I have read rules about vehicles, but now I have one question:
If the ship is 8×3 squares and is made of wood, it has 360 HP, but 15 HP per square. If I will hit it with fireball in the center (damage 10d6+10), does it deal separate damage to all squares, (total destroy), or just 10d6+10-5 to 360?
Thanks!
The same damage is applied to every square, but hardness is likely to also come into play.
So, it will be 10d6+10 to every square, that has hardness 5 and 15 HP (auto destroy). But ship has some saving throws...
What are the saving throws of the ship? Can you tell more about it, please?
So, it will be 10d6+10 to every square, that has hardness 5 and 15 HP (auto destroy). But ship has some saving throws...
What are the saving throws of the ship? Can you tell more about it, please?
Edit: Hmmmm..never played a sea battle in PF. Guess ships do get saving throws according to the Fast-play Ship Combat in the Game Mastery Guide. Never used it so no clue how all that works.
Read the rules in Skull and Shackles. I can't remember them exactly, but I recall they definitely changed the rules from Ultimate Combat (for the better). Mostly with regard to hp (I think) and that things don't deal damage per square or anything like that.
The ship is an unattended object and does not receive a saving throw.So, it will be 10d6+10 to every square, that has hardness 5 and 15 HP (auto destroy). But ship has some saving throws...
What are the saving throws of the ship? Can you tell more about it, please?
This is definitely wrong according to Skull and Shackles, I do remember that. A boat which is being piloted definitely gets saves, I believe they even use the pilot's sailing check to do so.
Read the rules in Skull and Shackles. I can't remember them exactly, but I recall they definitely changed the rules from Ultimate Combat (for the better). Mostly with regard to hp (I think) and that things don't deal damage per square or anything like that.
This is definitely wrong according to Skull and Shackles, I do remember that. A boat which is being piloted definitely gets saves, I believe they even use the pilot's sailing check to do so.The ship is an unattended object and does not receive a saving throw.So, it will be 10d6+10 to every square, that has hardness 5 and 15 HP (auto destroy). But ship has some saving throws...
What are the saving throws of the ship? Can you tell more about it, please?
Yep, I'm totally wrong. That makes two sources saying ships get saves. I'd kind of like someone who has used those rules to come and explain how it works.
So, no damage per square? But how can I destroy the ship?
360 hp - it is the small ship. What about larger versions?
The fire on ship? 2d6 of damage per round? It can burn for all time of the battle and do not get broken condition...
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So, no damage per square? But how can I destroy the ship?
360 hp - it is the small ship. What about larger versions?
The fire on ship? 2d6 of damage per round? It can burn for all time of the battle and do not get broken condition...
You don't destroy the ship. That is the main take away from skull and shackles when I played it. The ships hp is so massive compared to the amount of damage you can typically do, it's infinitely faster to simply ram their boat with your boat and start a normal combat to get out of ship to ship combat.
And I believe it's intentional since otherwise sinking a ship could be too easy and would actually make the whole campaign kind of pointless and would cause you to miss lots of things.
So, no damage per square? But how can I destroy the ship?
360 hp - it is the small ship. What about larger versions?
The fire on ship? 2d6 of damage per round? It can burn for all time of the battle and do not get broken condition...
Ok, from a quick reading of the rules from the Game Mastery Guide this is how it appears to work.
Each square of a ship is 30', not 5' like in creature combat. A ship seems to be handled like a large creature. A large creature that occupies 4 squares only saves and takes damage once from a fireball regardless of how many many of the squares it occupies are within the fireballs AoE. So a ship hit by a fireball only saves and takes damage once and applies it's hardness once. The saving throw = d20 + the captains Profession (Sailor) modifier + the ships base save mod. Since the ship is being treated sort of as a part creature and part attended object it apparently does not begin burning.
The ship cannot gain the broken condition but at 0 hp it gains the "sinking" condition and sinks completely in 10 rounds. If it takes further damage it reduces the amount of time to sink completely by 1 round/25 points of damage.
That is what I get from the Game Mastery Guide. I don't have access to Skull and Shackles to determine what if anything it may do differently.
The ship combat rules from Skull and Shackles are here
The situation:
We run Kingdom Building, and have a fort on a coast. Pirates are attacking us with 7 ships and army on board. Also they have some cannons.
My point is that my 10th level sorcerer can destroy ships or make them useless for example, and they will not reduce our fort defense by cannons, but the army will get to the shore for battle.
But if you say, that ships are so invulnerable, why our fort is so vulnerable? :) In terms of mass combat, offcourse.
We just can not decide, what rules we want to apply here.
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Does your Fort crumble after being hit with 1 Fireball?
The ship combat rules from Skull and Shackles are here
Stupid DoD firewall won't let me access that from work.
The situation:
We run Kingdom Building, and have a fort on a coast. Pirates are attacking us with 7 ships and armipy on board. Also they have some cannons.
My point is that my 10th level sorcerer can destroy ships or make them useless for example, and they will not reduce our fort defense by cannons, but the army will get to the shore for battle.But if you say, that ships are so invulnerable, why our fort is so vurnable? :) In terms of mass combat, ofcourse.
We just can not decide, what rules we want to apply here.
Since from what Claxon says Skull and Shackles is intended to be a completely ship board campaign and they don't want your ship getting sunk it doesn't sound like the rules for that should be used in your situation. The rules I posted above from the GMG should work well for you.
I have read rules about vehicles, but now I have one question:
If the ship is 8×3 squares and is made of wood, it has 360 HP, but 15 HP per square. If I will hit it with fireball in the center (damage 10d6+10), does it deal separate damage to all squares, (total destroy), or just 10d6+10-5 to 360?
Thanks!
Fireball is 1d6 per level, so 10d6...
(sorry, d10 was a typo)
Fireball is 1d6 per level, so 10d10...I have read rules about vehicles, but now I have one question:
If the ship is 8×3 squares and is made of wood, it has 360 HP, but 15 HP per square. If I will hit it with fireball in the center (damage 10d6+10), does it deal separate damage to all squares, (total destroy), or just 10d6+10-5 to 360?
Thanks!
Where are you getting 10d10? 1d6 per level means one six sided die per level which at level 10 would be ten six sided dice or 10d6.
Edit: Also I'm not sure where the OP is getting the additional +10 from either. 10th level fireball should just be flat 10d6.
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Fireball is 1d6 per level, so 10d10...I have read rules about vehicles, but now I have one question:
If the ship is 8×3 squares and is made of wood, it has 360 HP, but 15 HP per square. If I will hit it with fireball in the center (damage 10d6+10), does it deal separate damage to all squares, (total destroy), or just 10d6+10-5 to 360?
Thanks!
Where are you getting 10d10? 1d6 per level means one six sided die per level which at level 10 would be ten six sided dice or 10d6.
Edit: Also I'm not sure where the OP is getting the additional +10 from either. 10th level fireball should just be flat 10d6.
They mentioned sorcerer, perhaps Orc or Draconic bloodline?
They mentioned sorcerer, perhaps Orc or Draconic bloodline?
Ah, right. That is possible.
You say your sorcerer can destroy a ship, but can it really?
What makes you think you can? Because you have fireball? Even the rules from the game masters guide don't really improve your chance of destroying the ship.
The main thing is you don't deal damage per square, so it would take you several rounds of combat to damage it enough to start sinking, or several people damaging the boat a single time.
I don't understand what the problem is though. You're saying something about pirates attacking and reducing your defense according to Kingdom Building rules, which I am not familiar with. I'm not sure I understand how it works. If the rules if your defensive structure is being attacked and it will attempt to defend itself or take penalties I think you probably just use whatever attack vs defense roll would happen normally, with whatever bonuses apply for the PCs being present (if such a thing exists). Otherwise, you have to use the other rules for boats which don't let you "destroy" boats very easily.
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Does anyone take into account the energy attacks get halved before applying damage to hardness?
Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object’s hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion.
Or am I missing something?
Despite my earlier post the ship is one object, so as an object it should have hardness and a hit point total. Fireball is not going to work to destroy a ship without a generous GM and a lot of time in most cases.
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Why should a ship be easy to destroy?
Pirates and whatnot fired cannons at ships for hours before destroying them. Dozens of cannonball hits and those things were still afloat.
Greek fire was fun for killing oarsmen on deck and burning sails, but a ship could burn down to the waterline and still float. I don't imagine a fireball is really more destructive than a catapult filled with Greek fire.
Sinking a ship is MUCH faster than destroying it with weapons - all you need to do is put a big hole in the hull below the waterline and then give it a while, usually about 15 minutes to an hour, depending on the size of the hole and the size of the ship (counting basic pirates of the Caribbean type ships here, though by then many warships had watertight compartments in the hull requiring several holes to sink them, not just one). To this end, many warships (not pirates though) had long rams (basically a huge built-in spear) below the waterline at the bow of the ship, put there for ramming enemies to sink them.
All of that took time. Nothing in history put a ship down fast until modern warfare with torpedoes and such. Even modern airstrikes with bombs, and modern ship-to-ship cannon fire as recent as WWII often didn't sink ships - only 8 ships were actually sunk at Pearl Harbor over a two hour period and most of those were sunk by torpedoes (many more were damaged beyond operational capacity without being actually sunk).
It's worth noting that many more ships at Pearl Harbor, even those hit by torpedoes, might have sunk but were able to beach themselves because actually sinking takes a long time and they were (obviously) close enough to shore to run aground before sinking.
As for me, I'm perfectly fine with rules that make it difficult to quickly destroy ships from above the water. That's how it should be.
You want your 10th level sorcerer to sink ships, have him summon some aquatic monsters like large water elementals, or maybe water mephits with drills and saw to attack them from below.
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If you're a 10th level sorcerer. There's a LOT of better options than a fireball on the ship:
* A well-placed Cloudkill will give you a nicely depopulated ship.
* Summon a few fire elementals right on their deck.
* Teleport over with a contingent of soldiers then fly away while the soldiers kill them all.
* Dominate the captain and order him to retreat and save his ship from obvious destruction.
* Use an Enlarged fireball and just kill off all of the crew.
* Magic Jar one of the pirate captains and order that ship's crew to attack another pirate ship.
* Use Mirage Arcana to make the fort appear to fade into nothingness and then attack the pirates when they disembark to attack.
* Stick a Wall of Blindness in front of the lead ship and blind the entire crew.
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That said, targeting the rigging with your fireball would cripple the ship. Maybe not destroy it, but cripple aye. And I personally would have the crew make a saving throw against fear effect for the fireball. Fire to a sailor is a very scary thing when you're on a WOODEN ship.
For the Pearl Harbor example, keep in mind that modern ships have measures implemented to help keep afloat when the hull is breached. A fantasy pirate ship is unlikely to have sealed bulkheads and water tight pressure seals.
That said, targeting the rigging with your fireball would cripple the ship. Maybe not destroy it, but cripple aye. And I personally would have the crew make a saving throw against fear effect for the fireball. Fire to a sailor is a very scary thing when you're on a WOODEN ship.
It's unlikely that a single fireball would do enough damage to cripple the ship - the sails of a galley, for instance, have 320 hit points. As far as the "saving throw against fear effect" thing goes, there's no explicit rule to support that. This is the rules forum and house rules have their own, separate spot.
You would do better targeting the crew or the sails to cripple the ship.
In one of the Pathfinder Tales novels a wizard uses Disintegrate to blow a hole in a pursuing ship, causing it to begin sinking immediately.
For the Pearl Harbor example, keep in mind that modern ships have measures implemented to help keep afloat when the hull is breached. A fantasy pirate ship is unlikely to have sealed bulkheads and water tight pressure seals.
Yep, I did mention that. But it's also a very safe bet that the bombs and torpedoes were also more technologically advanced that Greek fire and/or simple Fireball blasts.
The point was that sinking those ships required attacks below the waterline (torpedoes), not above the waterline (bombs and fireballs), and even then, it's a fairly slow process unless you create a huge hole in a small ship - not an easy thing to do without modern technology (or magic more impressive than fireball - someone mentioned Disintegrate, out of reach for a level 10 sorcerer, but much more effective than Fireball).
Em, I'm not saying, that fireball is the best for destroying a ship.
I'm just asking about it because it's damage is greater, than most siege engines at all, a d it's energy is FIRE vs WOOD.
Yes, I know, that the ship is a tough thing, but "this is magic": damage like from cannon, but with radius of 20ft. And it defenitly will kill some crew, destroy sails and start the fire + will deal some damage to the ship's body. I'm even not talking about black powder on board.
I'm just saying, that ship itself is not only the wooden body. And if you kill the crew - the ship is also dead. And if there is a fire on ship, it's not a 2d6 per round, it must be much destructive according to 360 hp of ship.
Thanks for help.
We will just use mass combat rules for spellcasting bonus -_-
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Think of it this way, your average fireball at level 10 does 10d6, for an average of 35 damage.
Virtually any martial character can deal more than 35 damage to a single target. The difference is they don't deal fire damage.
Don't let "but this is magic" be your reason. That's a bad reason, magic isn't a get out of jail free card. Well, eventually it is but your still not high enough level for those spells yet.
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Em, I'm not saying, that fireball is the best for destroying a ship.
I'm just asking about it because it's damage is greater, than most siege engines at all, a d it's energy is FIRE vs WOOD.
Yes, I know, that the ship is a tough thing, but "this is magic": damage like from cannon, but with radius of 20ft. And it defenitly will kill some crew, destroy sails and start the fire + will deal some damage to the ship's body. I'm even not talking about black powder on board.I'm just saying, that ship itself is not only the wooden body. And if you kill the crew - the ship is also dead. And if there is a fire on ship, it's not a 2d6 per round, it must be much destructive according to 360 hp of ship.
Thanks for help.
We will just use mass combat rules for spellcasting bonus -_-
First, Fireball is NOT like a cannon. Most of the damage from a cannon ball is physical damage from shrapnel. Fireball is just a brief explosion of energy.
Yes, in the real world a Fireball would set the ship on fire but in the real world a Fireball would set your clothing on fire too but you don't seem to be arguing for characters to be set on fire. In the real world a person hit by a fireball would be covered in 3rd degree burns and would find it difficult to even move much less continue fighting but I expect you don't want that to be emulated in the game.
The rules for ship combat seem to be fine as written. If you were playing characters on a ship trying to bombard the fort I imagine you would be complaining the other way.
Damn, this thread not only makes me want to play a pirate campaign but now I am going to have to binge watch Black Sails again.
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Em, I'm not saying, that fireball is the best for destroying a ship.
I'm just asking about it because it's damage is greater, than most siege engines at all, a d it's energy is FIRE vs WOOD.
Yes, I know, that the ship is a tough thing, but "this is magic": damage like from cannon, but with radius of 20ft. And it defenitly will kill some crew, destroy sails and start the fire + will deal some damage to the ship's body. I'm even not talking about black powder on board.I'm just saying, that ship itself is not only the wooden body. And if you kill the crew - the ship is also dead. And if there is a fire on ship, it's not a 2d6 per round, it must be much destructive according to 360 hp of ship.
Thanks for help.
We will just use mass combat rules for spellcasting bonus -_-
First, Fireball is NOT like a cannon. Most of the damage from a cannon ball is physical damage from shrapnel. Fireball is just a brief explosion of energy.
Yes, in the real world a Fireball would set the ship on fire but in the real world a Fireball would set your clothing on fire too but you don't seem to be arguing for characters to be set on fire. In the real world a person hit by a fireball would be covered in 3rd degree burns and would find it difficult to even move much less continue fighting but I expect you don't want that to be emulated in the game.
In the real world, a brief conflagration of unconstrained fire like a fireball might not be enough to even light the rope or clothing on fire. Rope and cloth would take a somewhat sustained infusion of thermal energy to ignite, even if perfectly dry, which is not likely in the damp environment on a body of water.
Get a barrel of oil and place a lit lamp on top of it.
Cast shrink object on it as one piece.
Cast fly.
Unshrink the barrel above an unfriendly ship.
That's one ship to busy to attack your fort.
Don't forget that ships are made of solid heavy wood that is almost certainly damp. Fireball may scorch them but it isn't a given that it sets them on fire.
I rule that the fireball does half damage and then remove the hardness five for spells like fireball. As per the normal rules for damaging objects.
The rigging on the other hand is a much easier sell. With hardness 2.
Can I suggest the Fire as She Bears rules (released to be used with for Razor Coast). They are really good at creating master and commander style naval encounters. Our group is 2 books into Skull and Shackles and the party is already planning their new ship.
Also Black Sails back for season 3 - loving it!!!