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So you don't need to role play it as a variable, just as a routine?
In particular, I'm looking at some of the evil deities and thinking that role playing them could cause pretty major derailments to a campaign.
For example, "While moving through a crowd of people (at least six individuals), whisper a prayer to Norgorber so quietly that no one hears you. If you suspect a member of the crowd heard you, you must follow that individual and prick her with a poisoned needle or other sharp implement. If you can’t locate a suitable crowd, dig a hole at least 6 inches deep in the ground, whisper your prayers into the hole, and bury the sound. At the end of your obedience, dip a needle in poison and leave it on a road, jutting from a windowsill, or anywhere else a passerby might inadvertently prick herself. "
So I wake up, wander through town and "prick" someone with a poisoned sharp object. And in PFS, I can't acquire poison except with certain classes....
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Or do I treat it as a routine, like preparing spells, and just inform the GM that "I perform my deific obedience..."
It's really going to depend on the deity. A lot of the good deities and their devotions can be hand-waved away pretty well. Others, like the Norgorber devotion you mentioned, aren't in that category. Thankfully, a lot of these will probably land you some alignment issues, naturally lending them to a "don't take" category. Unfortunately, this adds another layer of complication to that matter, which is... Unfortunate. So, in the end, you're just going to have to expect table variance, as per the norm on alignment issues.
EDIT: After looking through the core deities and their obediences, there's actually not that many that really cause a problem and can't just be made a part of normal preparations. Norgorber's is a pain to do to begin with and hard to not write off as evil, Lamashtu has you torture a living creature to death, and Asmodeus specifically dictates that your best subject is one who's unwilling (and better yet, one you own).
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Lamashtu's is banned from PFS, so non-issue.
Asmodeus' should be able to be performed on a familiar without issue. Preference is to a creature you have dominion over and familiars have the intelligence to be consider sentient.
Though with Norgorber's, I'm unclear if the "poisoned needle" or the "prick" are actually enough for an ingame effect. I'm thinking more like it being not enough poison to actually use a dose, or cause poison damage. With the prick being more of an "ouch" than actual damage. More symbolic and mischievous than evil, though the deity itself is evil.
I think if the one for Norgorber was intended to cause actual damage or use actual doses of poison, it would say somewhere in the description.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Lamashtu's is banned from PFS, so non-issue.
Asmodeus' should be able to be performed on a familiar without issue. Preference is to a creature you have dominion over and familiars have the intelligence to be consider sentient.
Though with Norgorber's, I'm unclear if the "poisoned needle" or the "prick" are actually enough for an ingame effect. I'm thinking more like it being not enough poison to actually use a dose, or cause poison damage. With the prick being more of an "ouch" than actual damage. More symbolic and mischievous than evil, though the deity itself is evil.
I think if the one for Norgorber was intended to cause actual damage or use actual doses of poison, it would say somewhere in the description.
Prick with a poison needle means a needle with a dose of poison. It need not be a strong poison, but no, you really are going around poisoning people. He is the deity of Greed, Secrets, Poison, and Murder. Not minor mischief.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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You must follow someone home and stab them? Yeah, that's pretty obviously an evil act. Asmodeus's sounds like brutal torture to me (familiar or not), which is another ticket on the evil express. Plus, in both cases, if any NPC tags you with a perception check you're likely to be in big trouble.
Then again, you can still worship a deity without doing the obedience.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Using a ruby-bladed knife, inscribe symmetrical cuts into the flesh of another creature—preferably an unwilling sentient being you own or hold dominion over. The blade may be solid ruby or forged of metal and edged with serrated ruby fragments. Devout priests of Asmodeus take pride in crafting elaborate daggers made entirely of ruby. Drain the victim’s blood into a bowl of bone made from the skull of a sentient humanoid. The amount of blood drained is up to you; you don’t have to drain so much that you make the creature weak or too useless to serve you. Use the bowl of blood to draw a large pentagram on the ground. Kneel within the pentagram and concentrate on the glory you will bring to the Prince of Darkness’s name. Gain a +4 profane bonus on saving throws against fire effects.
You don't have to drain enough blood to make the creature weak, but it does need to be enough blood to inscribe a large pentagram on the ground, at least large enough you you to kneel in. I'm not sure you can drain enough blood from a familiar to do that without doing some serious damage to it.
And yes, torturing an unwilling creature as an act of worship to an evil god is evil. As is poisoning a creature as an act of worship to an evil god.
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Honestly, between deific obedience, and celestial obedience, there's enough really nice options that won't cause alignment/roleplay problems. You should probably look to those if you're planning on taking these feats, and avoid anything that might have your character retired for evil actions.
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I think the OP wants to play as evil as possible, after all he started the "what is evil in pfs" thread and the cannibalism thread.
Yes. That is clear.
OP: If you want to play evil characters, try a home game. I can promise that you will have more fun playing evil characters in an environment where everyone is on board.
Having trouble finding a home game where people want to play evil characters? Go to some PFS games and ask around. PFS is great for networking in that way.
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I think the OP wants to play as evil as possible, after all he started the "what is evil in pfs" thread and the cannibalism thread.Yes. That is clear.
OP: If you want to play evil characters, try a home game. I can promise that you will have more fun playing evil characters in an environment where everyone is on board.
Having trouble finding a home game where people want to play evil characters? Go to some PFS games and ask around. PFS is great for networking in that way.
Actually don't have any interest in playing an EVIL character. I just like the lines drawn as to what is what. When I build a character, I like to know what my options are, and what the options mean.
As for Deific Obedience, I believe the intention is that each is equally difficult, otherwise there would be considerably more impressive boons for completing the daily ritual, and the following prestige classes.
And yes, torturing an unwilling creature as an act of worship to an evil god is evil. As is poisoning a creature as an act of worship to an evil god.
So, by extension, is Deific Obedience to a Good God an act of Good? Does my Lawful Neutral Druid risk alignment change to Lawful Good if I perform daily Deific Obedience to Erastil? Lawful Good is a huge problem for Druids...
I will note that PFS specifically says that use of poison is not an evil action. It's in the FAQ for poison use. And, besides, Norgorber's obedience does not require a creature to be poisoned. It is a PFS legal Obedience, so I don't really understand the flak about using feats allowed by the system.
My question is not specially about evil deities, but about how the Deific Obedience role plays within the PFS system. I used Norgorber as the example because his is a rather involved obedience.
I don't really appreciate the hostile responses to legitimate questions about the game. I shouldn't have to defend myself for things that I haven't said. Please refrain from assuming intentions beyond what is stated.
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Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
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Above the Evil line, alignment shifts are fluid as they will not kill your character. No one really pays attention to good alignment shifts because the "Heroes are being heroic." Evil alignment shifts will get your character marked as dead unless you pay for an atonement. Constantly skirting the line and ignoring the GM asking "Are you sure you want to do that" will get costly from the atonements alone.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Actually don't have any interest in playing an EVIL character. I just like the lines drawn as to what is what. When I build a character, I like to know what my options are, and what the options mean.
Your posts suggest that you want to play an evil character who relies on loopholes to support a claim that he's "technically" not evil. This kind of playstyle tends to be disruptive to Society play, and therefore frowned upon. This is why your posts get negative reactions.
I will note that PFS specifically says that use of poison is not an evil action.
For example, here you are trying to rationalize evil deeds by suggesting they are "technically" not evil. Hint: of Norgy's obedience, the poison is not the evil part, but the setting a trap for the unwary and innocent is.
So, by extension, is Deific Obedience to a Good God an act of Good? Does my Lawful Neutral Druid risk alignment change to Lawful Good if I perform daily Deific Obedience to Erastil?
Some of the obediences count as a good deed. Erastil's in particular does not. Likewise, not all deific obediences for evil deities are automatically evil in and of themselves, but the ones that involve torture are.
More to the point, doing good deeds is not disruptive to Society play, and hence as a neutral-aligned character in PFS you get more leeway for doing Good deeds than for doing Evil ones.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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And yes, torturing an unwilling creature as an act of worship to an evil god is evil. As is poisoning a creature as an act of worship to an evil god.So, by extension, is Deific Obedience to a Good God an act of Good? Does my Lawful Neutral Druid risk alignment change to Lawful Good if I perform daily Deific Obedience to Erastil? Lawful Good is a huge problem for Druids...
Yes. And before you ask, a Deific Obedience to a lawful god is lawful, and etc. But most good and evil and lawful and chaotic deeds are not so egregious as to require an immediate alignment shift.
Torturing unwilling creatures is. Setting traps indescriminately to poison passersby is pretty close. Stalking innocent people who have done nothing to you to poison them is. (As would be stalking innocent people into dark allys to beat them up for no other reason but the glory of your god.)
As for good deities that require good obeisences that could immediately shift your alignment, I think the only one of the core deities that would qualify is Sarenrae under the right situations. (I.e. the person you find to heal is gravely ill, and you spend a significant amount of gold or resources to heal them.)
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Murdock, I hope you can take my previous post as intended. I wasn't trying to give you flak. I was hoping to give you the helpful advice that the questions you are asking suggest that you should seek out a home game to scratch that itch.
I was very careful to not pass judgement, because—honestly—I don't care what character you play. The questions you are asking seem to point to some very interesting characters. Not every interesting character works well in the PFS organized play campaign. Evil characters obviously fits into that category. But, more to the point, so do characters that push the envelope, which is what you seem to want to play. Such characters become disruptive to the table when you need to defend the alignment of your character at a significant number of tables. That slows the game down and leads to hard feelings.
Instead, you could go to some PFS games with a character that is less edgy, meet some people who have similar desires for their RPGs, and set up a home game with those guys.
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Above the Evil line, alignment shifts are fluid as they will not kill your character. No one really pays attention to good alignment shifts because the "Heroes are being heroic."
I will say this isn't universal. At a game I GMed recently 5 of the 6 players moved one step toward chaotic because of the actions they took. (Admittedly in this case it had no mechanical effect because there were no monks and the only character who got spells from a divine source was a previously NG cleric of Sarenrae.)
I had to warn a cleric of Asmodeous once that a particularly altruistic action he was contemplating would result in lost powers as he became good. He decided not to take the action.
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The trick with the obediences is to look at the scenario's pacing and location. Trying to observe the obedience of, say, Ragathiel, is easily accomplished in Absalom or Magnimar or even Tamran...but if you're starting on board a ship that's been at sea for a week - probably not. Likewise even if you start in a city but then trek for two weeks into the Mwangi Expanse, also probably not.
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Here's my take on it.
First, Deific Obedience is a Feat that provides no bonuses on it's own. Use of feats is not evil nor good, lawful nor chaotic. It is just neutral.
Second, the feat provides bonuses in exchange for completing a specific ritual on a daily basis. Completing the ritual in exchange for bonuses, is, again, not evil nor good, lawful nor chaotic. It is just neutral. This is because the PC is doing it for a gain, it is not merely a show of devotion, as the PC can do this without a feat, it is an exchange. Good behaviour for the promise of reward becomes neutral, just like evil behavior for the promise of reward becomes neutral. They are not doing something to be an alignment, they are doing it for the bonuses. This is no different from completing a quest for the promise of payment/reward. It is not good behavior if you do it for the reward. Good must be done for the sake of good, just like evil must be done for the sake of evil.
Third, the difficulty of the "exchange" should be reflected in the bonuses it provides.
My Conclusions:
As a feat, I think this one should be handled no different from preparing spells, regardless of which deity it is for. One hour and a feat is enough to reflect the gains printed in the feat.
If you want to apply a morale, alignment shifting, attachment to this feat, then it should be a free feat. Requiring a feat to waste a dose of poison AND having to find an NPC to stab in exchange for a 3+ bonus on some bluff/diplomacy checks is ridiculous. Doesn't matter how evil your PC is, that's a waste of a feat.
Furthermore, Defic Worship does not reflect alignment. Evil characters can worship good gods, and good characters can worship evil gods. This is no different from real life.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Here's my take on it.
Second, the feat provides bonuses in exchange for completing a specific ritual on a daily basis. Completing the ritual in exchange for bonuses, is, again, not evil nor good, lawful nor chaotic. It is just neutral. This is because the PC is doing it for a gain, it is not merely a show of devotion, as the PC can do this without a feat, it is an exchange. Good behaviour for the promise of reward becomes neutral, just like evil behavior for the promise of reward becomes neutral. They are not doing something to be an alignment, they are doing it for the bonuses. This is no different from completing a quest for the promise of payment/reward. It is not good behavior if you do it for the reward. Good must be done for the sake of good, just like evil must be done for the sake of evil.
Um... you have a bit of a moral disconnect here.
Doing something in exchange for compensation is intrinsicly neutral?
So... Assassins are by definition nuetral?
Also, no, it *is* a show of devotion. You are being rewarded by your deity for demonstrating your devotion to them and your cause. That is the whole point of that feat.
"Your reverence for a deity is so great that daily prayer and minor sacrifices grant you special boons."
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Also, while most moral philosophies do recognize that doing good in exchange for payment is less good than doing it for the glory of good, and some may recognise that doing evil for payment is less evil than doing evil for the glory of evil, I have never heard of a moral philosophy that says you can do as much evil as you like as long as you get paid.
All of which is irrelevant, because you are doing the obedience out of reverence to your deity, and your reverence is so great that your deity rewards you. In other words, you are not just doing it for the reward, because if you were doing it just for the reward, you wouldn't get the reward...
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Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs
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Furthermore, Defic Worship does not reflect alignment. Evil characters can worship good gods, and good characters can worship evil gods. This is no different from real life.
This is actually not true. To gain a mechanical benefit from a deity (such as that granted by deific obedience) you must be within one alignment step from the deity's alignment. That is why even though it would fit there are no Undead Scourge Paladins of Pharasma. If you flip through Inner Sea Gods you will see the LG LN and NG deities have paladin codes but the others do not.
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Second, the feat provides bonuses in exchange for completing a specific ritual on a daily basis. Completing the ritual in exchange for bonuses, is, again, not evil nor good, lawful nor chaotic. It is just neutral. This is because the PC is doing it for a gain, it is not merely a show of devotion, as the PC can do this without a feat, it is an exchange. Good behaviour for the promise of reward becomes neutral, just like evil behavior for the promise of reward becomes neutral. They are not doing something to be an alignment, they are doing it for the bonuses. This is no different from completing a quest for the promise of payment/reward. It is not good behavior if you do it for the reward. Good must be done for the sake of good, just like evil must be done for the sake of evil.
My Conclusions:
As a feat, I think this one should be handled no different from preparing spells, regardless of which deity it is for. One hour and a feat is enough to reflect the gains printed in the feat.
I absolutely disagree with this conclusion. Some people choose evil gods because they think it will be fun to RP an edgy character. Completely acceptable (within reason). Some people choose evil gods because it has a mechanical benefit (such as unlocking the ability to channel negative energy). Also completely acceptable. However, there's a reason why most clerics of Asmodeus stress the Lawful aspect of their deity because focusing on the evil aspect is against PFS rules.
According to your argument, as long as someone pays me to do something heinously evil it isn't evil. That is ridiculous.
"I know you might think it was evil for me to go into a hospital and sacrifice the hearts of all the mothers and unborn babies in the maternity ward, but it wasn't. You see, I had a pact with Lamashtu and in return for those 45 hearts she gave me access to an improved familiar. I wasn't doing it to be evil, I was just doing it for a cool familiar. Therefore, it was actually a neutral act. Besides, I'm sure at least one of those babies would grow up to be a criminal, so I was actually preemptively preventing a crime!"
I usually side against people that 'over-react' by suggesting the ban hammer but your argument, makes me want the powers that be to simplify the issue and just ban the feat. Which is sad because there are still people out there that treat a character concept as more than just a collection of game mechanics.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I usually side against people that 'over-react' by suggesting the ban hammer but your argument, makes me want the powers that be to simplify the issue and just ban the feat. Which is sad because there are still people out there that treat a character concept as more than just a collection of game mechanics.
If they were going to ban anything, it would just need to be banning the Obediences of Evil Deities, much the way they banned Lamashtu's.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Also, I just figured out how to do Norgorber's devotion without becoming evil.
Pick up a wand (or be able to cast) Respectful Silence. Tap yourself, then go out into the crowd. Now no one can hear what you are whispering. Make sure to wear a scarf so no one can read your lips.
May take a couple of taps. It is not clear how long the prayer has to be.
It even is in the spirit of Norgorber, in that you are taking extreme measures to protect the secret of what you are doing. Perfect for a neutral PC who is more focused on the secrets part than the murder part.
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Also, I just figured out how to do Norgorber's devotion without becoming evil.
Pick up a wand (or be able to cast) Respectful Silence. Tap yourself, then go out into the crowd. Now no one can hear what you are whispering. Make sure to wear a scarf so no one can read your lips.
May take a couple of taps. It is not clear how long the prayer has to be.
It even is in the spirit of Norgorber, in that you are taking extreme measures to protect the secret of what you are doing. Perfect for a neutral PC who is more focused on the secrets part than the murder part.
Except that the last part of the obedience for Norgorber is to leave a poisoned needle lying around where someone could accidentally prick themselves. I actually looked at this stuff briefly for my inquisitor of Norgorber, but decided there's no way to make it work. My guy worships the god of secrets and doesn't care that he's also the god of murder, poison, and thievery, so he works fine as a neutral worshiper in the Society. But this obedience really doesn't work for him.
I agree with some of the comments above that campaign staff should probably bring the ban hammer down on the obediences that can't help but be evil. I haven't looked at them all, so maybe some of the evil gods could escape that ban, but taking this feat while worshiping Norgorber clearly doesn't work in Society play.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Also, I just figured out how to do Norgorber's devotion without becoming evil.
Pick up a wand (or be able to cast) Respectful Silence. Tap yourself, then go out into the crowd. Now no one can hear what you are whispering. Make sure to wear a scarf so no one can read your lips.
May take a couple of taps. It is not clear how long the prayer has to be.
It even is in the spirit of Norgorber, in that you are taking extreme measures to protect the secret of what you are doing. Perfect for a neutral PC who is more focused on the secrets part than the murder part.
Except that the last part of the obedience for Norgorber is to leave a poisoned needle lying around where someone could accidentally prick themselves. I actually looked at this stuff briefly for my inquisitor of Norgorber, but decided there's no way to make it work. My guy worships the god of secrets and doesn't care that he's also the god of murder, poison, and thievery, so he works fine as a neutral worshiper in the Society. But this obedience really doesn't work for him.
I agree with some of the comments above that campaign staff should probably bring the ban hammer down on the obediences that can't help but be evil. I haven't looked at them all, so maybe some of the evil gods could escape that ban, but taking this feat while worshiping Norgorber clearly doesn't work in Society play.
Huh. I read that as you either do the secret in the crowd / prick someone if they hear or whisper the secret and leave a needle, but you are correct that it looks like your interpretation is correct.
Rovagug is creepy, but not implicitly alignment shiftingly evil. Zon-Kuthon is surprisingly mild. Urgathoa is more problematic in that you should be having to make a save versus food poisoning at the start of every game.
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So... Assassins are by definition nuetral?
Strictly speaking, an assassin is neutral. (The prestige class is different)
Example, Hostage situation. Assassin is hired to kill the hostage taker. The assassin sneaks in, kills the hostage taker, and leaves to get paid. In the example, the hostages are freed by a third party.
That is neutral behavior. Does what he needs to do, nothing more, without any evil or good intentions. For this reason, assassins are often refereed to as "tools." Tools lack morality, they are just used by others.
Doing something in exchange for compensation is intrinsicly neutral?
Doing something for a reward is neutral. Greedy at times, perhaps, but neutral.
If I hire you to stop a hostage taker and you stop him, that's neutral. If, along the way, you perform deeds of GOOD, they are still deeds of GOOD. But saving people for payment is neutral.
Just like killing animals for food is neutral behavior. That said, you could kill the animals in an EVIL manner, but eat them for needed food, and although the need for food remains neutral, the EVIL way you killed them is still EVIL.
Also, no, it *is* a show of devotion.
Nothing prevents you performing a god's Defic Obdedience without the feat. The bonuses are what the feat provides. As I said, using the feat to gain bonuses is Neutral. No different from using shield focus to improve your shield by 1 AC. Feats are neutral.
This is actually not true. To gain a mechanical benefit from a deity (such as that granted by deific obedience) you must be within one alignment step from the deity's alignment. That is why even though it would fit there are no Undead Scourge Paladins of Pharasma. If you flip through Inner Sea Gods you will see the LG LN and NG deities have paladin codes but the others do not.
You are talking "mechanical benefit" and I just said "deific worship." Also known as religion.
Yes, pathfinder rules will make a cleric into an "Ex-cleric" if their alignments differ too much from their deity. Totally true and totally not what I was talking about. I kinda thought that it was clear when I commented about it being the same in real life.
And even in pathfinder, just because you worship a GOOD God, does not make you a GOOD person. Might make you feel like a GOOD person, but your actions make you GOOD, not your ideals and not your religion.
According to your argument, as long as someone pays me to do something heinously evil it isn't evil. That is ridiculous.
No, being paid to do something is different than doing something for a reward.
I can offer you money to do something, but you can certainly choose to not do it. If you choose to do it, the reason you did the action would depend on your alignment:
Doing it for a reward is neutral. Good does things because it is the "right" thing to do. Chaos does things because they felt like it. Evil does things because doing it would hurt someone. Law would do it because they said they'd do it.
A paladin would do it because it was right and because they said they'd do it. They'd accept the reward, probably, but the reward is not why they did it.
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Are we supposed to do this in play, or during the "downtime"?
Given it takes an hour, seems like you could really derail a short module with this feat.
You're fine. Casters usually take an hour every morning to pray/memorize , fighters train, work out, maintain armor. Outside of a really specific racing scenario or two it shouldn't matter.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Lincoln
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Is there a place that actual says the deific obedience to Lamashtu is not legal for PFS play? I don't actual relish the idea of role-playing it out, but I am building a demon unchained summoner and was planning on worshiping Lamashtu, and I saw the evangelist class for the Mother of Monsters has summoner specific bonuses.
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Venture-Agent, Texas—Houston
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Is there a place that actual says the deific obedience to Lamashtu is not legal for PFS play? I don't actual relish the idea of role-playing it out, but I am building a demon unchained summoner and was planning on worshiping Lamashtu, and I saw the evangelist class for the Mother of Monsters has summoner specific bonuses.
Additional resources: " Misc..: all material in chapter 1 is legal except pages 92-99;" Pages 92-99 are the Lamashtu article which includes her obedience.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Basically it is what you are required to do. If the requirements are easy the DM can waive it. If nto they can make you do it. Some obediences cost money or resources to do. Thus you provide them.
Indeed.
Any GM is well within his rights to rule that Zon-Kuthon's obedience deals hit point damage, or that Urgathoa's or Rovagug's costs a substantial amount of money per day, or that Norgorber's causes your character to be permanently removed (following the rules on Alignment Infractions in the PFS Organized Play guide).