|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Am I able to make the free action attack granted by casting a touch attack spell during a move action?
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
My first action in a given round is casting a touch spell. It would seem that If I am able to perform free actions during other actions, I should be able to make use of my free action attack during a move action. For example, walking 10' toward my target, making my free action touch attack, and then walking 10' away from my target.
The phrase "You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target." does not disqualify this notion, but gives players an idea of the options available.
You can do that, but your movement will draw an AOO.
no, you haven't taken your move action if you're still in your move action. So it has to be all done before touching or after touching.
Have you not made all your arguments in the last 24 hours in this thread?
I don't think a separate thread is needed, as the subject is within the original scope of the discussion of the original thread.
and you already had plenty of people tell you no it wouldn't work, in that other thread.
I've just realised that I have posted three times in rules threads Shieldlawrence. Apologies if it looks like I'm on your back mate. I'll back off for a bit. Tried to send a private message but you don't have a profile.
Have a Happy New Year everyone.
|
|
no, you haven't taken your move action if you're still in your move action. So it has to be all done before touching or after touching.
I would argue that I have taken my move action as soon as I begin moving. The rules do not state this "all done" or "whole move action" as requirements for touch spells in combat.
the rules state you can take your move after your spell and before the touch. take is done with, otherwise you're taking. Them listing these options as to when you can take this specific free action was meant to show when you could. This wasn't written in rule speech but common speech. Common speech shows you can move before, after, and in between, they've conveyed their goal. Breaking that goal because "it doesn't say I can't" probably wasn't their intention.
|
|
I don't think a separate thread is needed, as the subject is within the original scope of the discussion of the original thread.
I created this thread before the the idea was taken to the other thread.
@TheSword: I appreciate the sentiment. Based on our usernames, it would appear we were meant to clang against one another.
Ha Ha. Like it. You've see the shield bash feat I'm sure : p
|
|
the rules state you can take your move after your spell and before the touch. take is done with, otherwise you're taking. Them listing these options as to when you can take this specific free action was meant to show when you could. This wasn't written in rule speech but common speech. Common speech shows you can move before, after, and in between, they've conveyed their goal. Breaking that goal because "it doesn't say I can't" probably wasn't their intention.
I honestly disagree with you concerning intention.
I think that the intent of them listing the options was to give players reading the rules an idea what is possible, as some would automatically believe that you have to take the free action attack right after casting the spell.
Has anyone seen any posts by designers, etc, that show their intent with this?
I think this is a case of specific trumps general. In general you can take free actions in the middle of move actions (want to move 10ft, drop your weapon, and finish moving 20ft? Go for it). In this case however, it limits you to taking your move either before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. The grammar of the sentence excludes all other possibilities, including the possibility of doing it in the middle of a move.
(Our difference here is how we interpret "You may take your move" -- to me that is prescribing the options for how one may move, any option not listed is not allowed. The listing does not indicate it is not-exhaustive, such as by stating "for example" in the front. Therefore the list is exhaustive by default. As an analogy, if I tell you "You may order soup or salad with this dish." when the menu lists a bunch of soups, salads, and other sides, that doesn't mean you get to order a side dish; it means you get to order a soup or salad. Despite the fact other options exist and may be valid choices for other things, it doesn't mean they are valid for this one thing.)
|
|
I think this is a case of specific trumps general. In general you can take free actions in the middle of move actions (want to move 10ft, drop your weapon, and finish moving 20ft? Go for it). In this case however, it limits you to taking your move either before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. The grammar of the sentence excludes all other possibilities, including the possibility of doing it in the middle of a move.
You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.
The grammar of the sentence allows ("you may") you to take the free action in the examples. It doesn't restrict you in any way. It doesnt say I must take it under those conditions.
Where is the limit/exclusion?
You MAY order a soup or a salad with this dish. This still excluded other side dishes from being ordered.
You're not forced to take a move action when you cast a touch spell. But if you're wanting to you may do it in one of the three ways.
|
|
(Our difference here is how we interpret "You may take your move" -- to me that is prescribing the options for how one may move, any option not listed is not allowed. The listing does not indicate it is not-exhaustive, such as by stating "for example" in the front. Therefore the list is exhaustive by default. As an analogy, if I tell you "You may order soup or salad with this dish." when the menu lists a bunch of soups, salads, and other sides, that doesn't mean you get to order a side dish; it means you get to order a soup or salad. Despite the fact other options exist and may be valid choices for other things, it doesn't mean they are valid for this one thing.)
Yes, we disagree on how to interpret "You may..."
I don't think you analogy is a good fit, as the free action touch attack is still a free action. What about this?
Your deluxe gym membership: Lockers may be rented for $2.
On the Lockerroom Wall: Lockers are $1 for the first day and $3 thereafter.
Must I spend $2 on the first day with my deluxe membership?
I think this is a case of specific trumps general. In general you can take free actions in the middle of move actions (want to move 10ft, drop your weapon, and finish moving 20ft? Go for it). In this case however, it limits you to taking your move either before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. The grammar of the sentence excludes all other possibilities, including the possibility of doing it in the middle of a move.
(Our difference here is how we interpret "You may take your move" -- to me that is prescribing the options for how one may move, any option not listed is not allowed. The listing does not indicate it is not-exhaustive, such as by stating "for example" in the front. Therefore the list is exhaustive by default. As an analogy, if I tell you "You may order soup or salad with this dish." when the menu lists a bunch of soups, salads, and other sides, that doesn't mean you get to order a side dish; it means you get to order a soup or salad. Despite the fact other options exist and may be valid choices for other things, it doesn't mean they are valid for this one thing.)
You said everything I wanted to say, but much more clearly.
Yes, we disagree on how to interpret "You may..."
I agree that the quoted rules is a list of possible actions. The move is not required, thus the phrase "you may".
If you looks at the other cases that allow movement before and after an attack, they are very clear about it. Look at spring attack feat, ride-by feat, or the Bladed Dash spell. They include wording that makes it very clear that this is allowed.
There is no such wording for Touch Attacks.
When there are two possible interpretations of the rules, it is generally best to go with the simpler and more direct meaning. In this case, it would be that you can not make the touch attack in the midst of a move.
|
You're getting hung up on "free action". "Attack" is the limiting factor here, not "free action". If you were trying to yell an insult at the enemy during you move action, that's OK. But you are trying to say that you can make an attack, during a move. And that is clearly not allowed.
Now, if you are targeting an ally, I think you have a case. After all, communal spells require you to touch several allies. But again, making attacks are usually limited.
Now there are still ways to break touch attacks. Just look up chill touch. Add some dazing meta magic, natural attacks, and reach, and you have yourself a nice way to bend that action economy in your favor.
You're getting hung up on "free action". "Attack" is the limiting factor here, not "free action". If you were trying to yell an insult at the enemy during you move action, that's OK. But you are trying to say that you can make an attack, during a move. And that is clearly not allowed.
Now, if you are targeting an ally, I think you have a case. After all, communal spells require you to touch several allies. But again, making attacks are usually limited.
Now there are still ways to break touch attacks. Just look up chill touch. Add some dazing meta magic, natural attacks, and reach, and you have yourself a nice way to bend that action economy in your favor.
It clearly is allowed. The attack is a free action and thus follows all the rules of free actions. The rules for touch spells explicitly refer to that attack as a free action
|
|
You're getting hung up on "free action". "Attack" is the limiting factor here, not "free action". If you were trying to yell an insult at the enemy during you move action, that's OK. But you are trying to say that you can make an attack, during a move. And that is clearly not allowed.
It is not clear. Free actions are free actions. There is nothing stating that "Attack" is a limiting factor. It remains a free action.
If I had a class ability allowing to make a free action attack during my turn, I'd be able to take it during a move, during a swift, during a standard, or in between any combination of them.
The question is whether the free action touch attack granted by touch spells can be taken during a move action.
Touch spells aren't always cast as standard actions, and move actions aren't the only actions I can take (and potentially use a free action during), so why would an incomplete list be given as restrictive? Cast (swift), move, move/touch falls under the list of actions, and must be unquestionably valid. Other combinations don't include move actions but still allow movement, like cast (swift) spring attack, cast (swift) charge, etc.
This opposing reading of the rules is needlessly restrictive.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The question is whether the free action touch attack granted by touch spells can be taken during a move action.
Yes, this is the question, but the answer is no.
Look at the text under the spring attack feat:
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.
You're trying to say that this rule does not apply because you are making the attack as a free action.
-------------
Still not convinced? Let's take a look at the rule you are quoting. Here's the whole section:
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
Some combat options are free actions meant to be combined with an attack. Often, these are feats with specific limitations defined within the feat—for example, Cleaving Finish gives you an extra melee attack, but only after you make an attack that drops a foe.
This is a case of a free action meant to be combined with an attack. After all, it is a "touch attack" you are making. So the general rules for attacks must apply, namely that you can't make an attack in the middle of a move action.
-------------
Still not convinced? Consider the Magus:
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell.
If your interpretation is taken, the a 2nd level magus effectively has spring attack when using spell strike.
-------------
It clearly is allowed. The attack is a free action and thus follows all the rules of free actions. The rules for touch spells explicitly refer to that attack as a free action
It's a free action and attack, so it must follow rules for both. You can't just disregard rules when the action type changes, or you could invoke the clause saying that you can take any number of free actions per turn and make large number of touch attacks because hey, they are free actions, so no other rules apply.
|
|
Spring Attacks text is considering normal attacks, which are not normally free actions.
This isn't a free action being combined with an attack. That quotation is referring to Power Attack and the like.
The Magus doesn't magically avoid AoOs using this option. It Isn't Spring Attack.
The rules for attacking don't say it can't happen during other actions. The rules for action types (standard, full round, etc) say that.
if the "You may" line didn't exist, no one would argue about doing it during a move. The "You may" is the crux of the issue. Nothing else.
|
I think this is a case of specific trumps general. In general you can take free actions in the middle of move actions (want to move 10ft, drop your weapon, and finish moving 20ft? Go for it). In this case however, it limits you to taking your move either before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. The grammar of the sentence excludes all other possibilities, including the possibility of doing it in the middle of a move.You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.The grammar of the sentence allows ("you may") you to take the free action in the examples. It doesn't restrict you in any way. It doesnt say I must take it under those conditions.
Where is the limit/exclusion?
You have already got plenty of replies to your idea that may is permissive in that rule. It is permissive only between the choice that are given to you, it not allow you to select choices outside the list given in rule.
I get the impression that you aren't a native English speaker and that in your native language "may" way more specific that in English.
All I will say on the subject here is that when it comes to rules disputes, the majority interpretation is generally a safer interpretation of how something functions.
Without further obvious clarification I would go with the more conservative or majority stance to avoid problems. Then ask your GM or in PFS ask each GM at the beginning of play. But don't plan your build based around the concept without getting their ruling on it first.
|
|
All I will say on the subject here is that when it comes to rules disputes, the majority interpretation is generally a safer interpretation of how something functions.
Without further obvious clarification I would go with the more conservative or majority stance to avoid problems. Then ask your GM or in PFS ask each GM at the beginning of play. But don't plan your build based around the concept without getting their ruling on it first.
Sound advice. I wouldn't ever try to build around this, it just gives touch spells more flexibility in combat which can be nice for anything that casts them.