemies and everyone else usually pile up and drop them down. And targets with elemental vulnerabilities (like red dragon from book 4) simply melt due to high knowledge checks and ability to switch elements.
I try not to do only damage. Evocation actually has some semi-decent control and debuffs (like Sheet Lightning, Icy Prison, Wall of X spells).


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Displacement is wonderful. It's not quite as good as Greater Invisibility, but it's a spell level lower and works against enemies with See Invisibility. (Still fails against True Seeing, but it's still good.)


I am his DM, and i hate him. He's blasting everything he sees, usually succesfull. He underestimate he's pawah

Grand Lodge

Mirror Image is sadly self only.
Pyrotechnics could be good in combination with blasting and making sneak attacks easier.


Jifd wrote:
I am his DM, and i hate him. He's blasting everything he sees, usually succesfull. He underestimate he's pawah

Don't hate the player, hate the game. lol Well, what you can do is to give your other players magical items to balance it out. I'm sure if you give the level 1 fighter +5 Fortification heavy Full plate and +5 Impact Ghost Touch Guardian Keen greatsword along with a Headband of aerial agility +6, he will not be outshine by the blasting caster at all.


Jifd wrote:
I am his DM, and i hate him. He's blasting everything he sees, usually succesfull. He underestimate he's pawah

It sounds like you've fallen into one of the oldest DM traps.

One character is stronger than the others, so you try to throw stronger opponents that would challenge that one character, but who then walk all over the weaker characters.

This is usually a bad thing, as it means you are making the majority of the table suffer just to try and stop one character.

The better alternative should be to help get the other players up to his level so that they can all enjoy the same challenges.


Hmmm... I would suggest increasing the number of combats a day if this wasn't an AP. The big weakness of blasters is that they tend to start running short on spells pretty fast if not having a 10 min adventuring day, and I personally find it more interesting to have to manage stretched resources (gives a bump to mundane martials too)... but since it's an AP not sure you can control that.

What level is the party at?

From the player side, what kind of Bard is he? Too late to steer towards archery and kite?


The bard is a full-on caster with nice things like hold monster and domination.
And she's also secretly an evil b**ch. She often full-controls her enemies first and mercilessly murders them while they are helpless. My character and Rogue are honestly scared by her.

Currently party is lvl10.
We usually don't have 10 minutes adventure days. But there are a lot of, let's say' 1-hour adventure days in this AP.


Laureth wrote:

Hmmm... I would suggest increasing the number of combats a day if this wasn't an AP. The big weakness of blasters is that they tend to start running short on spells pretty fast if not having a 10 min adventuring day, and I personally find it more interesting to have to manage stretched resources (gives a bump to mundane martials too)... but since it's an AP not sure you can control that.

What level is the party at?

From the player side, what kind of Bard is he? Too late to steer towards archery and kite?

Their acctual problem is that they doesn't have any healler, exept for the bard with Cure Light Wounds wands so they can't afford to have too many encounters. Plus i, personally, prefer to spend more time on game itself rather than combat encounters.

The party's around 10 level now, but they progress really fast, tho playing on medium exp progression. Dont want to turn it to slow, because it'll kill em. Don't want to lover the CR of important encounters, it will make them not that good as i want to be.

The bard is fully specialized on perform skills (have aroung +30 on lvl 10, just dont ask how), and charm/compulsion spells, so now she actually can do some serious bullsh*t that mess up with my game and sometimes i just don't have enough time to suicide some important all knowing NPC, so i start to bully other players from the name of that captured NPC, they're characters are pretty prideful and feel offended and may even kill somebody even before they've got some piece of information.

Grand Lodge

Let them find a cleric to cast speak with dead, if they kill your informant before getting any information. Just rember to leave a hint on their body/in their belongings.
Side note:
Sounds like the bard needs a "paladin encounter"....


Jifd wrote:
Their acctual problem is that they doesn't have any healler, exept for the bard with Cure Light Wounds wands so they can't afford to have too many encounters.

Cant afford?

At level 10 the cost of Cure Light Wounds wands are trivial, and should be shared by the whole group, not just the one using it. This means that after every combat they can heal up to full HP.

I see no problem with more than 1 encounter per day. Indeed this is an important, but sadly only implied balancing thing. There are many classes, casters foremost, who can burn their power in a quicker way to get a burst of combat strengh for a short time, at the expense of longer-time power. And other classes that are very gopod at longer time power, but cant really burst.

If you have only one fight per day you skewer clas balance and classes like Fighter, Rogue and most other martials become weaksauce and overshined by those that can go nova for 1 fight and then are exhausted and at much lesser power for the rest of the day. Like Magus or Casters that can always cast top-down with the highest spellevels. Normally those classes have to think hard when to use those burst of power.


Guru-Meditation wrote:

Cant afford?

At level 10 the cost of Cure Light Wounds wands are trivial, and should be shared by the whole group, not just the one using it. This means that after every combat they can heal up to full HP.

The problem is that they use all 50 charges after 1 encounter

Guru-Meditation wrote:
I see no problem with more than 1 encounter per day.

They often have more than 1 encounter per day, sometimes even 3-4, but you know those casters, start to whine after they've casted a few spells :S

Guru-Meditation wrote:
You skewer clas balance and classes like Fighter, Rogue and most other martials become weaksauce and overshined by those that can go nova for 1 fight and then are exhausted and at much lesser power for the rest of the day. Like Magus or Casters that can always cast top-down with the highest spellevels. Normally those classes have to think hard when to use those burst of power.

Well we have only 1 kinda-rogue player (he's a slayer, actually, but roguelike one), and he doesn't mind to have fewer encounters in sake of play, not everyone enjoys fully combat games.

I admit that i'm not best DM, but i'm trying to do my best ^ ^


vorpaljesus wrote:
Consider casting Slow to limit the number of full attacks they can make.

From personal experience, you need to be careful when using Slow. If your GM is a jerk, he can take advantage of the ability to make a charge attack even when slowed. Charge plus pounce equals full attack even while slowed, because it's an exception that allows a full attack as part of a (standard action) charge instead of the normal full-round action.

As counterintuitive as the idea is, the rules do support it (Golarion does NOT operate on real-world physics, nor anything approaching them).

PFSRD Slow spell description wrote:
Creatures affected by this spell are staggered and can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions).

Limited to single standard action OR a single move action.

PFSRD Movement during a charge description wrote:
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Exception: can still use charge even when limited to single standard action.

PFSRD Pounce (Ex) universal monster ability description wrote:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

If you can charge (and you can, thanks to the above exception), you can make a full attack as part of that charge.


*Khan* wrote:

Let them find a cleric to cast speak with dead, if they kill your informant before getting any information. Just rember to leave a hint on their body/in their belongings.

Side note:
Sounds like the bard needs a "paladin encounter"....

You know, it's good that they're killing them before thay can speak, course they could know just to much for the moment. That is the point with i actyally happy :)

P.S. Note taken

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

You could explore the cheese that is emergency force sphere for those truly terrible situations.

The players in my game made great use of it in RoTRL.

It does take you out of the action a little bit but very useful.


rkotitan wrote:

You could explore the cheese that is emergency force sphere for those truly terrible situations.

The players in my game made great use of it in RoTRL.

It does take you out of the action a little bit but very useful.

He's actually use this spell sometimes :D, i even were so kind that i cut off some hands of monsters when he cast it, it was tonns of fun


It was resilient sphere, not this one.

EFS is actually pretty darn good spell. Will try it someday. Thanks!


Fedorchik1536 wrote:

Hi!

We are playing RoRL AP and our party consists of Bard, hit-and-run Rogue and blaster Wizard (me). We had a melee cleric, but he bailed out.
We also have two cohorts - ranged ranger and brawler.

And now we have a problem: this AP has tons of strong melee opponents, and underleveled brawler is our toughest melee combatant. So any full attack from our enemies usually brings down anyone caught in it.

We need something to improve our melee survivability. I have blur, but it is clearly not enough. Stoneskin has costly component and actually doesn't help much.

What non-personal protective spells would you advice me to use?

That reminds me of the party in the Rise of the Runelords party game I ran. The composition varied from module to module, but at one time, it consisted of a dwarf bard, a lyrakien bard, a gnome two-weapon rogue, an elf duelist rogue, a half-elf lore master wizard, and an elf battle oracle.

The synergy in that party is that the two rogues would charge out at flatfooted enemies for quick sneak attacks and then fight as the front line for a round. Meanwhile the battle oracle would buff herself, and step out for round two as an unstoppable killing machine. One bard did buffs and the other debuffs. The wizard performed battlefield control.

The oracle and bards did some healing after combat, but really, little was necessary because the enemies died so quickly.

Jifd wrote:

Their acctual problem is that they doesn't have any healler, exept for the bard with Cure Light Wounds wands so they can't afford to have too many encounters. Plus i, personally, prefer to spend more time on game itself rather than combat encounters.

The party's around 10 level now, but they progress really fast, tho playing on medium exp progression. Dont want to turn it to slow, because it'll kill em. Don't want to lover the CR of important encounters, it will make them not that good as i want to be.

The bard is fully specialized on perform skills (have aroung +30 on lvl 10, just dont ask how), and charm/compulsion spells, so now she actually can do some serious bullsh*t that mess up with my game and sometimes i just don't have enough time to suicide some important all knowing NPC, so i start to bully other players from the name of that captured NPC, they're characters are pretty prideful and feel offended and may even kill somebody even before they've got some piece of information.

The true strength of my party was information gathering. The lyrakien was a undetectible scout, the other bard and the duelist rogue had informants in town or even in the enemy camp, and the wizard cast divination spells. They avoided unnecessary encounters and prepared well for the necessary ones. The sixth module, "Spires of Xin-Shalast" typically involves lots of combaat against grueling opponents, but the party infiltrated that city secretly, identified the political factions (not everyone was happy about the return of the BBEG), and started a civil war to occupy the mininons while they went directly for the BBEG. Of course, it took some writing as the GM to allow this, but it was more fun than combat. The party identified the BBEG back in the second module, when I was playing a gnome ranger/monk and my wife was the GM instead of the lyrakien bard.

Back to the original question, how can the wizard aid the rogue? Unless Paizo has changed the Stealth rules again, a rogue can start his turn hiding behind concealment, leave concealment while making a Stealth roll, and make one sneak attack if he rolls Stealth successfully. The wizard would serve best at providing concealment. For example, the wizard or bard could cast Obscuring Mist and the rogue could wear Fogcutting Lenses. More on theme for a blaster wizard, he could cast Resist Energy on the rogue and cast a Wall of Fire between the rogue and his opponent. The rogue could hide behind the fire, and dart through it for his attacks. If the opponent follows the rogue, it takes damage anyway.


About the Rouge i must speak. It's a slayer thet went to the Viled Moon school from the PoW, so it's not actually usuall kind of rouge, he doesnt even need the rest of the party to kite'n'kill almost everybody + he have custom magical beast horse that i've createted (kinda fun and have it's own character, that sometimes frighten and shock players, especially the slayer, coz the horse's half paladin and the slayer's evil), so he's a lone wolf
the problem is that wizard and slayer are really afraid of the bard, coz she easily can controll them wia spells
slayr mad sometimes coz they wont let him be ''that sneaky bastard''
and the wizzard's just noble young gigolo with a cohort servant brawler and really vulnerabile pride :D i'm not even sure that we'll finish the AP coz they could simply kill each other

Grand Lodge

Create a nemesis which they really hate and have to cooperate to take down.
The common enemy works better than "for the common good" for an evil group.
A Geas spell could be a funny start...


It appears that opponents are beating up the party because they cannot work together. For example, the wizard apparently thinks the slayer is a rogue, because the slayer can sneak attack. The wizard did not ask the slayer about the Assassinate advanced talent.

The best spell to aid a slayer is Invisibility. Then the slayer can safely study a target to assassinate it.

Maybe the slayer did not learn Assassinate because he could not rely on the rest of the party and took a more defensive talent. In that case, I foresee a justified TPK in the future.


Laureth wrote:
Hmmm... I would suggest increasing the number of combats a day if this wasn't an AP. ... but since it's an AP not sure you can control that.

Uhh, why can't he control that? He is free to change anything about the AP he wants. The beauty of the APs is that they are great starting material and GMs can be creative as they want with how they run them. It's not like this is PFS or anything.


*Khan* wrote:


The common enemy works better than "for the common good" for an evil group.

But we are the Good Guys! Truly!

We didn't burn that orphanage because we're evil, they provoked us!


Mathmuse wrote:


The best spell to aid a slayer is Invisibility. Then the slayer can safely study a target to assassinate it.

Slayer's already have ring of invisibility

Mathmuse wrote:


Maybe the slayer did not learn Assassinate because he could not rely on the rest of the party and took a more defensive talent. In that case, I foresee a justified TPK in the future.

Oh god i and Fedorchik1536 laughed aloud :D That was a really good one, mate!


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Another tip: Keep moving. You take a lot less damage if your foes have to move up to you and hit you once than if they can move five feet or less and full attack you.

Grand Lodge

Fedorchik1536 wrote:

Hi!

We are playing RoRL AP and our party consists of Bard, hit-and-run Rogue and blaster Wizard (me). We had a melee cleric, but he bailed out.
We also have two cohorts - ranged ranger and brawler.

And now we have a problem: this AP has tons of strong melee opponents, and underleveled brawler is our toughest melee combatant. So any full attack from our enemies usually brings down anyone caught in it.

We need something to improve our melee survivability. I have blur, but it is clearly not enough. Stoneskin has costly component and actually doesn't help much.

What non-personal protective spells would you advice me to use?

You have a Very unbalanced party composition.

Your going to need to Bring some summoning to the table to absorb some of the Blows. Hope your DM is on board with swinging at them...I've seen DMs play smart creatures to just ignore the summons and right for the thing that summoned it.

As far as Non-personal...Marrionett Possession...then give them your Personal buffs like (False Life, Mirror Image, Any Polymorph Buff like Giant Form, Undead anatomy, Form of the dragon, Alter self).

But this AP is a PC killer and HEAVY combat. the Lack of a Front Line PC is going to hurt a LOT. Might even be a cause of a TPK if the DM doesn't pull some punches. Every encounter from book 3+ is a deadly encounter with enemies that just want to kill you and/or Eat you.

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