You can control 4 HD of undead per caster level. Desecrate does not change this.
It doesn't not change how many you can control.
It would however allow you to create an amount of undead equal to what you an control (from animate dead) in one casting instead of needing to cast the spell twice.
In theory at level 10 you could have 20 HD worth of undead from 1 casting of animate dead and control up to 40. With desecrate, you could potentially create a single creature of up to 40 HD with one casting of the spell.
Desecrate strengthens undead and allows you to create more. It doesn't say anywhere that you can control more. Yet from other spells and feats it suggests and implies that it does. I'd appreciate it if someone can give a clear answer on this.
The Desecrate spell in no way implies this, what sources are referencing that DO?
As someone playing a necromancer-cleric... I honestly want to know.
*wishing the Desecrate did more than just HP bonuses permanently*
I am a little confused on your numbers Claxon.
As I understand it:
- at (caster) level 10 you can control 40 HD worth of undead, and
- create 20 HD with one casting of animate dead - 40 HD in desecrate area.
- Without desecrate you could still cast animate dead twice to reach your maximum 40 HD controlled undead, you just can't make a single undead above 20 HD (as you wrote).
but can you 'have 20 HD worth of undead from 1 casting' in addition to controlling up to 40 HD from caster level. Is that how that should be read?
Desecrate strengthens undead and allows you to create more. It doesn't say anywhere that you can control more. Yet from other spells and feats it suggests and implies that it does. I'd appreciate it if someone can give a clear answer on this.The Desecrate spell in no way implies this, what sources are referencing that DO?
As someone playing a necromancer-cleric... I honestly want to know.
*wishing the Desecrate did more than just HP bonuses permanently*
Animate dead says
"you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit."and
"you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level.""
Desecrate says
"Furthermore, anyone who casts animate dead within this area may create as many as double the normal amount of undead (that is, 4 HD per caster level rather than 2 HD per caster level)"
The only feat that seems to allow you to control more is undead Master which says
"When you cast animate dead or use the Command Undead feat, you are considered to be four levels higher when determining the number of Hit Dice you animate. When you cast command undead, your duration is doubled."
I am a little confused on your numbers Claxon.
As I understand it:
- at (caster) level 10 you can control 40 HD worth of undead, and
- create 20 HD with one casting of animate dead - 40 HD in desecrate area.
- Without desecrate you could still cast animate dead twice to reach your maximum 40 HD controlled undead, you just can't make a single undead above 20 HD (as you wrote).but can you 'have 20 HD worth of undead from 1 casting' in addition to controlling up to 40 HD from caster level. Is that how that should be read?
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking but you 3 bullet points are definitely correct.
If your last sentence is asking do you get 20HD worth of undead plus another 40 HD? No absolutely not. If more specifically your asking if casting the spell and having caster level give you different pools of HD, no, absolutely not. The only thing that does that is the Command Undead feat (and I think maybe some necromancer specific archetypes/prestige classes).
I am a little confused on your numbers Claxon.
As I understand it:
- at (caster) level 10 you can control 40 HD worth of undead, and
- create 20 HD with one casting of animate dead - 40 HD in desecrate area.
- Without desecrate you could still cast animate dead twice to reach your maximum 40 HD controlled undead, you just can't make a single undead above 20 HD (as you wrote).but can you 'have 20 HD worth of undead from 1 casting' in addition to controlling up to 40 HD from caster level. Is that how that should be read?
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking but you 3 bullet points are definitely correct.
If your last sentence is asking do you get 20HD worth of undead plus another 40 HD? No absolutely not. If more specifically your asking if casting the spell and having caster level give you different pools of HD, no, absolutely not. The only thing that does that is the Command Undead feat (and I think maybe some necromancer specific archetypes/prestige classes).
Okay, that was my understanding of the rules as well.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The problem with the Undead Master feat lies in a disparity between the description of the spell, the prerequisites (to a minor degree), and the functional benefits. If broken down, you quickly discover Undead Master does NOT increase the amount of undead you can create or control in any way.
Undead Master
This sounds awesome, and misleadingly implies this feat will enable your qualifying character to be in charge of a larger amount of undead. It does not actually do this.
Sounds pretty straight forward. Except Command Undead. There is a problem with the fact there are both a SPELL and a FEAT which share this name. Paizo should have shored this up at some point, but it adds a minor element of confusion. These prerequisites, however, are referring to the SPELL. The feat will not qualify you. This is further confused by the description of the benefits.
Now, when you cast Command Undead (the spell), your duration is doubled. That's pretty straight forward, and cannot be misinterpreted. Easy peasy.
However, when you cast the Animate Dead spell, you are considered to be four levels higher when determining the number of hit dice animated. That is a deception. A level 6 cleric with this feat would be treated as level 10 when CASTING Animate Dead. This would mean the cleric could, in a single casting of Animated Dead, create 40 HD worth of undead (used in parity with Desecrate. It also says when you use the Command Undead feat, you are treated as four levels higher when determining the number of undead you ANIMATE. Correct me if I'm wrong, but neither the feat nor the spell Command Undead allow you to animate anything. That makes the inclusion of the Command Undead feat a null point, regarding this feat!
Nowhere in the benefits of this feat is it said you increase the number of hit dice worth of undead you can actually CONTROL via the Animate Dead spell or the Command Undead feat. So, that level 6 cleric with this feat could animate 40 HD worth of undead via the Animate Dead spell, but once the casting of the spell is over (benefit says "when you cast [/i]Animate Dead[/i]") you may still only control 24 HD worth of undead! No increase in number of hit dice which can be controlled is mentioned. This feat is a trap. Do not take it, unless it is to extend the duration of your Command Undead spell. It is worthless for anything else.
If the function of this feat were to have parity with the flavor text, the first line would read: "You are treated as four levels higher when determining the number of hit dice worth of undead you can animate AND CONTROL with the Animate Dead spell and/or the Command Undead feat, as applicable." This subtle change would allow that level 6 cleric to animate and control up to 40 HD worth of undead with the Animate Dead spell, and it would allow them to control 10 HD worth of undead when employing the Command Undead feat. This would fix the confusion, and actually make this feat worth taking. The last line of the feat ("When you cast command undead, your duration is doubled") does not need to be changed, though it could include something like: "... and you are treated as four levels higher when determining the duration of this spell."
If I were to revise this feat, it would be something like this:
Prerequisites: Spell focus (necromancy) feat or Command Undead feat, the ability to cast the Animate Dead or Command Undead spell.
Benefit: You are treated as four levels higher when determining the number of hit dice worth of undead you can animate and control with the Animate Dead spell and/or the Command Undead feat, as applicable. When you cast the Command Undead spell, you are treated as four levels higher when determining the duration of this spell and your duration is doubled.
Example: A level 6 Cleric could animate and control 40 HD worth of undead with the Animate Dead spell, could control 10 HD worth of undead with the Command Undead feat, and castings of the Command Undead spell would have a duration of 20 days.
Normal: You may only control 4 HD worth of undead per caster level with the Animate Dead spell, and only 1 HD worth of undead with the Control Undead feat, and the Command Undead spell only lasts 1 day per caster level.
I'd love to see an augmented version of the (revised) Undead Master feat, such as Undead Master, Improved and/or Undead Master, Greater.
Prerequisites: Undead Master feat, 10 ranks in the Knowledge (religion) skill, and Skill Focus (religion) feat.
Benefit: You may control 6 HD worth of undead with the Animate Dead per effective caster level. You can control 2 HD worth of undead per applicable level when using the Command Undead feat. Undead under your control gain +2 channel resistance, and those you create via Animate Dead and Create Undead possess maximum hit points.
Normal: You may control 4 HD worth of undead with the Animate Dead spell, and 1 HD worth of undead per applicable level with the Command Undead feat.
Prerequisites: Undead Master, Improved feat or the Spirit Vessels oracle revelation, Spell Focus, Greater (necromancy), 16 ranks in the Knowledge (religion) skill, and the ability to cast the Create Undead spell.
Benefit: Increase the number of HD worth of undead you may control with the Animate Dead spell by +2 per effective caster level, and the number of HD worth of undead you may control with the Command Undead feat by +1 per applicable level. All bonuses from the Desecrate spell granted to undead you create are double, except the channel negative energy resistance bonuses, and increase the number of undead which can be animated by half (this cannot be stacked with the Empowered Spell feat). Undead you create with spells like Create Undead are automatically under your control, as if affected by the Command Undead feat, with no initial save to resist. All undead you create gain an additional +2 channel resistance.
Those may need some work, but they seem like a good start.
The problem with the Undead Master feat lies in a disparity between the description of the spell, the prerequisites (to a minor degree), and the functional benefits. If broken down, you quickly discover Undead Master does NOT increase the amount of undead you can create or control in any way.
Undead Master
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
You sir are creeping doubt in my mind, let me try a crack at it:
Undead Master says
"When you cast animate dead or use the Command Undead feat, you are considered to be four levels higher when determining the number of Hit Dice you animate."
Animate dead says:
"you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit."
So a lv 6 Cleric, is considered a lv10 cleric for the purpusoes of casting this spell. Thus he can Automatically create 40HD of undead.
Then you have "The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level."
So A lv6 cleric created 40HD undead, but now only controls 24 of them.
"If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released. "
So now we have 24HD undead indefintely under your control, and 16 of them angry and out and about.
"Undead you control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward this limit."
So Now you have to follow up Animate dead with Command undead. Command undead says:
" You can control any number of undead, so long as their total Hit Dice do not exceed your cleric level."
So 6.
6 Undead controlled. for 12 minutes? Unless the double duration only is for the Spell, and not the channel ability. I thought I read somewhere that the Command undead(the channel ability) was a definite control with no duration.
So now we have 24HD undead under your control indefintely, 6 controlled for 12 minutes, and 10 Undead with no alligiance.
This seems like a very odd... Feat....
Many feats in the game are broken like this. Command Undead feat states it acts like the Control Undead spell (which has a 1 min/level duration), but then goes on to state "Intelligent undead receive a new saving throw each day to resist your command" (emphasis mine). This suggests they INTENDED for the feat to function as the spell of the same name (Command Undead, not Control Undead), lasting 1 day/level.
I would talk with your GM for their interpretation on anything with questionable RAW vs. RAI. I believe the intended function of Undead Master was to allow the Animate Dead spell to function, in all aspects, at Caster Level +4. Otherwise, it's basically a worthless feat. Sure, you can animate more HD worth of undead in a single casting, but you wouldn't be able to control more. Silly RAW! Additionally, I believe it was intended for the Command Undead feat to function at Effective Manifestation Level +4, allowing more HD worth of undead to be commanded with the feat, as well as all other things 4 more levels would entail.
Similarly, there are many traits which allow spells to manifest at +1 Caster Level, which is great for instantaneous spells, but not so great for spells with level dependent side factors (again, such as Animate Dead). I believe it is intended for those traits to allow the caster to function at an increased caster level for ALL PURPOSES, in regards to the spells they affect.
If your GM permits this interpretation, it is possible to EASILY get effective +7 Caster Level on your Animate Dead spell. +4 from Undead Master, +2 from any combination of the Outlander, Inspired by Greatness, Gifted Adept, and/or Signature Spell traits (or any other applicable traits which grant an increase to the caster level of applicable spell(s)), and +1 from the Orange Prism Ioun Stone. Some would argue you can't stack the caster level bonuses from two traits, but those bonuses are not specifically called out as "trait" bonuses (trait bonuses do not stack), and while they would both come from traits, they would be coming from two different traits, just as you couldn't stack two Orange Prism Ioun Stones (identical source), but you could stack the Ioun Stone's bonus with a different magic item. My argument here is that if two different magic items (not identical) can stack, so can two different traits (not identical) which do not specify the bonus as a trait bonus. Precluding that, or if your GM rules against stacking CL bonuses from traits, you can still pull off +6 Caster Levels to a specific spell, with very little research. If your caster were an Arcanist, you could get an additional +2 ECL from judicious use of the Potent Magic exploit.
This is, of course, assuming your GM will allow the limit of your controlled undead via Animate Dead to be limited by your maximum Effective Caster Level (ECL) at the time of casting, and not your ECL after the casting has been completed. If you can pull off +6 to +9 ECL at the time of casting, and your GM rules that is the determining factor for number of undead you can control via Animate Dead, then (and only then) Undead Master become a worthwhile feat for the budding necromancer.
Note: Going the Arcanist route for a necromancer will delay your access to the coveted Animate Dead spell, but would give you the maximum ECL for purposes of that spell, unless there is something I'm missing.
Desecrate actually doesn't do anything to increase the maximum number of undead at your disposal, it simply increases the number of undead you can create in a single casting (along with some side benefits). I never interpreted Desecrate as doing anything else.
Undead Master, on the other hand, is a poorly edited feat. The flavor text mentions controlling armies of undead. The benefits suggest you could control more undead via Animate Dead, but don't actually support maintaining control of said undead, post-casting. It also suggests you can control more undead via the Control Undead feat, but the benefits granted have no function with that (also poorly edited) feat. The only tangible benefit is that to the Control Undead spell. Since it has double duration, you could theoretically control more undead that way, as you would have to recast it less often to maintain control over affected undead. This would effectively double the number of undead which could potentially be controlled by that spell.
Now, if you choose to use RAI over RAW, in that case Animate Dead would add 16 HD worth of undead you could animate and control (24 if you're a Juju Oracle), Command Undead feat would allow for another 4 HD worth at double duration (if using RAI for the Command Undead feat, treating it as the Command Undead spell, not Control Undead), and the last benefit remains the same.
By RAW, the feat is all but worthless. By RAI, it has a lot of potential.
Also less we forget as well, that say you had a suicidal necromancer who just wanted to pump out as many skeletons as he could to over run a town....
Annimate dead is a touch spell.
if you wanted to create 80+ undead... you would have to physically go around and touch 80 different corpses during their turn...
This makes a Cleric wanting an army almost impossible then. I had a friend who used both Command Undead and Raise Undead to very useful effect. However we misread and interpreted Desecrate. This sucks since my plan was take an Occultist with the Necromancy school and make him a cleric and take Desecrate and Undead Master and have an actual army of undead. Now after reading everything I'm better off staying as an Occultist and pumping points into the Necromancy school.
Ok people.... if you have somehow missed my memo:
Ignore Command Undead (the Feat).
Use Command Undead (the spell).
Control all the undead for days for per caster level. Double the time with a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend! Mindless undead get controlled with no save! Still works on Intelligent Undead!
Command Undead (the spell) makes Command Undead (the feat) and most abilities that give you things like additional HD of Animated Dead completely irrelevant. Don't even bother with them.
As to a class for controlling an army of undead:
Gravewalker Witch is my personal pick.
Main reasons:
1. Can control undead from level 1. Bonewhistle can be used repeatedly on the same targets. Bonewhistle also solves a Witch weakness by giving you a repeated SoD v. Undead.
2. Gravewalker gives you the three most important spells for animating minions at their lowest level - Blood Money at level 1, Command Undead as a level 2 spell and Animate Dead as a level 3 spell. Admittedly you will have to wait til 6 to start animating.
3. The other important Necromancy spell Desecrate can be replicated by a Voidstick for only 2,500 GP.
4. You can eventually get to use magic jar on your undead all day long.
So ya, Gravewalker Witch.
For the record:
At the lowest possible comparison point (level 3, which is when things are most in the feat's favor, though it's still a hard sell.)
Command Undead (the spell)
+ No Hit Dice cap
+ No save for unintelligent undead.
+ The earliest you get it controls an undead for 3/days with one cast.
- Requires one of your highest spells at level 3.
- Requires CHA check to convince Intelligent undead to follow orders.
Command Undead (the feat)
+ Can be used 3+CHA times per day (Necromancer Wizards win very hard here at 3+INT uses per day).
+ Any number of undead in range (up to 3 HD).
- Capped at 3 HD regardless of uses remaining.
- Grants even unintelligent undead a Will Save.
- Intelligent Undead get a new will save each morning.
So... just use Command Undead (the spell).
Talk about necro... ;)