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Hello everyone! Question on Stealth and Darkness Blessing of Warpriest.
First part about mechanics:
1. Do I understand correctly that for one minute, while I have a blessing, I can go in Stealth, even being observed (because there is a concealment)?
2. Can I do this in the beginning of my turn (while being observed), combining stealth check with the movie action, and after doing the shot (on the same turn ) and get a bonus for a sneak attack?
3. If yes, can I do the same, but without movie action? I mean, what action it will be to go to stealth when I'm already in concealment)?
3. Can I go into Stealth while have this blessing, after I did an attack? And after made the move action and standard attack action on one turn?
Second part about combine this blessing with any good tactics, maybe with some feats, or maybe some sneaky tips - to do my fight strategy better.
Thanks everybody!
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Question 1. Do I understand correctly that for one minute, while I have a blessing, I can go in Stealth, even being observed (because there is a concealment)?
Alright, the uses of concealment tells us that you either need concealment or cover to make a stealth check.
Concealment and Stealth Checks: You can use concealment to make a Stealth check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Stealth check.
Furthermore, the Modifier paragraph in the Stealth skill also has a clause about being observed.
Being Observed If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
So you need either Cover or Concealment to Stealth, but you can't use Stealth if you are observed.
So the answer to question 1 is: No. You have only fulfilled half of the requirements.
However, there are ways to achieve that other half. The "Create a Diversion to Hide" paragraph of the Stealth skill explains that you can use the Bluff skill to avert your observers attention-allowing you to use the Stealth skill. Unfortunately, the action to "Decieve or Lie" using your Bluff skill takes a round.
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Uses of the Darkness Blessing
You could however use the Darkness blessing to hide in open areas as long as you begin using Stealth when you are unobserved. This means you can ambush people even though there is no cover for miles around as long as you started Stealthing before they got there. You could also sneak up on people even though there is no cover around, which isn't normally possible with the Stealth skill.
You will also have the ability to escape in 2 rounds.
Creating a diversion - 1 round
Activating your Darkness Blessing - Standard action
Using Stealth - Move action (or a free action while moving)
Lastly, the concealment will prevent you from taking sneak attack damage since one normally can't get sneak damage off when the target has concealment.
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If you want to be able to Stealth everywhere you would need the Hide in Plain Sight ability. This would bypass the need for being unobserved, but you'll still need either Concealment or Cover (which you have).
If we assume you either have this ability or have created a diversion to use stealth, then I can answer the rest of your questions.
Question 2. Can I do this in the beginning of my turn (while being observed), combining stealth check with the movie action, and after doing the shot (on the same turn ) and get a bonus for a sneak attack?
Yes. A move action to use Stealth, and then a standard action to make a single attack. The target of the attack would be denied his/her Dex bonus since it would be a sneak attack. This would however break your Stealth.
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Question 3. If yes, can I do the same, but without movie action? I mean, what action it will be to go to stealth when I'm already in concealment)?
No. To use Stealth, you'll either need to use a move action or spend a move action to MOVE and be granted the Stealth as a free action. (Kind of how you can draw a weapon if you use a move action to move)
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Question 4(3b). Can I go into Stealth while have this blessing, after I did an attack? And after made the move action and standard attack action on one turn?
Attacking anyone will make you observed and break your Stealth. You would want to use Sniping.
Sniping
If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
If you aren't Sniping then you won't be able to enter Stealth after the attack. Using Stealth is always a move action, so it takes both a Standard and Move action to use Sniping.
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And remember that you can't fire a bow if you have used your move action to move that round. So you'll have to stand perfectly still while you use Sniping.
Hello everyone! Question on Stealth and Darkness Blessing of Warpriest.
First part about mechanics:
1. Do I understand correctly that for one minute, while I have a blessing, I can go in Stealth, even being observed (because there is a concealment)?
2. Can I do this in the beginning of my turn (while being observed), combining stealth check with the movie action, and after doing the shot (on the same turn ) and get a bonus for a sneak attack?
3. If yes, can I do the same, but without movie action? I mean, what action it will be to go to stealth when I'm already in concealment)?
3.4. Can I go into Stealth while have this blessing, after I did an attack? And after made the move action and standard attack action on one turn?Second part about combine this blessing with any good tactics, maybe with some feats, or maybe some sneaky tips - to do my fight strategy better.
Thanks everybody!
1. Do I understand correctly that for one minute, while I have a blessing, I can go in Stealth, even being observed (because there is a concealment)?
Yes.
Being Observed If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Under the effect, you have concealment. Even being observed does not remove that. Having concealment lets you make a check. If you don't have concealment or cover, then you need the bluff check to get a chance to stealth as per the rest of the paragraph.
Remember, you are not going invisible. They know the square where you are, but they cannot tell what you are doing, which gives the bonuses you are looking for.
2. Can I do this in the beginning of my turn (while being observed), combining stealth check with the movie action, and after doing the shot (on the same turn ) and get a bonus for a sneak attack?
No. You don't have sufficient actions.
Activate the blessing: Standard
Stealth check while moving: Move
Take a shot: Standard
3. If yes, can I do the same, but without movie action? I mean, what action it will be to go to stealth when I'm already in concealment)?
Still no. Even if you get the stealth check by 5' stepping, you cannot do a pair of standard actions in a round.
3. 4. Can I go into Stealth while have this blessing, after I did an attack? And after made the move action and standard attack action on one turn?
Yes. While you have the blessing you can make stealth checks as part of moving.
Note: this works against creatures with darkvision, but not against creatures with see in darkness (i.e. demons/devils/...).
/cevah
@Kaleb
Glad you liked it!
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It would seem as if I and Cevah have come to different conclusions regarding wether or not you can use Stealth while observed or not.
The belief that you can use Stealth while being observed as long as you have Cover or Concealment is derived from the second sentence of the "Being Observed" paragraph.
Being Observed If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Every other sentence of that paragraph is in conflict with the assumption that "You can Stealth while being observed", so it is far more likely that it means something else.
Cover or Concealment is already a requirement for using Stealth, why would this paragraph even exist if the observed condition is disabled by Cover and Concealment?The deal-breaker, however, is abilities like "Hide in Plain Sight".
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)
While in any of his favored terrains, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill even while being observed.
If it was true that you can use Stealth while being observed as long as you have Cover or Concealment, then Hide in Plain Sight would be useless.
Note: Total Concealment breaks Line of Sight, which would make him unobserved and allow for the use of Stealth. Normal Concealment does not break LoS.
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Another difference is that Cevah mentions that you can use the 5-foot-step to Stealth since it counts as movement. This is certainly true, but remember that you won't be able to benefit from this since you don't have the Hide in Plain Sight ability.
Breaking Stealth When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
If you don't use Sniping then your stealth will end the moment you roll for the first attack, and you will be observed. This would prevent you from entering Stealth yet again, unless you have the Hide in Plain Sight ability.
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Difference in action economy with and without Hide in Plain Sight
Someone without Hide in Plain Sight must prevent his enemies from observing him. The only way to not break Stealth (and becoming observed) during combat is to use Sniping.
Since Sniping consists of a Standard action for the attack action, and a move to Stealth, the character without Hide in Plain Sight can only fire one arrow per turn if he wants to retain his Stealth condition.
A character with Hide in Plain Sight can break his stealth (and become observed) and still enter Stealth (while being observed) during the same round.
This would let him use his standard and move action during a round to make a full-round attack action, while he then uses the 5-foot-step to enter Stealth.
The difference is that the character with Hide in Plain Sight would be noticed if he doesn't use Sniping, which would allow enemies to locate him. If they ready an action, they can also attack him during that window in time where he isn't in Stealth.
It would seem as if I and Cevah have come to different conclusions regarding wether or not you can use Stealth while observed or not.
The belief that you can use Stealth while being observed as long as you have Cover or Concealment is derived from the second sentence of the "Being Observed" paragraph.Being Observed If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.Every other sentence of that paragraph is in conflict with the assumption that "You can Stealth while being observed", so it is far more likely that it means something else.
Breakdown:
1) If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.2) Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.
3) If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth.
4) While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
I see it as:
1) You can't stealth if observed.
2) Unless ...
3) Unless ...
4) Unless ...
You can use cover to make a Stealth check. Without cover, you usually need concealment (see below) to make a Stealth check.
You can use concealment to make a Stealth check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Stealth check.
I can be observed, but if I have cover/concealment I can still make the check to gain stealth. I also need to end in cover/concealment or I break stealth.
/cevah
Ignoring the fact that you ignored "Hide in Plain Sight", I feel as if you might have the wrong idea of what the Stealth skill actually does.
Remember, you are not going invisible. They know the square where you are, but they cannot tell what you are doing, which gives the bonuses you are looking for.
and
I can be observed, but if I have cover/concealment I can still make the check to gain stealth. I also need to end in cover/concealment or I break stealth.
You don't "gain stealth". The Pathfinder Stealth skill is made up of two D&D skills. Hide and Move Silently, as we can see from the description of Stealth.
You are skilled at avoiding detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from an unseen position. This skill covers hiding and moving silently.
You can use the Stealth skill to hide and/or move silently. To "maintain your obscured location" as it is written in the Sniping Paragraph. If the enemies know which square you are in, then your Stealth has been broken.
As you said, "you are not going invisible", you are simply hiding.
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Omitted
Breakdown:
1) If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.
2) Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.
3) If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth.
4) While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.I see it as:
1) You can't stealth if observed.
2) Unless ...
3) Unless ...
4) Unless ...
Yes. You are free to make your own conclusions. But you will need to take it a step further. What are the implications of a rule that you can use Stealth while observed as long as you have Cover or Concealment?
It would make "Cover or Concealment" the only requirement for using Stealth. This would imply that the paragraph should be read as:1) If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.
2) Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. You can normally use Stealth even while observed.
3) If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.*
I am very confident that the second statement in the paragraph shouldn't contradict the first. Since that would make every other sentence about being observed obsolete.
*Note that the third and fourth sentence weren't meant to be seperated. (See the Hide skill from D&D.)
"Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth" means:
"Finding cover or concealment often means that you have to become unobserved, and in those cases, you can use Stealth."
All mundande ways of achieving cover/concealment involves disrupting/clouding your targets observance of you.
Notable examples:
Running around a corner.
Running into the night.
Ignoring the fact that you ignored "Hide in Plain Sight", I feel as if you might have the wrong idea of what the Stealth skill actually does.
Hide in plain sight means you can make a check without needing cover or concealment. Normally you need it.
If the enemies know which square you are in, then your Stealth has been broken.
No it has not.
They cannot target you, but only your square.Example of knowing your square, but not loosing stealth:
I know he's somewhere behind that wall, but I don't know if he is on the left part, the right part, hunkered down low in the center, or away a bit behind it, because I cannot see him. He might show up left, right, or over, but I just cannot tell.
2)Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.You can normally use Stealth even while observed.
These are not even close statements.
Try this:
If you have cover or concealment, you can make a check to gain stealth.
I am very confident that the second statement in the paragraph shouldn't contradict the first. Since that would make every other sentence about being observed obsolete.
*Note that the third and fourth sentence weren't meant to be seperated. (See the Hide skill from D&D.)
If you apply the same reasoning for statement #3 and #4 as you do #2, then you cannot snipe nor bluff to gain stealth.
Statements #2, #3, and #4 are specific exceptions to the general rule in statement #1.
/cevah
Ignoring the fact that you ignored "Hide in Plain Sight", I feel as if you might have the wrong idea of what the Stealth skill actually does.Hide in plain sight means you can make a check without needing cover or concealment. Normally you need it.
That is simply not true. I find it frightening that you can rationalize that something black actually is white.
While in any of his favored terrains, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill even while being observed.
I don't even need to make anything bold. It is as clear as day what they meant.
But if you want further proof, I can present to you the Camouflage ability that the Ranger is granted at level 12. (earlier than Hide in Plain Sight.)A ranger of 12th level or higher can use the Stealth skill to hide in any of his favored terrains, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.
Hide in Plain Sight does not grant you the ability to make a check without needing cover or concealment. That is what Camouflage does. You can't possibly mean that Camouflage does the exact same thing as Hide in Plain Sight, when they are different abilities granted to the same class?
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If the enemies know which square you are in, then your Stealth has been broken.No it has not.
They cannot target you, but only your square.
Example of knowing your square, but not loosing stealth:
I know he's somewhere behind that wall, but I don't know if he is on the left part, the right part, hunkered down low in the center, or away a bit behind it, because I cannot see him. He might show up left, right, or over, but I just cannot tell.
The enemies can only know what square you possess if they have beaten your Stealth check with their Perception check. If they are aware of you, then you are not in Stealth.
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment.
And your example is much to ambiguous. The person in question doesn't actually know what square the one using Stealth is in.
A better example would be:
I know he's in the most norther square behind that wall, since I used the noise he makes to pinpoint his location. He might show up left, right, or over, but when he does, I will be ready.
Really, your example is of someone who have failed their Perception check and doesn't know the location at all.
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2)Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.You can normally use Stealth even while observed.These are not even close statements.
Try this:
If you have cover or concealment, you can make a check to gain stealth.
Again, there is nothing which is called "gaining stealth". You use the Stealth skill to hide.
Requirements for using Stealth according to me:
1. Cover or Concealment
2. Not being observed
Requirements for using Stealth according to you:
1. Cover or Concealment
2. Not being observed. But if you have cover or concealment, you can make a check to gain stealth.
The second requirement is nullified by the first according to that reasoning. Which in turn would make it the only requirement.
If you have cover or concealment, you can make a check to gain stealth.
means the same thing as
"You can normally use Stealth even while observed."
Which isn't true.
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I am very confident that the second statement in the paragraph shouldn't contradict the first. Since that would make every other sentence about being observed obsolete.
*Note that the third and fourth sentence weren't meant to be seperated. (See the Hide skill from D&D.)If you apply the same reasoning for statement #3 and #4 as you do #2, then you cannot snipe nor bluff to gain stealth.
Statements #2, #3, and #4 are specific exceptions to the general rule in statement #1.
There are actually only 3 statements in that paragraph.
1) If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.
2) Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.
3) If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
#3 is an example of how you lose the observed condition. It is not an example of an exception.
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Cevah,
Before you fire up your typewriter to make another rebuttal, take a step back to think things through. It is not a sin to be wrong about something, but it is a sin to never consider that you might be wrong.
It is you who does not understand stealth.
Please read the Hide-in-Plain-Sight thread.
And for the record, your first mention was "Hide in Plain Sight" and not "Ranger's HIPS". There are several versions you could have been referring to.
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Stealth has broken means you can be seen.
Square is located is not sufficient for breaking stealth.
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Requirements for using Stealth according to Wonderstell:
1. Cover or Concealment AND
2. Not being observed
Requirements for using Stealth according to Cevah:
1. Cover or Concealment OR
2. Not being observed OR
3. Sniping OR
4. Successful bluff & move
/cevah
It is you who does not understand stealth.
Please read the Hide-in-Plain-Sight thread.
I read through the thread to about post 60-70, but as I noticed they strayed away from our topic I assumed it was okay to stop there. Could you please say what post or who you are referring to? There are ridiculous amount of text-walls in that thread, so this would help me see your point.
As a matter of fact, I now only feel as if my view of the rules have been strengthened.
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And for the record, your first mention was "Hide in Plain Sight" and not "Ranger's HIPS". There are several versions you could have been referring to.
True, I apologize. As far as I'm concerned, there are only two (major) variations of HiPS.
The one we can see in the Ranger/Hunter class, which both grants the Camouflage ability before that.
And the one from Shadowdancer, which has an requirement of you being within 10 ft of an area of dim light.
But that is not the point. The existance of the Camouflage ability is still the most clear contradiction to your view of the rules. If you can't explain why both Camouflage and HiPS exists, then you have no argument.
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Stealth has broken means you can be seen.
Square is located is not sufficient for breaking stealth.
Your enemies can only target a square they think you are hiding in, and if they guess correctly, then they also have to deal with your 50% miss chance.
I derive this statement from the "Hide" paragraph.
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
If they are aware that something is in one specific square, then they have beaten your Stealth. You use Stealth to prevent enemies from being aware of you.
As said previously; you are not going invisible.
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Requirements for using Stealth according to Wonderstell:
1. Cover or Concealment AND
2. Not being observedRequirements for using Stealth according to Cevah:
1. Cover or Concealment OR
2. Not being observed OR
3. Sniping OR
4. Successful bluff & move/cevah
First of all, I'm sorry for placing words in your mouth. I just couldn't see your point, but now I understand where you're coming from.
I would like to clarify that Sniping is simply a continuation of your already existing use of Stealth, and should therefore not be in this list, since the action itself is dependant on the requirements for using Stealth.
The we have the "Successful bluff & move". Creating a Diversion is a way of getting rid of the "being observed"/"enemies being aware" condition which would prevent you from using Stealth. It is only a way to ignore another requirement.
So your list should be shortened down to:
Requirements for using Stealth according to Cevah:
1. Cover or Concealment OR
2. Not being observed
And I find your view very strange. Where have you derived your conclusion that Cover/Concealment isn't needed in some cases? If noone is observing you, then there is no need to use Stealth.
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And I think I'll have to rephrase my previous statement.
Requirements for initiating Stealth according to Wonderstell:
1. Cover or Concealment
2. Not being observed
Can you see what the difference implies?
You can be observed while using Stealth. Yes.
If your enemies haven't beaten your Stealth check, that means they haven't noticed you. They can look directly at you but won't realize that there is something there.
However, you still can't initiate Stealth while being observed. The Stealth skill is purely mundande. You can't (normally) disappear from plain view just by wishing for it. That's magic.
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It is important that you recognize what the Stealth skill actually does. I say that you don't understand what the Stealth skill does since you talk about arbitrary terms such as "gaining Stealth". The only thing the Stealth skill does is allowing you to Hide and/or Move Silently
Remember, you are not going invisible. They know the square where you are, but they cannot tell what you are doing, which gives the bonuses you are looking for.
There are no bonuses to be had if they know where you are. Concealing your movements is closer to Sleight of Hand than Stealth, wouldn't you agree?
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I see you have picked up my use of stars to mark the ending/start of paragraphs! It is pretty handy, right?
Cevah has the right of it. Cover/Concealment break observation.
@Wonderstell:
HIPS: Thread to capture much of the confusion, so it can be set right.
The threads above are but some of the many on the subject. It is these threads that have shaped my understanding. As you do not see my words as sufficient, perhaps some of there will be more compelling.
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Example of square known but no character seen:
In a recent conflict, my character had Greater Invisibility and I got hit with Glitterdust. Made my save, but still covered in glowing bits. The enemy clearly knew my square, but I still could not be targeted. I had a -40 penalty to stealth, so I did not even bother trying that, but I had a 50% miss chance.
Another time, again with Greater Invisibility, I was adjacent to a creature with Scent. They could pinpoint my square, but I still had a 50% miss chance.
In both cases, I was able to apply sneak attack damage. Something I could not do if they had spotted me.
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Sniping is not a continuation of stealth. As soon as you attack, you break stealth unless you have a means of attacking unseen (like Greater Invisibility). What sniping is, is the ability to regain stealth despite being momentarily being observed. That is where the penalty to stealth comes into play.
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Hellcat stealth is another major form of HIPS. And I think someone mentioned a 4th method, but don't recall at the moment.
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"Breaking stealth", "Hide", and "Move Silently" are not rules terms, but common language usage. Don't criticize me for the initial term, when you are using the other terms.
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Main bonus for my character for being unseen in a known square is that I still get sneak attack and possibly a +2 on my attack.
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You aren't the first to use stars. :-)
/cevah
FYI, Glitterdust actually negates Invisibility. That's what the "outlining invisible things" clause is all about. See here.
FYI, Glitterdust actually negates Invisibility. That's what the "outlining invisible things" clause is all about. See here.
Jason Bulmahn wrote that, not PDT. Therefore only his RAI not RAW.
A cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades. Each round at the end of their turn blinded creatures may attempt new saving throws to end the blindness effect.
Any creature covered by the dust takes a -40 penalty on Stealth checks.
Where in the rules does a "visible outline" negate Invisibility? Sure, it counters the spell's +20/+40 bonus to stealth with a -40 penalty to stealth, but it does not remove the spell nor does it suppress it.
Faerie fire specifically calls out countering concealment from invisibility.Glitterdust does not.
/cevah
Since we another participant who also tells me that Cover/Concealment breaks observance, I guess I'll have to "take a step back to think things through".
@Wonderstell:
** spoiler omitted **
Thread about the difference.HIPS: Thread to capture much of the confusion, so it can be set right.
The threads above are but some of the many on the subject. It is these threads that have shaped my understanding. As you do not see my words as sufficient, perhaps some of there will be more compelling.
I feel as if we might be misunderstanding eachother. In the first thread everyone is of the opinion that:
"If I have HiPS I can hide while you are staring me in the face as long as I can get to cover or gain concealment before the end of my turn."
(paraphrased from wraithstrike, the OP of the thread.)
In other words, HiPS does not negate the need for Cover or Concealment.
Isn't that what I have been saying, and you have advocated the opposite of?
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As for the HiPS thread by DM_Blake:
I'm trying to see things from your point of view, and I can see how it makes sense.
My belief is that "observance" is a condition that is most easily comparable to LoS. If someone is observing you, then that can only be negated by certain Cover or Concealment. Such as Total Concealment and standing behind a wall.
But on the other hand, maybe the "Being Observed" paragraph isn't an addition to the requirements of Cover or Concealment, it could be the explanation as to why Cover or Concealment is needed.
One of the reasons as to why I had a hard time accepting this is because that would make the Darkness ability as good as HiPS+Camouflage, while being a first level power. But the rules for Vision and Light would prevent that, since you still can't hide in Bright/Normal light without cover.
The other reason is Camouflage and HiPS. I mean, Camouflage will let you act as if you had Cover/Concealment, but it doesn't let you act as if you weren't observed (but that is what Cover/Concealment does according to your viewpoint, right?).
And the HiPS ability doesn't make it any clearer. You can use Stealth while observed, but you will still need Cover/Concealment.
How are these two abilities in lieu with the reasoning that all Cover/Concealment negates observance?
Could you explain what in these threads formed your opinion?
The first thread didn't answer my question, or even raise a doubt of my own opinion.
Here's DM_Blake's opinion on observance from an older thread.
You are "observed" when you are in a location where at least one opponent can perceive you. Generally this perception requires vision, but some opponents may have other senses, including Blindsense, that they can use to locate you. Conversely, you are "unobserved" when you are in a position where your enemies cannot perceive you using any sense, which almost always means you have Cover or Concealment. It is possible to be observed by some enemies while being unobserved by other enemies, but those who do observe you can instantly alert those who cannot by speaking as a free action, even if it is not their turn.
This implies that he is of the belief that observance is closer to LoS, and therefore shouldn't be interrupted by 20% Concealment.
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Example of square known but no character seen:
In a recent conflict, my character had Greater Invisibility and I got hit with Glitterdust. Made my save, but still covered in glowing bits. The enemy clearly knew my square, but I still could not be targeted. I had a -40 penalty to stealth, so I did not even bother trying that, but I had a 50% miss chance.
Another time, again with Greater Invisibility, I was adjacent to a creature with Scent. They could pinpoint my square, but I still had a 50% miss chance.
In both cases, I was able to apply sneak attack damage. Something I could not do if they had spotted me.
This isn't a very fair example. We are discussing the mundane skill Stealth, not spells.
If you had been using Stealth during your examples, what would have been different?
I would say that the creature with Scent would have instantly found you when you moved within 5 ft of it, and therefore broken your Stealth.
That is not an example of "square known but no character seen".
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Sniping is not a continuation of stealth. As soon as you attack, you break stealth unless you have a means of attacking unseen (like Greater Invisibility). What sniping is, is the ability to regain stealth despite being momentarily being observed. That is where the penalty to stealth comes into play....
I don't agree.
If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
"You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location."
If you were observed then your enemies would have located your "obscured location".(Note that it says "location", not "located you". If it was the later, you would be correct.)
"If you've already successfully used Stealth/.../" means that you are, infact, already using Stealth.
And since we begin the turn using Stealth, and then end the turn using Stealth, I simply called it a continuation. You are never noticed when Sniping, so I don't see a problem with calling as such.
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"Breaking stealth", "Hide", and "Move Silently" are not rules terms, but common language usage. Don't criticize me for the initial term, when you are using the other terms.
Hide and Move Silently are both skills from D&D, I am simply referring to them since they are the foundation of the Stealth skill.
Oh, and Breaking Stealth has its own paragraph, so I am referring to that paragraph when I'm discussing the conditions for Breaking Stealth.
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Main bonus for my character for being unseen in a known square is that I still get sneak attack and possibly a +2 on my attack.
Sneak attack I can easily see how you achieve. But where does the +2 come from? Are we still talking about using only the Stealth skill?
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I believe the Stealth skill is used to Hide, and nothing else.
In other words, if someone is hiding in the middle of nowhere with his Darkness blessing, then he could be disguised as a tree or look like a shadow on the ground.
As long as he succeeds with his Stealth checks, then the enemies won't realize that the tree is actually a person. Even as he uses Sniping to hurt them, they don't suspect the tree.
If they ever realized that he wasn't a tree, then they would be on alert for any movements made and be able to react to his ranged attacks.
Are you of a different opinion?
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You aren't the first to use stars. :-)
Curses! And here I thought I was being clever!
A while back, you briefly described a scenario:
Nope... what I described was merely an opening ambush type attack. Once a rogue stabs someone after he sneaks up on him, OBVIOUSLY (at least, I hope it's obviously) that victim will now know that the rogue is after him. At that point, the game assumes that the victim is keeping an eye on the rouge so that the rogue has to flank in order to keep doing sneak attacks. If there's concealment, a rouge CAN slip into hiding, but that DOES require a place for him to hide. He can't just "go behind the victim" because the victim is now aware of the rogue.In a scenario like this one, with the rogue being observed, would he be able to just step into the concealment and roll for Stealth? He's still observed right? Wouldn't he need something to completely break line of sight like a bluff check, total concealment, etc...?That's pretty much what I said in the quote. "If there's concealment, a rogue CAN slip into hiding..."
Concealment gives the rogue (or ANYONE for that matter) the opportunity to make a Stealth check. If she's successful, the person observing her loses track of her, and she can then make a sneak attack or whatever when she's next able to do so.
This issue crops up quite a bit. So much so that they had a playtest to try to revamp how Stealth worked. Because of spacing limitations in the CRB, they didn't adopt the changes explicitly, but they do evince how things are intended to function (particularly with respect to sneak attacking and breaking stealth).
Regardless, the point here is that Concealment (just the 20% variety) is intended to allow for a Stealth check. This seems very powerful on first blush, but remember how many monsters in particular have darkvision which means that 20% concealment from poor lighting, the most common way to get it, does nothing against them). JJ isn't a "rules guy" as we all like to say, but this appears to generally be the intended function of Stealth (as seen in the quote tree above).
The language used in the CRB is Concealment and Cover, not the Total versions of either.
Stealth is not used to disguise yourself - that's what Disguise is for. Stealth is used to hide behind an already existent tree or within the shadows to remain unnoticed, not to convince people you're something you're not.
Camouflage lets a Ranger roll a Stealth check in his favored terrain of completely empty, white padded rooms. So when you walk in after s/he makes a Stealth check, you're none the wiser until s/he pokes you in the side and says hello (aka - "Holy crap! Where did you come from!?").
HIPS lets a Ranger roll a Stealth check in his favored terrain of completely empty, white padded rooms while you're looking directly at him/her (aka - "What the f... s/he was just right there!").
FYI, Glitterdust actually negates Invisibility. That's what the "outlining invisible things" clause is all about. See here.Jason Bulmahn wrote that, not PDT. Therefore only his RAI not RAW.
A cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for the duration of the spell. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades. Each round at the end of their turn blinded creatures may attempt new saving throws to end the blindness effect.
Any creature covered by the dust takes a -40 penalty on Stealth checks.
Where in the rules does a "visible outline" negate Invisibility? Sure, it counters the spell's +20/+40 bonus to stealth with a -40 penalty to stealth, but it does not remove the spell nor does it suppress it.
Faerie fire specifically calls out countering concealment from invisibility.
Glitterdust does not./cevah
In fairness, that post was made ~3 years before the PDT account was even a thing. So Bulmahn making a statement on the rules, citing the fact that he's the lead designer of the game, should probably be given some hefty consideration.
OmittedOmitted
Well, that was really informative. If that is what JJ says I'll simply have to correct myself after him.
So. You do not use Stealth to continue being unobserved, you use it to disrupt being observed.
I would just like to point out that my example was one where the player had absolutely nothing to hide behind, so I was being a tad bit creative with the hiding spot. The point I was trying to make is that the Stealth skill is used to hide. If your enemies have located your square, then they know where you are and where you will attack from.
Cevah has been arguing that enemies can know your exact square while your Stealth still isn't broken, which I found senseless.
But since C/C breaks observance Cevah was right.
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One last retort!
Camouflage lets a Ranger roll a Stealth check in his favored terrain of completely empty, white padded rooms. So when you walk in after s/he makes a Stealth check, you're none the wiser until s/he pokes you in the side and says hello (aka - "Holy crap! Where did you come from!?").
HIPS lets a Ranger roll a Stealth check in his favored terrain of completely empty, white padded rooms while you're looking directly at him/her (aka - "What the f... s/he was just right there!").
Those explanations are perfectly in lieu with my (wrong) assumption of what the requirement for using Stealth was. In fact, aren't these examples contradicting the rule that C/C breaks observance?
If "Being Observed" is a condition negated by C/C, then HiPS wouldn't actually do anything. The only thing needed is C/C, which it doesn't grant.
Cevah thought HiPS negated the need for C/C, since that is the only way it would allow you to "Hide in Plain Sight". As it stands, HiPS grants you the ability to ignore something you would have bypassed anyway when you have fulfilled the requirements for using Stealth (C/C, that is).
This is the reason as to why I can't believe anything less than Total Concealment breaks observance.
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Or does HiPS actually let you use Stealth in those situations your C/C normally would be negated by a creature who is observing you?
For example a creature with darkvision staring at you in dim light. You would have C/C if it wasn't for being observed, so you still have it.
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Edit: and what exactly is "a place for him to hide"? Doesn't this indicate that once the Rogue was being observed he isn't able to Stealth until he gets rid of that condition? According to the two last sentences of the first quote; "Being Observed" is something which isn't negated by simply having concealment. You need a place to hide.
If there's concealment, a rouge CAN slip into hiding, but that DOES require a place for him to hide. He can't just "go behind the victim" because the victim is now aware of the rogue.