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I'm considering a Dirty Trick using character but am a little leery of possible table variation in PFS.
As a player, I've never used DT but I've done lots of tripping, bullrushing and grappling (which included explaining the grappling rules on a regular basis since most folks aren't familiar with those).
As a GM I've only had two players ever use DT on a regular basis and I only thing I required was that they explained how they were enacting the DT (i.e. if they said "I blind it with DT" and I would simply ask "how are you blinding it with DT?" and 99% of the time accepted the explanation unless it was undoable against the creature)
For players who use DT, what are your experiences using DT in PFS? Any tips on minimizing table variation?
For GMs, any thoughts on how you adjudicate DT?
I have a DT-using investigator, and most of the time it works fine. If it's a very literal minded GM, I just describe it as an attack targeting a body part not to cause damage, but incapacitation. There are also the old standbys: sand in the face, stomping on feet, cloak pulled up and over the head. If my GM is open to the more cinematic side of it, there are all sorts of fun things to do that generally aren't within the scope of the game, but are just read as applications of DT.
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Having recently started playing a Dirty Trick character, I've only ran into one snag (albeit only with two games). The GM wasn't very familiar with Dirty Trick and asked me how it works. I told him, well, basically I just make something up and make CMB check and then I can give him one of a few specific conditions that he can remove with a move action (because I wasn't high enough to make it cost a standard yet). He accepted that and we moved on.
I like punching/clawing them in the face to blind them, throwing sand in their eyes, and kicking in them in the shin to hobble (entangle) them.
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It's not exactly a Dirty Trick, but as a street performer I do have:
Madcap Prank (Su): ...can use performance to discomfit a target within 30 feet, causing its clothing to become tangled, its headgear to fall down over its eyes, or even causing it to slip and fall or otherwise be made to appear a fool. The target must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) each round that it hears or sees the performance, or it takes one of the following random effects each round: 1—blinded, 2—dazzled, 3—deafened, 4—entangled, 5—fall prone, 6—nauseated. Each effect lasts 1 round. This performance replaces inspire greatness.
I actually do it by "flashing" my skirt like a Can-can dancer does... (wink). Worked even better when I had a continual flame cast on my skirt lining. Move action to "flash" at a 30' range, reflex DC 22 I think, roll a d6 for effects. "Blinded" get's all kinds of comments! LOL!
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It's not exactly a Dirty Trick, but as a street performer I do have:
Madcap Prank (Su): ...can use performance to discomfit a target within 30 feet, causing its clothing to become tangled, its headgear to fall down over its eyes, or even causing it to slip and fall or otherwise be made to appear a fool. The target must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) each round that it hears or sees the performance, or it takes one of the following random effects each round: 1—blinded, 2—dazzled, 3—deafened, 4—entangled, 5—fall prone, 6—nauseated. Each effect lasts 1 round. This performance replaces inspire greatness.
I actually do it by "flashing" my skirt like a Can-can dancer does... (wink). Worked even better when I had a continual flame cast on my skirt lining. Move action to "flash" at a 30' range, reflex DC 22 I think, roll a d6 for effects. "Blinded" get's all kinds of comments! LOL!
I would think nauseated would not be very flattering in that situation...
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I would think nauseated would not be very flattering in that situation...It's not exactly a Dirty Trick, but as a street performer I do have:
Madcap Prank (Su): ...can use performance to discomfit a target within 30 feet, causing its clothing to become tangled, its headgear to fall down over its eyes, or even causing it to slip and fall or otherwise be made to appear a fool. The target must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard's Cha modifier) each round that it hears or sees the performance, or it takes one of the following random effects each round: 1—blinded, 2—dazzled, 3—deafened, 4—entangled, 5—fall prone, 6—nauseated. Each effect lasts 1 round. This performance replaces inspire greatness.
I actually do it by "flashing" my skirt like a Can-can dancer does... (wink). Worked even better when I had a continual flame cast on my skirt lining. Move action to "flash" at a 30' range, reflex DC 22 I think, roll a d6 for effects. "Blinded" get's all kinds of comments! LOL!
no accounting for taste! LOL! Then again, nauseated can result from "motion sick" - and I prefer to think they are just overcome with the "wild ride"!
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I just ran a WWE style Knockout Bout encounter with a pro-wrestler Brawler bad guy that specialized in Dirty Trick and Grapple.
It was a riot.
If you watch a few of those matches, you will come up with tons of inspiration for dirty tricks.
Eye poke, fish hook, stink face, bell clap, groin kick, hair pull, etc.
Useful link: Pro wrestling attacks
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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As a GM I've only had two players ever use DT on a regular basis and I only thing I required was that they explained how they were enacting the DT (i.e. if they said "I blind it with DT" and I would simply ask "how are you blinding it with DT?" and 99% of the time accepted the explanation unless it was undoable against the creature
IMO this is just like requiring a player to describe how their character uses Disable Device to disable a trap. It shouldn't be done.
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Or is it?
"All's fair in love and war. And honey, this ain't love."
Even the most honorable of warrior is willing to toss sand in the eyes of his foe. Maybe not often, but he'll do it. And if you're trying to subdue someone who's not willing to be subdued, dirty tricks can be an effective non-lethal way to do so.
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Except that Dirty Trick explicitly calls out the GM to arbitrate what can and cannot be done with it. Disable Device doesn't.As a GM I've only had two players ever use DT on a regular basis and I only thing I required was that they explained how they were enacting the DT (i.e. if they said "I blind it with DT" and I would simply ask "how are you blinding it with DT?" and 99% of the time accepted the explanation unless it was undoable against the creatureIMO this is just like requiring a player to describe how their character uses Disable Device to disable a trap. It shouldn't be done.
The rules basically make it more-or-less a cooperative effort between the GM and the player as to what the Dirty Trick can do against a particular opponent.
Probably easiest to use in a gaming group that tends toward more cinematic descriptions of combat (I take a fairly good swipe (I hit AC 19) on the goblin, bringing my sword down on his shoulder (doing 7 points of damage) making him fall down, unconscious) than in the more basic roll-and-tell (I hit AC 19 for 7 points of damage, is it down yet?) game group.
"I am going to use Dirty Trick to use a dagger slash to my target's forehead, if a 19 beats his CMD, and he now has blood gushing from the minor head wound, blinding him for a round."
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I just ran a WWE style Knockout Bout encounter with a pro-wrestler Brawler bad guy that specialized in Dirty Trick and Grapple.
It was a riot.If you watch a few of those matches, you will come up with tons of inspiration for dirty tricks.
Eye poke, fish hook, stink face, bell clap, groin kick, hair pull, etc.
Useful link: Pro wrestling attacks
I don't need an IWC smark showboating and putting himself over in my thread, MAGGLE!
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I don't need an IWC smark showboating and putting himself over in my thread, MAGGLE!I just ran a WWE style Knockout Bout encounter with a pro-wrestler Brawler bad guy that specialized in Dirty Trick and Grapple.
It was a riot.If you watch a few of those matches, you will come up with tons of inspiration for dirty tricks.
Eye poke, fish hook, stink face, bell clap, groin kick, hair pull, etc.
Useful link: Pro wrestling attacks
I had to look up what an IWC smark was. Nicely done.
When I'm GM, the more hilarious or awesome the player's description of DT is, the more likely I am to let them use it. The DT rules are pretty clear; any sort of situational attack works and the GM is the arbiter. The PC needs to describe what they're doing before it gets done.
Haven't seen it in PFS yet, but it's showed up a couple times in the AP I'm running.
Had a player take a swig of rum and then spit it in the bad guy's face. Blind. Awesome.
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Or is it?
"All's fair in love and war. And honey, this ain't love."
Even the most honorable of warrior is willing to toss sand in the eyes of his foe. Maybe not often, but he'll do it. And if you're trying to subdue someone who's not willing to be subdued, dirty tricks can be an effective non-lethal way to do so.
That is a line from every chaotic player ever. "Anything goes" is not lawful behavior.
Mind you, your moral code could have clauses where such behavior was allowed against certain types of opponents or under certain circumstances, but you'd need to be consistent. You couldn't just decide to use dirty tricks every time doing it the "right way" didn't work.
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Of course not. The few times I've used dirty tricks like throwing sand in the eyes of the enemy when playing a paladin, it was always a "Back against the wall" situation where we were being overwhelmed and nothing else was working. He'd feel guilty for doing it, but would realize that sometimes fighting fair just gets yourself and everyone you're trying to protect killed. And then he'd go pray to his god(or goddess) for forgiveness.
My chaotic good sorcerer though had no problems with doing stuff like casting light on the nose guard of an enemy's helmet.