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This is one of those spells I see used more on the boards than I have in (goodness, really?) nearly forty years of play. It has come up a handful of times over the years and never for very long. I am not sure why; I think the casters usually found other things they'd rather do than magic jar. Most of the other instances involved NPCs using the spell.
I've never had to house rule it. It just never came up, really. Until I saw the discussions online it mostly was ignored, sitting in the corner looking sad. :)
My experience is the same as knightnday's. Only 30 years for me, but I've never cast it even as GM. I've used a monster that had it, a long time ago, but it's never seemed to be a good choice for an actual wizard.
I've seen it used a few times. Again, theory-crafting doesn't really enter into it. It's an acceptable way to infiltrate (for example, possess the captain of the guards in order to assassinate the baron), and it's also an acceptable combat spell (posess a brontosaurus and trample all over something).
It's not that great -- you need a suitable target (how many times do you have a friendly brontosaurus just sitting there?), and nine times out of ten, it's easier to use an illusion spell or a charm/compulsion enchantment spell to get the effect you want.
Add to that the fact that spellcasting in most of the worthwhile forms is questionable -- you can't cast your own spells unless your body can both speak and gesture -- and most of the theory-crafting holes (such as casting blood money in the body of a blue whale) are simply not possible.
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ok i didnt sleep in all night but i read the thread title as Magic Jar Jar
Add to that the fact that spellcasting in most of the worthwhile forms is questionable -- you can't cast your own spells unless your body can both speak and gesture -- and most of the theory-crafting holes (such as casting blood money in the body of a blue whale) are simply not possible.
That's why you cast Anthropomorphic Animal on the blue whale first.
Anyway, I cast Possession in my session today to stop a devil from attacking our party. It had been given some poorly worded orders, and possessing it allowed me some time to communicate telepathically with it and find loopholes in the orders it was given, so that it wouldn't attack us after I ended the possession. After a bit of diplomacy, the devil is now going to help us kill the evil guy who bound it in the first place!
ok i didnt sleep in all night but i read the thread title as Magic Jar Jar
I definitely will ban that spell.
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ok i didnt sleep in all night but i read the thread title as Magic Jar JarI definitely will ban that spell.
Darth Darth Binks confirmed.
Add to that the fact that spellcasting in most of the worthwhile forms is questionable -- you can't cast your own spells unless your body can both speak and gesture -- and most of the theory-crafting holes (such as casting blood money in the body of a blue whale) are simply not possible.
Most of the "theorycrafters" have an above average to very high amount of system mastery, and so there are only very rarely "holes" in what they propose. As Castilonium pointed out above, your presumed hole is a flaw in your understanding of how the strategy works, not in the actual strategy itself. It is very important to understand the theory behind the "theorycraft" before commenting on it, to avoid mistakes like this.
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Most of the "theorycrafters" have an above average to very high amount of system mastery, and so there are only very rarely "holes" in what they propose. As Castilonium pointed out above, your presumed hole is a flaw in your understanding of how the strategy works, not in the actual strategy itself. It is very important to understand the theory behind the "theorycraft" before commenting on it, to avoid mistakes like this.Add to that the fact that spellcasting in most of the worthwhile forms is questionable -- you can't cast your own spells unless your body can both speak and gesture -- and most of the theory-crafting holes (such as casting blood money in the body of a blue whale) are simply not possible.
Unfortunately that high level of system mastery seems to run without regard to whether or not the average GM would balk at it. Something can be factually correct by the books and still be considered broken, wrong, or just so out of bounds that it gets denied. Which is why these threads are popping up.
Unfortunately that high level of system mastery seems to run without regard to whether or not the average GM would balk at it. Something can be factually correct by the books and still be considered broken, wrong, or just so out of bounds that it gets denied. Which is why these threads are popping up.Most of the "theorycrafters" have an above average to very high amount of system mastery, and so there are only very rarely "holes" in what they propose. As Castilonium pointed out above, your presumed hole is a flaw in your understanding of how the strategy works, not in the actual strategy itself. It is very important to understand the theory behind the "theorycraft" before commenting on it, to avoid mistakes like this.Add to that the fact that spellcasting in most of the worthwhile forms is questionable -- you can't cast your own spells unless your body can both speak and gesture -- and most of the theory-crafting holes (such as casting blood money in the body of a blue whale) are simply not possible.
Define average GM. Then define what the average GM would balk at. And don't forget to not attack another way of playing the game in your definitions. I'm genuinely curious to hear them.
Lets not derail the thread with discussions about gaming style. Keep it on topic!
Where do people stand on the range limitation. Auto-dying if the host is taken out because your body is out of range seems a real risk.
Also a simple dispel on either the host or receptacle is going to end the spell.
I remember a cool section in the War of the Spider Queen where Gromph Baenre uses magic jar in a creative way.
I like Greater Possession for a free set of hitpoints and conditional immunity to mind-affecting spells. Run around in a lesser simulacrum of yourself!
Define average GM. Then define what the average GM would balk at. And don't forget to not attack another way of playing the game in your definitions. I'm genuinely curious to hear them.Unfortunately that high level of system mastery seems to run without regard to whether or not the average GM would balk at it. Something can be factually correct by the books and still be considered broken, wrong, or just so out of bounds that it gets denied. Which is why these threads are popping up.Most of the "theorycrafters" have an above average to very high amount of system mastery, and so there are only very rarely "holes" in what they propose. As Castilonium pointed out above, your presumed hole is a flaw in your understanding of how the strategy works, not in the actual strategy itself. It is very important to understand the theory behind the "theorycraft" before commenting on it, to avoid mistakes like this.Add to that the fact that spellcasting in most of the worthwhile forms is questionable -- you can't cast your own spells unless your body can both speak and gesture -- and most of the theory-crafting holes (such as casting blood money in the body of a blue whale) are simply not possible.
I'd imagine they'd be the thousands of casual players and GMs that don't frequent these and other boards. They are less interested in passing a few hours time playing than investigating the depths and avenues that the game can take.
There are things that can be done with the system that would startle the average GM/player, not unlike there are things that could be done with your car that might startle the average just-drive-to-work-and-home driver. If you take their car and start doing things better seen in the Fast and Furious, they may balk and ask you to not do that. The same can be said for games.
It isn't a matter of being a wrong or right way to play, but something to the person not invested in seeing if in fact a whale can cast spells that seems wrong somehow.
It tends to get forgotten that we aren't the average folk here on the boards. We're dedicated enough to not only log onto the forums but spend hours arguing over things that many would consider trivial, insane, or not standard play. As I have said before, we're not unlike the football fans in nothing but body paint in negative temperatures in the snow.
I have been an avid user of this spell for a while. The best use of magic jar is to become a SCIAACC, a spell caster in an awesome combat chassis. It is best used in conjunction with planar binding. At the start of your adventuring day you can bring in say a Glabrezu and then inhabit its body. I place my body in a coffin and have the Glabrezu carry me around on its back with straps. It is very rare for my casters to travel around in their own body. The point of being a SCIAACC is not that you can hit hard (as you noted you retain your BAB and feats) but rather that if you get hit hard you do not care, the hitpoints aren't yours any ways. Just make sure you can cast in whatever form you take.
Magic Jar also works great with contingency. Using contingency can get you around the extra round it usually takes to get the spell off You can also have contingency set it off if you become incapacitated in anyway, this can allow you to keep fighting even after your body has been destroyed.
Targeting is the only downside to Magic Jar. It is best for your caster to preform the Magic Jar/planar binding combo outside of medium range from anyone else to avoid jumping into the wrong body.
Another reason Magic Jar is great is because as a necromancy spell, not much is immune to it. It is especially good against sentient undead as they are distinguishable as different from your living allies.
Okay, someone casts dispel magic on you and there is a 50/50 chance you are now trapped in a coffin?
It seems to me, if you are powerful enough to magic jar and summon Glabrezu your magic is probably far more effective than anything a possessed body can achieve.
It also heavily relies on the right creatures around in the gameworld that seems to me entirely reliant on the DM's good grace.
Magic Jar also works great with contingency. Using contingency can get you around the extra round it usually takes to get the spell off You can also have contingency set it off if you become incapacitated in anyway, this can allow you to keep fighting even after your body has been destroyed.
This is a good use as well, but it becomes an issue when you can't tell who you need to possess and you end up in the body of your monk, but without his feats or defense bonus.
Okay, someone casts dispel magic on you and there is a 50/50 chance you are now trapped in a coffin?
It seems to me, if you are powerful enough to magic jar and summon Glabrezu your magic is probably far more effective than anything a possessed body can achieve.
It also heavily relies on the right creatures around in the gameworld that seems to me entirely reliant on the DM's good grace.
Someone could hit you with a dispel magic if they had reason to suspect you were in the Glabrezu to begin with. Sure there are ways to counter it but there are ways to counter most things. And because I made the coffin with marvelous pigments, I put an escape latch.
This is a good use as well, but it becomes an issue when you can't tell who you need to possess and you end up in the body of your monk, but without his feats or defense bonus.
Magic Jar also works great with contingency. Using contingency can get you around the extra round it usually takes to get the spell off You can also have contingency set it off if you become incapacitated in anyway, this can allow you to keep fighting even after your body has been destroyed.
This is an unfortunate posibility but worst case you just leave the monks body with your next standard action. It's one of the reasons why magic jar may not be your best bet in a group fighting living creatures.
Sounds interesting. Maybe as a one off. My party would get really tired waiting for the wizard to summon and possess a glabrezu every day. Particularly as it has a decent will save and SR meaning the chance of failure is not insignificant.
The biggest issue is that there would be several times having a glabrezu for a body would be a signigicant disadvantage.
Glabrezu is just one example. But a will save of +11 and an SR of 24 are not that hard to get past at all. A decently prepared wizard/sorcerer can do this without much risk. Everyday might be a bit much, but every adventuring day might not be.
I feel like the assumption in these threads is that the spell discussed is the only thing that matters in most scenarios, becoming such a focus that people ignore the fact that it's not just the singular spell, but those it acts in concert with.
A caster who's going to use planar binding isn't just gonna use the spell by itself and hope for the best, they'll have a magic circle against X at the very least.
Saying you'll just dispel it ignores any possible precaution the caster would take against the most direct tact aimed against them.
Addendum: This feat is probably standard for anyone that plans to use magic jar on a regular basis.
I guess my point is that casting Planar binding, dimensional anchor, magic circle v evil, contingency and magic jar each day is probably more hassle an it's worth, when a dispel magic will strip the protection away - or even a dismissal. I'm not sure how you would prevent a greater dispel magic.
How do you then also deal with the fact that you don't have any magic items or is you glares up supposed to wear your cloak of resistance.
I get that it can be a useful spell, I'm just not sure that it is worth constantly having it on as a second skin.
I don't honk carrying you lifeless body round on your back in a box is the most sensible thing either.
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Possession from OA pretty much obsoletes Magic Jar, there's even a sidebar begging GMs to get rid of it and use Possession in its place.
I had a GM who really likes RAW so some things happened.
1. You don't know who is who when possessing.
2. You can't leave a body when you are unconscious.
3. You can magic jar into a planar binding circle but not out of one.
4. You can cast the spell twice for a permanent new body.
Addendum: This feat is probably standard for anyone that plans to use magic jar on a regular basis.
That is an awesome feat, unfortunately not PFS legal. Most of my play has been in the PFS setting. (Most of my above experiences were within PFS seeker level modules). But truly that is an awesome feat.
I guess my point is that casting Planar binding, dimensional anchor, magic circle v evil, contingency and magic jar each day is probably more hassle an it's worth,
While the Glabrezu was just one example of possibilities, I'm surprised no one has mentioned a full binding. Demons are immortal and simply return to the abyss when destroyed, so discomfort and inconvenience to the Glabrezu, sure.
Players get access to all kinds of destructive information which is just the candy that Glabrezu love. Surely we can cut a deal.
I had a GM who really likes RAW so some things happened.
1. You don't know who is who when possessing.
2. You can't leave a body when you are unconscious.
3. You can magic jar into a planar binding circle but not out of one.
4. You can cast the spell twice for a permanent new body.
1. You don't know for sure who you are possessing but can tell differences of 4 or more hit die. You can also tell if the life force is powered by negative energy, so if you are fighting undead, you can be sure not to possess your party.
2. No argument here.
3. You may not be able to break the circle... Until you familiar messes it up. "The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram—even a straw laid across it."
4. Hmm, not sure that is strictly read as written. I would like to see the argument that it is.
I guess my point is that casting Planar binding, dimensional anchor, magic circle v evil, contingency and magic jar each day is probably more hassle an it's worth,While the Glabrezu was just one example of possibilities, I'm surprised no one has mentioned a full binding. Demons are immortal and simply return to the abyss when destroyed, so discomfort and inconvenience to the Glabrezu, sure.
Players get access to all kinds of destructive information which is just the candy that Glabrezu love. Surely we can cut a deal.
Trusting a treachery demon, I'm not sure that is something I would rely on.
It is also important to remember that creatures called through planar binding die if killed. Unlike creatures who are summoned.
Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled.
As to whether their soul eventually makes it back to the abyss, I think there is some writing on this. I doubt these reformed souls would retain any memories though.
I guess my point is that casting Planar binding, dimensional anchor, magic circle v evil, contingency and magic jar each day is probably more hassle an it's worth,While the Glabrezu was just one example of possibilities, I'm surprised no one has mentioned a full binding. Demons are immortal and simply return to the abyss when destroyed, so discomfort and inconvenience to the Glabrezu, sure.
Players get access to all kinds of destructive information which is just the candy that Glabrezu love. Surely we can cut a deal.
Demons return to the Abyss after being killed when brought with a summoning spell, but not with a calling spell.
Over 30 years of gameplay experience and the only place I've ever seen the spell used is theorycrafting on the forums.
As has been said earlier, every wizard I've played or seen played has had something better to do with their time.
Glabrezu is just one example. But a will save of +11 and an SR of 24 are not that hard to get past at all. A decently prepared wizard/sorcerer can do this without much risk. Everyday might be a bit much, but every adventuring day might not be.Thanks for providing some context and how you've used it personally, that at least lends context to the discussion. If I'm following its roughly like this, and I've included the things I'd consider if it was in my game and some swags at about where the saves etc would shake out. Please don't take my points as going after your technique, frankly it makes more sense than most of what I've heard people theorize. I'm just trying to work through how I'd check/balance it in my game and looking to see if I have the concept you're talking right.
1. Take 10minutes- Cast Planar Binding (or Greater). Estimated DC ~22 or ~25; if Will save fails (looks like a 13 to 15 or better needed on average...so 25-35% failure rate), creature can try Spell resistance and CHA check, and Dimension Travel to escape and flee/attack.
2. Wait for the bound creature to try all its possible ways to escape for the day, (no reason for it to try all of them until it understands more about what you're doing) or get on with casting Magic Jar under risk of it escaping while you're in middle of the 2 rounds to cast and attempt possession.
3. Clear the AoE of all allies. I can't imagine anyone just allowing you to send their soul to the magic jar "because you can't tell the difference and random dice determined it was PC X not the demon". At least my characters wouldn't).
4. Cast Magic Jar (Standard Action, plus 1Round to possess) Possession attempt also triggers a Will save - Estimated DC ~21 (with same +6 bonus as Planar Binding) ~12 or higher to save, so another 40% failure chance; and another Spell Resistance roll if applicable (if you're casting 9 or 10th level it could be somewhere from 25-50% fail chance)
4a. If you succeed, I'm unclear how you...
There are ways around most of these issues.
You can add a special diagram (a two-dimensional bounded figure with no gaps along its circumference, augmented with various magical sigils) to make the magic circle more secure. Drawing the diagram by hand takes 10 minutes and requires a DC 20 Spellcraft check. You do not know the result of this check. If the check fails, the diagram is ineffective. You can take 10 when drawing the diagram if you are under no particular time pressure to complete the task. This task also takes 10 full minutes. If time is no factor at all, and you devote 3 hours and 20 minutes to the task, you can take 20.
A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level. A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram—even a straw laid across it. The creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above.
The example Glabrezu does not get to use it's SR and it is not going to be able to make the charisma check against my sorcerer. The DC of the charisma is 20+ half caster level+ my charisma modifier. The Glabrezu has a 20 Charisma and with its +5 modifier it can never make the check.
This means that the Glabrezu is unable to escape.
Once the Glabrezu is called, I will always go before it because my initiative modifier is high enough to always win thanks to the spells anticipate peril and heightened awareness.
On my turn I will cast emergency force shield (immediate action), activate my contingencied persistent magic jar (free action), and attempt to possess the glabrezu (standard action). I will auto succeed on the caster level check thanks to greater spell penetration and the use of the cleromancy spell (assuming a +4), I used dweomers essence at lower levels for a costly +5 to the caster level check.
This leaves the glabrezu to make 2 will saves. If it does not get a natural 20 on both I have successfully possessed it.
As for how to get out of the trap myself. I simply have my familiar disturb the circle and then I am free.
The strategy I noted above is best to work out with your DM before hand. Where I have used this I have always given the DM the math beforehand and cleared the tactic with them. It is not fair to take up a table's valuable time sprinting this on a DM last minute.
When the party gets some downtime in a module I simply nod to my DM and let them know I am executing my plan and they roll the dice. It takes less than 1 minute of table time.
This can be accomplished after the mission briefing in most cases.
Does it take a lot of resources and spells known to pull off effectively, sure. But it is as close as I have been able to get my casters to immortality and immortality is the goal most spell casters are after.
You can also pull many of these tricks off even earlier with Marrionette Possession and well worded suggestion spells.
It is rare for my arcane casters to be running around in their own body after about level 7.
Another good use of Magic Jar I had was in a 7-11 where we had to attack a fortress that had a decent amount of undead within it. We were able to get close enough (medium range) to possess one of the undead running around the place. This allowed me to get a good deal of scouting done within and get the surprise on some of our enemies.
This was actually one of my favorite games ever played. Everyone at the table was pulling shenanigans. It was run by one of our VLs and he had quite the time as well. I posted about this experience in another thread.
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I think there is a different issue here that has not been brought up.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit.
How then can you replace an Outsider's soul with your own?
The strategy I noted above is best to work out with your DM before hand. Where I have used this I have always given the DM the math beforehand and cleared the tactic with them. It is not fair to take up a table's valuable time sprinting this on a DM last minute.
When the party gets some downtime in a module I simply nod to my DM and let them know I am executing my plan and they roll the dice. It takes less than 1 minute of table time.
This can be accomplished after the mission briefing in most cases.
Does it take a lot of resources and spells known to pull off effectively, sure. But it is as close as I have been able to get my casters to immortality and immortality is the goal most spell casters are after.
So each time you do it, you're casting how many total spells out of your daily slots/$ worth of scrolls? And its taking almost 4hours in game, does that come off the top of the ~8hr assumed adventuring, or the 8hr making camp, repairing gear, eating?
How often have you had the MJ spell end while the host was still alive or have it dispelled and have to deal with this unhappy outsider? Or damage to the body/coffin from AoE/death-effects, etc? "Where" do you typically do this -just wondering how you avoid any possible interference like mice, insects, wind blown debris, rain, other things that could mess up the magic circle or any of the other requirements.
Any in game issues over time such as outsiders seeking revenge, or gaining the reputation of -that crazy necromancer that runs around in a demon's body-?
What's the party alignment? Definitely the kind of thing I could see evil party supporting, not sure about neutral, and significant use by good would be frowned on in my games.
On the surface, some GM's might just balk at it. But if we'd been gaming together a while and this wasn't disrupting game balance and fun of the rest of the players, or making encounter design to difficult for me I can't say I wouldn't let a player do it. I'd...
This is how my sorcerer currently does it (playing through Moonscar right now) Spells per day is really not a big issue past level 12 or so. The bigger issue at least for sorcerers is spells know. This tactic takes some investment.
The tactic was not as 100% fool proof at lower levels but I have been doing it since level 13 ish.The time it takes is actually not that much. Contingency takes ten minutes, the magic circle takes 10 minutes(taking a 10), and the binding takes 10 mins. Add in a couple of rounds for the additional spells and you are looking at about 31 minutes to complete.
I have never had the spell end with me still in it. I have only had one dispel attempt against it and thankfully it failed. If the duration is about to expire I simply allow myself to be coup d' grace'd. This also takes care of the angry outsider problem. Because Planar Binding is a Conjuration (Calling) spell and not a Conjuration (Summoning) spell, the outsider actually dies if they die.
As to where I do it, someplace safe, a Mage's Magnificent Mansion has been my friend recently.
Party Alignment can be a sticky thing.... there is a reason I am not possessing Movanic Devas. That said the taint of the demon's soul has sullied my sorcerers on more than one occasion (GM ruled I would need an atonement in a couple of cases).
As far as the GM balking at it, I always run everything by the GM beforehand. This is probably a "best practice" for a lot of the spells you have been writing about. (Simulacrum for sure)
BTW keep up these threads.
I think there is a different issue here that has not been brought up.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit.How then can you replace an Outsider's soul with your own?
This is a good question, one I even asked James Jacobs. While he is not a "rules guy" he was the only one with an ASK anything thread at the time and he gave a decent answer.
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How do you overcome the fact that the outsider is inside a magic circle effect and therefore immune to possession and direct control?
Although if you make the deal with the treachery demon you could then possess its body.
How do you overcome the fact that the outsider is inside a magic circle effect and therefore immune to possession and direct control?
Although if you make the deal with the treachery demon you could then possess its body.
Don't bind an outsider with a circle that matches your alignment?
Unless you sit on one of the 4 ends of the alignment grid (LE, CE, LG, CG) and the thing you are trying to bind matches your alignment exactly, then there is always a type of circle that will let you bind the outsider, but that won't block your own possession attempts.
Hmm, surely it is hard to argue that demon summoning and wearing their bodies every day is fairly evil act. I just assumed the guy was also evil and playing in a relaxed campain.
Alignment issues tend to be quite controversial but can we at least agree that calling demons that could potentially be free to wreak havoc across the world is an evil act.
Plus the protection from possession being subject to alignment is down to DM discretion as it specifies in the spell. Possession of another creature to hijack its body as a meat shield would always be an evil act to me.
*sorry meant to say hard not to argue
And its taking almost 4hours in game, does that come off the top of the ~8hr assumed adventuring, or the 8hr making camp, repairing gear, eating?
The party always seems to find time to spare when they need something crafted...
Does confusion count? Sleep? Cause Fear? Harpy song? Siren song? Nereid Beguiling Aura? (I'm aware the last two are usually not evil, but substitute with Protection from Chaos) Those are all questions I've seen asked and there is no one simple answer.
contingencied persistent magic jar
Contingency works on a spell with a level up to 1/3 your caster level. Persistent Magic Jar is 7th level so minimum caster level 21. Not impossible with items etc., but not something you can do as soon as magic jar comes online at character level 9-10.
Magic Jar is on my personal list of 'spells I won't normally use in order to avoid breaking the game'. It may make an appearance when I want to put on a show, but it's not a standard problem-solving technique.
I think there is a different issue here that has not been brought up.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit.How then can you replace an Outsider's soul with your own?
Oh yes. I forgot this one. My GM who loves RAW was nearly driven mad by this question when it came up. We decided that rules are rules and the spell just finds a way to collapse these metaphysical questions.
I saw a little bit of light die from his eyes that day.