Hide in Plain Sight - the mega thread to figure out how it works


Rules Questions

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There is another thread running where people are disagreeing on how Hide in Plain Sight works. It's a complex question with lots of moving parts across several different classes and abilities. So I'm making this gigantic post in the hopes of figuring out exactly where the problem is.

Yeah, it's a big mega post, but I broke each rule down into a small bite-sized statement and numbered them all so if anyone disagrees with a statement, he can post his objection and refer to that statement by its number.

To start with, assume a normal guy named Andy who has no special abilities or class features related to Stealth; all he can do is what the skill says. He is in combat and has been in combat for a few rounds already.

1. Andy needs Cover or Concealment to attempt a Stealth check.
2. If Andy moves around and ends his turn without Cover or Concealment, he cannot use Stealth at all - he is totally visible and fully observed.
3. If Andy had successfully used Stealth last turn, and that remains unchanged at the start of this turn, he can make a Stealth check to actually move out into "plain sight" but remain hidden as long as he ends his turn with Cover or Concealment.
4. As with #3, if Andy had successfully used Stealth last turn, and that remains unchanged at the start of this turn, he can make a Stealth check to actually move out into "plain sight" but remain hidden up until the point that he makes an attack, after which he is totally visible and fully observed.
5. If Andy has not previously used Stealth and is therefore totally visible and fully observed, he cannot use Stealth without first finding Cover or Concealment.
6. As with number 5, if Andy does use a move action to find Cover or Concealment, he can attempt a Stealth check, but even if he succeeds, everybody knows where he went - they cannot observe him at this time (he succeeded so the observers failed their Perception checks), but they know where he went.
7. Doing #6 provokes unless the move can be made with a 5'Step.
8. As with number 5 and 6, if Andy first uses Bluff to create a diversion, he can then use a move action to find Cover or Concealment and he can attempt a Stealth check. If he succeeds, nobody knows where he went thanks to the diversion.
9. Doing #8 does not provoke.
10. The opposite of #3, if Andy had successfully used Stealth last turn, and that remains unchanged at the start of this turn, he is NOT allowed to make a Stealth check to actually move out into "plain sight" and use his full turn moving without finding Cover or Concealment, especially not ending his turn with Cover or Concealment - doing this means he is totally visible and fully observed throughout his whole movement, no Stealth check is allowed.

Admittedly, 7, 9, & 10 involve a bit of inference, but all the above should be RAW. Anyone disagree with the above?

Bob is just like Andy, and also in combat, but it's the first round and Bob goes first - everyone else is flat-footed.

11. Bob must have used Stealth before the combat. If he did not, then he cannot attempt #3 or #4 above. There is no assumed Stealth just because it's the start of combat.
12. Perception is reactive, so even flat-footed opponents get to make Perception checks when Bob attempts any Stealth check.

OK, breaking it off there. Please see upcoming posts for Carl, Dave, Ernesto, Fred, and Gomer.

Carl is a Rogue with the advanced talent Hide in Plain Sight and he IS in his favored terrain.

13. Carl can do everything Andy and Bob can do.
14. Rogue HiPS is an Extraordinary ability - no magic involved. It cannot be cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, using it does not provoke. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on this ability. It is not subject to dispelling, and it functions normally in an antimagic field. Indeed, it does not qualify as magical, though it may break the laws of physics.
15. (Modified #5) If Carl has not previously used Stealth and is therefore totally visible and fully observed, he can use his HiPS talent to enable him to use Stealth without first finding Cover or Concealment. This is because HiPS modifies the conditions under which Carl is allowed to attempt his Stealth check.
16. (Modified #6) As with number 15, if Carl first uses HiPS and then uses a move action to find Cover or Concealment, he can attempt a Stealth check. If he succeeds, nobody knows where he went thanks to HiPS. This works just like #8, but using HiPS instead of a diversion.
17. Doing #16 does not provoke.
18. (Modified #2) If Carl uses HiPS and succeeds on a Stealth check and then moves around and ends his turn without Cover or Concealment, he was able to move unseen but at the end of his turn he becomes totally visible and fully observed because rule #2 still applies, even with HiPS. This is because HiPS modifies the conditions under which Carl is allowed to attempt his Stealth check but HiPS does not modify the conditions under which Carl becomes totally visible and fully observed if he fails to find Cover or Concealment.
-or-
19. Doing #18 does not provoke.
20. Doing #18 is identical to doing #16 - they are the same thing. The only difference between #16/#18 and #6 is that #6 uses a diversion which requires a Bluff check (that might fail) while #16/#18 uses HiPS which cannot fail (the Stealth check might fail, but HiPS can be used without any check at all).
21. (Alternate #18) If Carl uses HiPS and succeeds on a Stealth check and then moves around and ends his turn without Cover or Concealment, he cannot use Stealth at all - he is totally visible and fully observed because not only does rule #2 still apply, but if Carl makes no attempt to comply with it during his turn, then he cannot attempt the Stealth check in the first place.
22. Doing #21 does provoke because no Stealth check was actually made.
23. Doing #21 is identical to #2 - both involve ending their turns with no effort being made to find Cover or Concealment which negates the Stealth check (and in Carl's case, causes HiPS to provide no benefit).
-or-
24. (Alternate #18) If Carl uses HiPS and succeeds on a Stealth check and then moves around and ends his turn without Cover or Concealment, he remains hidden because he made his Stealth check and can ignore rule #2. This assumes that HiPS does indeed modify the conditions under which Carl becomes totally visible and fully observed if he fails to find Cover or Concealment even though the ability never says it does.
25. Doing #24 does not provoke.
26. Doing #24 is much like having a skill-based magical on/off switch for using Stealth while observed. It violates #1 and #2 almost like magic even though it is not magic.

Dave is a 17th level Ranger with the Hide in Plain Sight class feature and he IS in his favored terrain.

24. Really, this is exactly like Carl's example with no differences. Well, except that Dave does not actually need Cover or Concealment while he remains in his favored terrain because he also has Camouflage (see Ernesto's example below). It's probably easiest to treat this exactly as if Dave ALWAYS has Concealment in his favored terrain. With that one exception, this works exactly like Carl's example.

Ernesto is a 12th level Ranger with the Camouflage class feature and he IS in his favored terrain.

25. Ernesto can do everything Andy and Bob can do.
26. Camouflage is an Extraordinary ability - no magic involved. It cannot be cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, using it does not provoke. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on this ability. It is not subject to dispelling, and it functions normally in an antimagic field. Indeed, it does not qualify as magical, though it may break the laws of physics.
27. (Modified #1) Ernesto does not need Cover or Concealment to attempt a Stealth check.
28. (Modified #2) If Ernesto moves around and ends his turn without Cover or Concealment, it really does not matter because he is in his favored terrain and therefore does not need Cover or Concealment to attempt a Stealth check - he is totally visible and fully observed unless he makes a Stealth check in which case he is unobserved.
29. (Modified #3) If Ernesto had successfully used Stealth last turn, and that remains unchanged at the start of this turn, he can make a Stealth check to actually move out into "plain sight" but remain hidden as long as he ends his turn with Cover or Concealment or in his favored terrain where he does not need Cover or Concealment.
30. (Unmodified #4) As with #29, if Ernesto had successfully used Stealth last turn, and that remains unchanged at the start of this turn, he can make a Stealth check to actually move out into "plain sight" but remain hidden up until the point that he makes an attack, after which he is totally visible and fully observed.
31. (Modified #5) If Ernesto has not previously used Stealth and is therefore totally visible and fully observed, he can use Stealth without first finding Cover or Concealment because Camouflage allows him to.
32. (Modified #6) As with number 31, if Ernesto does use a move action to find Cover or Concealment or to remain in his favored terrain where he does not need Cover or Concealment, he can attempt a Stealth check, but even if he succeeds, everybody knows where he went - they cannot observe him at this time (he succeeded so the observers failed their Perception checks), but they know where he went.
33. (Unmodified #7) Doing #32 provokes unless the move can be made with a 5'Step.
34. (Modified #8) As with number 31 and 32, if Ernesto first uses Bluff to create a diversion, he can then use a move action to find Cover or Concealment or to remain in his favored terrain where he does not need Cover or Concealment and he can attempt a Stealth check. If he succeeds, nobody knows where he went thanks to the diversion.
35. (Unmodified #9) Doing #34 does not provoke.
36. (Modified #10) The opposite of #29, if Ernesto had successfully used Stealth last turn, and that remains unchanged at the start of this turn, he is NOT allowed to make a Stealth check to actually move out into "plain sight" and use his full turn moving without finding Cover or Concealment or remaining in his favored terrain where he does not need Cover or Concealment, especially not ending his turn with either of those two requirements - doing this means he is totally visible and fully observed throughout his whole movement, no Stealth check is allowed.

Fred is an Assassin with the Hide in Plain Sight class feature. He is within 10' of a shadow.

37. Fred can do everything Andy and Bob can do.
38. Assassin HiPS is a Supernatural ability - that means it is magical. It can't be disrupted in combat and doesn't provoke. It isn't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, but it doesn't function in antimagic areas.
39. In all other ways, Fred's HiPS is identical to Carl's - except for the requirement of using a shadow instead of using favored terrain. (If anyone disagrees with this statement, please identify which of Carl's rules works differently for Fred, and why).

Gomer is a Shadowdancer with the Hide in Plain Sight class feature. He is within 10' of dim light.
40. Gomer can do everything Andy and Bob can do.
41. Assassin HiPS is a Supernatural ability - that means it is magical. It can't be disrupted in combat and doesn't provoke. It isn't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, but it doesn't function in antimagic areas.
42. In all other ways, Gomer's HiPS is identical to Carl's - except for the requirement of using dim light instead of using favored terrain. (If anyone disagrees with this statement, please identify which of Carl's rules works differently for Gomer, and why).

So, where do we all disagree?


Questions:
Way back in 6. If Andy moved into cover or concealment, they can't observe him, so unless someone does follow him and move to where they can see him, he would be able to effectively use Stealth at the beginning of his next turn, right?
Does it matter if he moved into full cover/concealment or just partial?
Also, if he moves into a large area that provides concealment (say Darkness, for example) and does everyone know where within the concealment he is? Does that affect his ability to use stealth?

In summary and in practice though the only version of Hide in Plain Sight that doesn't let you both use stealth while observed and not need specific cover or concealment is the Rogue advanced talent. For the others, any conditions that let you use HiPS to stealth while observed also are treated as providing concealment - either favored terrain or shadow/dim light.

Now, what about Hellcat Stealth? Any other abilities that let you pull off the "use stealth while observed" trick?


I was sure we mostly agreed on this a long time ago. Is someone who is actually known for knowing how the rules work disagreeing with someone else who normally gets the rules correct?


I suspect it's mostly an assumption that the Rogue HiPS works like all the others, combined with the usual confusions about how Stealth and Perception and various kinds of concealment work together.

Silver Crusade

DM Blake In 21 above Carl only has to make 1 stealth check each round while using HIPS,

It does not matter if if has cover and concealment. HIPS is an exception to the stealth rules. IF your stealth check beats all the perception checks of those that can observe you you are effectively invisible that round and as long as you continue to make your stealth roll you may move around each round and it does not matter if you end you move in cover an concealment.

In the above example if Ernesto has Spring attack and HIPS would Ernesto be able to move up to his target attack and spring away and since his target failed to notice him still not be seen by his target?


Lou Diamond wrote:

DM Blake In 21 above Carl only has to make 1 stealth check each round while using HIPS,

It does not matter if if has cover and concealment. HIPS is an exception to the stealth rules. IF your stealth check beats all the perception checks of those that can observe you you are effectively invisible that round and as long as you continue to make your stealth roll you may move around each round and it does not matter if you end you move in cover an concealment.

Carl has the rogue version of Hide in Plain Sight, which unlike the others doesn't specify not needing cover or concealment, just that it lets you make a check while observed.

That's because it piggybacks off the Ranger version, but the Ranger already has Camouflage, which lets him ignore the need for cover or concealment, but the Rogue doesn't get Camouflage.


6. You need to make a distinction between full and partial cover/concealment. Further, people only know the last place they saw the individual before they obtained full cover/concealment.

7. Does this need being said? Movement provokes as normal.

8/9. It's important to note that Bluff may only work versus a single target (it's not clear, imho) and also doesn't alleviate you from possible AoOs from movement.

10. Did you mistype something here? If you're in Stealth at the start of your turn, you can leave it and gain the advantages of Stealth until the end of your turn. (ie, you can walk out and Sneak Attack someone)

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15. This is incorrect. Hide in Plain Sight does not alter the requirement to have cover/concealment. You still need it.

16. This is incorrect. While HiPS lets you use stealth while being observed, it doesn't change the fact that you ARE being observed.

17. It may or may not provoke. You use the standard rules for movement provocation.

18. This is just totally wrong. See above points.

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19. Moot, since number 18 is done incorrectly.

20. Incorrect. As mentioned, HiPS does not stop people from observing you like the use of Bluff. It allows you to stealth WHILE being observed.

21/22/23. You can't use Stealth in the first place, with or without HiPS, if you don't have cover/concealment.

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24. While you're right about Dave's situation, it is actually very different from Carl's. Because Carl doesn't have Camouflage, he is unable to stealth in many places that Dave can.

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31/32. Incorrect. If Ernesto is being observed, he cannot use Stealth despite having Camouflage. He can, as you point out, use Bluff to create a diversion enabling him to hide, but this may be limited to a single target.

36. Again, if you start your turn in Stealth, you are allow to move out with stealth and attack.

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37-42. These are correct, but note because your analysis of what Carl can do is wrong, these errors also need to be taken into account here. Btw, I recall a paizo post somewhere saying that the Assassin and Shadowdancer light requirements should actually be the same.


Byakko, for 15-23, what do you mean by "While HiPS lets you use stealth while being observed, it doesn't change the fact that you ARE being observed"?

If I'm using stealth while being observed, due to HiPS, but everyone is still observing me, what's the advantage of HiPS?


thejeff:

Say you're watching/observing a rogue standing in the open who has HiPS:

A) There is a nearby tall and large wall. The rogue can move behind the wall and hide. Because you are observing him, you know he went behind the wall, although you may not know where he went after that. This is the same for a rogue without HiPS... so HiPS isn't helping in this situation.

B) Some light mist arrives on the scene, granting the rogue 20% concealment. Despite being observed, the rogue can use HiPS and make a stealth check. If he succeeds, he enters stealth and you lose sight of him. You are now no longer observing him, not because of HiPS, but because he has stealth relative to you.
For contrast, a rogue without HiPS would not be able to use stealth in the first place, because he is still being observed despite the partial concealment. This rogue would first need to stop being observed, such as via the distraction bluff check, in order to hide in the mist.


The quibble I have with #9 is only that the movement still provokes, they simply can't capitalize on that opportunity.

Quote:
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.

Maybe I make too much of an inference, but if a diversion makes an opponent "unaware" and the only definition we have is from stealth

Quote:
Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment.

Then the diversion should also grant total concealment.

This distinction is less of an issue if you consider the stealth roll effective from the start of movement instead of entrance to actual cover/concealment since it no longer requires an inference.


Archaeik wrote:

The quibble I have with #9 is only that the movement still provokes, they simply can't capitalize on that opportunity.

Quote:
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.

Maybe I make too much of an inference, but if a diversion makes an opponent "unaware" and the only definition we have is from stealth

Quote:
Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment.

Then the diversion should also grant total concealment.

This distinction is less of an issue if you consider the stealth roll effective from the start of movement instead of entrance to actual cover/concealment since it no longer requires an inference.
Quote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

From my reading, you don't actually enter stealth until you reach the cover/concealment. Bluff just lets you break the "observed" state enabling you to use stealth with less than total cover/concealment. I don't believe being momentarily distracted prevents one from taking AoOs. Admittedly, the description is fairly vague about when exactly you count as obtaining stealth during this process. There are significant rules oddities whichever way you do it.


There are too many points in this. It would be better if it was broken up over a series of threads.


wraithstrike wrote:
There are too many points in this. It would be better if it was broken up over a series of threads.

While I agree they will never use this thread as a basis for a FAQ, the issue is more strictly the number and variety of abilities either named or that function like HiPS. (so it's not particularly our fault that the number of questions snowball)

It really needs another blog since there seems to be a fair amount of disconnect between name and RAW functionality in a few cases.
It would also be a great opportunity to clear up if certain elements intentionally function differently from each other (even if that never makes it into true errata).


Dot de dot dot dot.


Even number 1 is technically wrong.

actual stealth rules wrote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth

From this do not need both concealment/cover to hide. It simply is a method that allows you to not be observed, which is the prerequisite for attempting stealth.

It should be "1. Andy needs to stop being observed to attempt a Stealth check."


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Milo v3 wrote:

Even number 1 is technically wrong.

actual stealth rules wrote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth

From this do not need both concealment/cover to hide. It simply is a method that allows you to not be observed, which is the prerequisite for attempting stealth.

It should be "1. Andy needs to stop being observed to attempt a Stealth check."

Yeah, but if you go down that road, you open the door for many debates.

Can the enemy smell Andy (with or without the Scent ability)?
Can the enemy hear Andy (even the faintest whisper of breath or scuff of shoe)?
Can the enemy feel the breeze as air moves around Andy while he's sneaking around?

There really are no rules for most of that kind of stuff, other than a Perception check. And what's the DC? The opposed Stealth check, that's what.

Which creates a paradox: The enemy might be "observing" Andy with a non-visual sense. If he is, Andy CANNOT make a Stealth check. How do I find out if the enemy is observing Andy? Have Andy make a Stealth check to oppose that enemy's Perception - but that's a Stealth check he may or may not be able to make.

Is this Schrödinger's Stealth?

So, since I have zero non-paradoxical rules to apply all these other senses, I am left only with the rules given in the combat section about determining Cover and/or determining Concealment. Those rules operate without paradox and can very quickly determine whether Stealth may be attempted or not.

Which means that, "observing" becomes limited to "typically sight", if for no other reason than the lack of methods to determine "observing" with any other senses.


Lou Diamond wrote:

DM Blake In 21 above Carl only has to make 1 stealth check each round while using HIPS,

It does not matter if if has cover and concealment. HIPS is an exception to the stealth rules. IF your stealth check beats all the perception checks of those that can observe you you are effectively invisible that round and as long as you continue to make your stealth roll you may move around each round and it does not matter if you end you move in cover an concealment.

Well, that is why #21 and #24 are alternate versions of rule #18. You really only get to pick one of them since they are essentially multiple choice:

A) HiPS works for the turn but Carl becomes visible at the end of his turn unless Cover or Concealment is found
B) HiPS works for the turn but only if Cover or Concealment is found before the end of the turn - failing to do so invalidates the whole turn's worth of HiPS
C) HiPS works no matter what Carl does, just click the HiPS "ON" switch and make the Stealth check no matter who or what is watching.

They're all mutually exclusive.

By your post, I assume you prefer option "C" which is #24 in the original post, therefore rejecting #18 and #21. Correct?


DM_Blake wrote:
Yeah, but if you go down that road, you open the door for many debates.

Except it's the direct rules. Anything you say that goes against it, is houserules, simple as that.

Quote:
Can the enemy smell Andy (with or without the Scent ability)?

Yes. Range of how far most can smell makes that very unlikely though in most cases.

Quote:
Can the enemy hear Andy (even the faintest whisper of breath or scuff of shoe)?

Yes. Perception rolls would be necessary though.

Quote:
Can the enemy feel the breeze as air moves around Andy while he's sneaking around?

No.

Quote:
And what's the DC? The opposed Stealth check, that's what.

Stealth Check + modifiers

Quote:
Which creates a paradox: The enemy might be "observing" Andy with a non-visual sense. If he is, Andy CANNOT make a Stealth check. How do I find out if the enemy is observing Andy? Have Andy make a Stealth check to oppose that enemy's Perception - but that's a Stealth check he may or may not be able to make.

The point is so that if your detected through blindsight or tremorsense, you can't stealth. It's not really hard to understand....


wraithstrike wrote:
There are too many points in this. It would be better if it was broken up over a series of threads.

I agree. I find it really hard to read thru this and keep referring back up to prior points you make when giving examples for each of the various HiPS variants. I appreciate the time & effort to illustrate each of the HiPS versions, though!

It would also serve to have the relevant text from the Stealth rules posted because that's where the disagreements are arising. What constitutes "being observed"? What qualifies as cover/concealment? How does HiPS alter or interact with the RAW?

And obviously part of this is a RAW vs RAI debate. What is the intention of the HiPS ability? I'm coming around to: "it gives the PC a chance to escape" i.e., it allows them to enter Stealth while being observed but they must complete their round in cover/concealment. But does Blur constitute enough concealment that they could end their turn in the open?

My Shadowdancer player, of course, wants it to work like a form of invisibility so that he can re-enter Stealth and then Sneak Attack again and again. I want it to be a cool ability, but not abused as an unlimited invisibility. For me, allowing it to be used for him to escape, to disappear even in an empty room from all observers, seems like it captures that while preventing him from stalking up to a foe in that same empty room and sneak attacking again.


Otherwhere wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
There are too many points in this. It would be better if it was broken up over a series of threads.

I agree. I find it really hard to read thru this and keep referring back up to prior points you make when giving examples for each of the various HiPS variants. I appreciate the time & effort to illustrate each of the HiPS versions, though!

It would also serve to have the relevant text from the Stealth rules posted because that's where the disagreements are arising. What constitutes "being observed"? What qualifies as cover/concealment? How does HiPS alter or interact with the RAW?

And obviously part of this is a RAW vs RAI debate. What is the intention of the HiPS ability? I'm coming around to: "it gives the PC a chance to escape" i.e., it allows them to enter Stealth while being observed but they must complete their round in cover/concealment. But does Blur constitute enough concealment that they could end their turn in the open?

My Shadowdancer player, of course, wants it to work like a form of invisibility so that he can re-enter Stealth and then Sneak Attack again and again. I want it to be a cool ability, but not abused as an unlimited invisibility. For me, allowing it to be used for him to escape, to disappear even in an empty room from all observers, seems like it captures that while preventing him from stalking up to a foe in that same empty room and sneak attacking again.

Part of the problem is that there are at least 3 seperate "Hide in Plain Sight" abilities. As I read it, your Shadowdancer should be able to do so -
Quote:
As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.

That's not as clear as the Ranger's camouflage ability, but implies the same thing - that the Shadowdancer always has concealment within 10' of dim light.

A Rogue with the advanced talent on the other hand, gets the Ranger's version, but doesn't get camouflage. She can use stealth while being observed in a favored terrain, but has to be in some real cover or concealment to do so.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

wraithstrike wrote:
There are too many points in this. It would be better if it was broken up over a series of threads.

TLDR OP.

Not going to.

Neither will the FAQ "panel".

This isn't serving a purpose.

OP should make a couple simple to the point 1 line posts/questions.


I think the idea of this thread is to figure out what things are ambiguous or disputed, so we know what questions need to be asked.


James Risner wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
There are too many points in this. It would be better if it was broken up over a series of threads.

TLDR OP.

Not going to.

Neither will the FAQ "panel".

This isn't serving a purpose.

OP should make a couple simple to the point 1 line posts/questions.

I never said I was trying to get a FAQ. I know how that system works; this post wasn't for the PDT to respond (though of course I'd love it if they did, but that was not my intent).

In any case, if you won't read it, then don't bother posting, either. The only thing here that doesn't serve a purpose is posting here saying "I didn't read your post so it serves no purpose." You didn't read it, how would you know?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

HiPS lets you Hide in plain sight.

it overrides the specific stipulation that you cannot be stealthed while observed. This represents a skill that is not possible to someone in our world, he is far more skilled at hiding than any human than ever existed at this point.

It is not magical it is simple extraordinary, and like the definition of that word, remarkable, it is something that a normal person cannot do.

so @ 26, he stealths and is not observed during that round. even if you think he would be obvious he has somehow avoided their attention, even if he is perfectly visible.

just look at hellcat stealth, it allows you to stealth while observed in bright light, with the only fluff being you're hard to see in the light.


Bandw2 wrote:

HiPS lets you Hide in plain sight.

it overrides the specific stipulation that you cannot be stealthed while observed. This represents a skill that is not possible to someone in our world, he is far more skilled at hiding than any human than ever existed at this point.

It is not magical it is simple extraordinary, and like the definition of that word, remarkable, it is something that a normal person cannot do.

I think most people agree with that. Not all, but most. It's a question of: does it allow you to remain "out in the open" and remain hidden, or do you need to move to cover/acquire concealment?

I agree with you on the whole: it's fantasy. There's no point in trying to figure out a reasonable ("real world") way someone can do this. It's an Extraordinary of Supernatural ability, and not supposed to be reflective of what a normal person can do.

But it's coming to an agreement or clarification that most people can agree with that is the purpose of DM_Blake's thread. There are segments of the rules that aren't clear, incomplete, etc., and beg for this kind of debate.


Otherwhere wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

HiPS lets you Hide in plain sight.

it overrides the specific stipulation that you cannot be stealthed while observed. This represents a skill that is not possible to someone in our world, he is far more skilled at hiding than any human than ever existed at this point.

It is not magical it is simple extraordinary, and like the definition of that word, remarkable, it is something that a normal person cannot do.

I think most people agree with that. Not all, but most. It's a question of: does it allow you to remain "out in the open" and remain hidden, or do you need to move to cover/acquire concealment?

As I read it, you don't need to move. If you can use HiPS, you are already in a place where you have C/C. Within 10' of dim light, if you're a Shadowdancer or Assassin. Within your favored terrain, which grants you c/c through camoflage, if you're a ranger. Or you already need to be in some standard c/c if you're a rogue.


^This has been how I've been treating it, but I was not aware of all the other "Stealth rules" stipulations at the time. Now I'm leaning the other way: it allows you to enter, but not maintain, Stealth while observed.

Not attached. Just want something that I can live with and still makes it worth my PC's taking or having as a class feature.


Bandw2 wrote:

HiPS lets you Hide in plain sight.

it overrides the specific stipulation that you cannot be stealthed while observed. This represents a skill that is not possible to someone in our world, he is far more skilled at hiding than any human than ever existed at this point.

But is that really true?

We're talking about the skill system, not the magic system.

Being "extraordinary", by definition, means you're better than ordinary people. It does not mean you have transcended the capabilities of all mankind. Eric Clapton is an extraordinary musician, but that's just a skill and other extraordinary musicians can play the guitar just as well - Eric Clapton is NOT so good that his guitar skill has reached a level "that is not possible to someone in our world". That is not what "extraordinary" means.

So I do not believe that someone who is merely using ANY skill, even in an extraordinary way, is using it in a way that "represents a skill that is not possible to someone in our world".

You need magic for that.

Bandw2 wrote:
It is not magical it is simple extraordinary, and like the definition of that word, remarkable, it is something that a normal person cannot do.

Yes, now I agree with this, which completely contradicts the first half of your same post. It is simply "extraordinary", it is "remarkable", and it is "something that a normal person cannot do" - but it is definitely NOT something that transcends the ability of all mankind.

For example, no amount of skill ranks in Climb will let a normal human walk up a wall or stand on the ceiling - you need Spider Climb (magic) for that. No amount of skill ranks in Swim will let a normal human walk on the surface of a lake or stay submerged for an hour - You need Water Walk (magic) or Water Breathing (magic) for these things. And no amount of ranks in Stealth will let you disappear while standing in front of someone watching you - you need Invisibility (magic) for that.

HiPS is a better (extraordinary) way to apply your ranks in Stealth, but it is still just a skill. It is, by RAW definition, not magic (except the shadowy versions which are).


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I believe the RAI is that you no longer care about "being observed" in relation to stealth. such that like an empty room with dim light, even with pure white walls and a guy wearing a black jumpsuit, he's still not seen.

Scarab Sages

Relevant post by SKR on extraordinary vs supernatural abilities.

This is not binding, but extraordinary does mean you have transcended the capabilities of normal mankind.

For game balance purposes, the EX/SU divide is meaningless, and denying EX abilities the ability to do extraordinary things is just a screw you to players.


PRD wrote:
Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

It's a little different when we say that HiPS is an extraordinary ability. Or Supernatural, because the game system defines them as either (Ex) or (Su)- some are one, some the other.

HiPS as written does allow you to enter Stealth while people are observing you. It's not just having high Stealth ranks, but is an actual ability that allows you to do this, over and above your ranks in the Skill.


DM_Blake wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

HiPS lets you Hide in plain sight.

it overrides the specific stipulation that you cannot be stealthed while observed. This represents a skill that is not possible to someone in our world, he is far more skilled at hiding than any human than ever existed at this point.

But is that really true?

We're talking about the skill system, not the magic system.

Being "extraordinary", by definition, means you're better than ordinary people. It does not mean you have transcended the capabilities of all mankind. Eric Clapton is an extraordinary musician, but that's just a skill and other extraordinary musicians can play the guitar just as well - Eric Clapton is NOT so good that his guitar skill has reached a level "that is not possible to someone in our world". That is not what "extraordinary" means.

So I do not believe that someone who is merely using ANY skill, even in an extraordinary way, is using it in a way that "represents a skill that is not possible to someone in our world".

You need magic for that.

Bandw2 wrote:
It is not magical it is simple extraordinary, and like the definition of that word, remarkable, it is something that a normal person cannot do.

Yes, now I agree with this, which completely contradicts the first half of your same post. It is simply "extraordinary", it is "remarkable", and it is "something that a normal person cannot do" - but it is definitely NOT something that transcends the ability of all mankind.

For example, no amount of skill ranks in Climb will let a normal human walk up a wall or stand on the ceiling - you need Spider Climb (magic) for that. No amount of skill ranks in Swim will let a normal human walk on the surface of a lake or stay submerged for an hour - You need Water Walk (magic) or Water Breathing (magic) for these things. And no amount of ranks in Stealth will let you disappear while standing in front of someone watching you - you need Invisibility (magic) for that.

HiPS is a better (extraordinary) way to apply your ranks in Stealth, but it is still just a skill. It is, by RAW definition, not magic (except the shadowy versions which are).

Are you saying that abilities don't allow you to do what they say they do, just because they're not "magic" and you don't think normal people should be able to do that?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I just find that he lost track of you until the end of the turn more implausible and un-game-friendly than him losing track of you until the end of the round.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

obligatory martials can't have nice things.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

for reference if i had an Ex ability that allowed a human to fly, it would work fine yeah? I assume most people would say he grew wings or something. so why can't HiPS give you chameleon powers or some such?


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Bandw2 wrote:
for reference if i had an Ex ability that allowed a human to fly, it would work fine yeah? I assume most people would say he grew wings or something. so why can't HiPS give you chameleon powers or some such?

You really think that's it? HiPS turns you, your clothes, your boots, your armor, your sword, and all your bling, into a chameleon? Without magic?


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I don't think we need to figure out HOW it's done. It can be done. We simply have to agree on how it works.


Otherwhere wrote:
I don't think we need to figure out HOW it's done. It can be done. We simply have to agree on how it works.

Agreed.

Apparently the first point of disagreement seems to be whether or not HiPS trashes the Stealth rules or works with them.


DM_Blake wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
I don't think we need to figure out HOW it's done. It can be done. We simply have to agree on how it works.

Agreed.

Apparently the first point of disagreement seems to be whether or not HiPS trashes the Stealth rules or works with them.

Well, kudos to you for being the one to get this thing going. Seriously, man, I respect your rules expertise. It's based on your threads that I've swung toward limiting HiPS application.

Really, HiPS's main change is simply the "can't enter Stealth when being observed" to "can enter Stealth while being observed." Beyond that...?

For me, the sticking point is: does HiPS Stealth require ongoing cover/concealment? If I don't need cover/concealment to enter it (with the varying provisos about "within 10' of dim light", etc.), do I need C/C at all, ever? That I simply am not clear on.

To be consistent, I can see an argument for "no - no C/C is needed, ever." Which then makes HiPS a form of invisibility, without everything that Invisibility has going for it.

If it doesn't forgo the need to find C/C by the end of your movement, if it only lets you start the Stealth process, then that's much more reasonable, but lacks some consistency in the "how is this accomplished" question. Which is silly because it's fantasy.


Shadow dancer HIPS is different, it gets rid of both the observed and cover/concealment clauses.

Ranger HIPS is different because you can only HIPS in your favored terrain , where you also ignore the cover/concealment clause

The intent is for it just to be a stealth roll to hide anywhere anytime, but the rules don't get you there.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

so hellcat stealth works in antimagic fields, that doesn't use magic either but allows you to do stealth checks, why doesn't HiPS?

also my point is the RAI (which i always find more important) is that you get to steal in plain sight. your terrain is the concealment, your near by shadow is the concealment.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

DM_Blake wrote:
wasn't for the PDT to respond

Ok sorry.

I think I can sum it up in a few words.

HiPS lets you make a Stealh check when you normally couldn't. In the ability it either states what is required or defaults to cover/concealment if nothing is stated.

Rogue Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) needs Ranger Terrain to be present.
Ranger Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) needs Ranger Terrain to be present.
Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight (Su) needs dim light to be present.
Assassin Hide in Plain Sight (Su) needs a shadow to be present.
Lion Blade Hide in Plain Sight (Su) needs a shadow to be present.
Cult Leader Hide in Plain Sight (Su) needs dim light to be present.

Prior to looking this up, I didn't realize all of them have working similar to this. So all of them require the terrain or feature to be present. So I can't find one that uses the default understanding.


James Risner wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
wasn't for the PDT to respond

Ok sorry.

I think I can sum it up in a few words.

HiPS lets you make a Stealh check when you normally couldn't. In the ability it either states what is required or defaults to cover/concealment if nothing is stated.

Rogue Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) needs Ranger Terrain to be present.
Ranger Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) needs Ranger Terrain to be present.
Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight (Su) needs dim light to be present.
Assassin Hide in Plain Sight (Su) needs a shadow to be present.
Lion Blade Hide in Plain Sight (Su) needs a shadow to be present.
Cult Leader Hide in Plain Sight (Su) needs dim light to be present.

Prior to looking this up, I didn't realize all of them have working similar to this. So all of them require the terrain or feature to be present. So I can't find one that uses the default understanding.

The only difference is that the Rogue version, while you must be in your favored terrain, doesn't let you use that terrain as cover/concealment, since you don't get the Ranger's camouflage. Exactly what that means for the poor rogue is the main matter of debate - Can he make his stealth check in the open then move into c/c? Can he make his stealth check in the open then stay in the open and attack? Does he have to be in c/c to use Stealth at all?

I'm leaning towards the last. All HiPS gives him is the ability to do so when already observed. It still lets him vanish if the area is all concealment - dim light or underbrush for example.


Why do people even think cover/concealment is even required?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Milo v3 wrote:
Why do people even think cover/concealment is even required?

Probably because Stealth requires it. It seems all the HiPS I could find provided the ability to do the Hide (when normally you couldn't) and a terrain you can hide while inside.


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James Risner wrote:


Probably because Stealth requires it.

Actually, it says "If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth."

Cover/Concealment is not required, it is just the easiest method of making it so you are not observed.


Milo, you know, you may be right.

I have been taking for granted that cover/concealment is required, but maybe it isn't. It *IS* heavily implied, but perhaps the rules simply assume you need it in order to break observation, and thus things are often worded around that.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

it basically means you have to not be sensed, gaining cover is how you get to not be sensed by like 90% of the bestiary.

thus WHY I KEEP SAYING HIPS LETS YOU STEALTH WHILE OBSERVED! EVEN WITH BLINDSENSE!

Silver Crusade

HIPS is a level 12 EX version of invisibility. if you don't get it until level 12 it should not be subject to something a 1st level character can do IF you are a Ranger you can only use HIPS in one of you favored terrains you have several by level 12.

Those of you who are saying that you have to have cover or concealment to use HIPS are inferring something in HIPS that is not there. The reason that you make a stealth check while using HIPS is that there is a small chance that someone might see you because HIPS is an EX ability not a magic [Spell or Sell like Ability] it does not say that you have to use stealth rules ie cover and concealment just that you have to make a stealth check. IMO the HIPS for rogues and slayers needs to be changed to the HIPS from Legendary Rogues that is the cleanest version of HIPS that I have seen.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): A rogue with this talent is a master of
disappearance. She can use the Stealth skill to hide even while
being observed. The rogue must have a feat or skill specialty that
grants a bonus on Stealth checks and be at least 12th level before
selecting this talent.

Shadow Dancers corner ability because it is an SU ability with different rules that is just called HIPS, it just another instance of several different things being called the same thing that are in fact different things all together.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Bandw2 wrote:
EVEN WITH BLINDSENSE!

Ok, while they may be hidden from view anyone with blindsense or blindsight will know what square they are in.

Lou Diamond wrote:

IPS from Legendary Rogues that is the cleanest version of HIPS that I have seen.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): A rogue with this talent is a master of
disappearance. She can use the Stealth skill to hide even while
being observed. The rogue must have a feat or skill specialty that
grants a bonus on Stealth checks and be at least 12th level before
selecting this talent.

Actually this is probably the one I kept thinking existed but couldn't find it. This one as written requires cover or concealment. So if by clean you mean unambiguously allows you to poof, we don't agree.

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