Here's the deal: I'm running a bones oracle in PFS. Full caster, like playing him, but there's one big problem: I can't take on swarms or monsters with crazy DR for crap.
Now I know people will say you can easily buy items for this and such, but the problem is, because my oracle is haunted, using items in combat is super risky business because it will take two turns at least. I found this out the hard way when I played a scenario that involved a swarm of bats, and even though I had a torch and alchemist fires it didn't matter because the swarm got to me before I could use them and kept nauseating my character so I could do nothing but fall out of the boat and hope they went away.
Then there's the problem of dealing with creatures with DR. You see, my guy really isn't much for melee combat and while I can use weapons, I can't really do much damage, especially compared to the people I usually play with. I don't really have access to any blasting spells either; most of my DPR comes from the skeletons I summon with Raise the Dead, which, of course, can't pierce DR, unless I were to use a scroll of magic fang on them or something, which would take three rounds to do.
Some of my friends suggest using scrolls of Gust of Wind for the swarms, but I'm still hesitant even though I have a pretty good UMD score, if only for the fact that it would take two rounds at best, and apparently Scrollboxes don't help with this. This seems to be the general problem with all item-use scenarios, and it really bugs me given PFS's whole "you have no one to rely upon but yourself" thing (a bit of an exaggeration, but that's the feel it exudes, especially when you don't know who will end up in your party).
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1. Welcome to the disadvantages of Haunted.
2. Give your undead servants two-handed weapons or vials of alchemists fire.
Put emergency wands in those springloaded wrist sheath things.
Artanthos wrote: 1. Welcome to the disadvantages of Haunted. Yes yes, I'm aware it's not supposed to be easy street, I just didn't expect it to bite me in the ass so hard.
Quote: 2. Give your undead servants two-handed weapons or vials of alchemists fire. I guess summoning something with a two-handed weapon would work--my character doesn't keep undead around any longer than the current scenario for personal, practical, and rules reasons. I'm not entirely sure how giving them alchemist fire would help though, since that would also take two rounds.
mplindustries wrote: Put emergency wands in those springloaded wrist sheath things. I thought those didn't work with haunted? That's was what I was told when I asked about them, anyway.
Handy Haversack. always a move action. Always.
But spring loaded, you're not going through your gear to get something. Its right there.
For reference, the threads I looked this up on before:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2psh5?Haunted-wrist-sheaths-scroll-boxes-and-ha ndy#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ok9c?haunted-curse-and-handy-haversack#1
d20psd wrote: Does the haunted curse affect how long it takes to draw a weapon?
No. The curse affects the "retrieve a stored item" action. If you are using the "draw a weapon" action (such as to draw a dagger from a belt sheath), that is a different kind of action and the haunted curse does not affect it.
If you were attempting to retrieve a dagger from your backpack, that would count as a "retrieve a stored item" action and the curse would interfere.
Well the wrist sheath is a completely different action from 'retrieving a stored item'.
Is there any official ruling on that? I really wouldn't want a GM at a table to get angry with me and say that I can't use it as intended--I only fear this because nearly every gm who has responded more or less said "no", so I'm afraid that any Society GM might also veto it.
It takes longer to retrieve a stowed item because the haunting entities move your stuff around on you. How could they slow down a wrist sheath?
mplindustries wrote: It takes longer to retrieve a stowed item because the haunting entities move your stuff around on you. How could they slow down a wrist sheath? Quote: Retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action, unless it would normally take longer. Any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction. Add mage hand and ghost sound to your list of spells known. (emphasis mine)
Is a wrist sheath 'your gear'? Are you 'retrieving any stored item' from it?
How can the spirits foul it up? the mechanism fails to work for some inexplicable reason; the item is ejected but not into your hand, causing you to fumble about for a moment to get a solid grip on it, etc.
Now, does it seem fair to foul up a device specifically intended to make retrieving items easier? Not really.
On the other hand, does it seem fair to circumvent a drawback to a class ability for a few gold pieces? Not really.
I would say to expect table variation if you tried to play it that way.
karossii wrote: Is a wrist sheath 'your gear'? Of course. karossii wrote: Are you 'retrieving any stored item' from it? No. Retrieving a stored item is a specific action, and getting something from a wrist sheath is a different specific action.
what action IS getting something from a wrist sheath, then? You have stored one or more items in it. You are retrieving those items. They are not weapons to be 'drawn' or 'unsheathed' (which are specifically excluded from the curse)... they are ITEMS which are STORED which you are RETRIEVING...thus tell me what action is required?
karossii wrote: mplindustries wrote: It takes longer to retrieve a stowed item because the haunting entities move your stuff around on you. How could they slow down a wrist sheath? Quote: Retrieving any stored item from your gear requires a standard action, unless it would normally take longer. Any item you drop lands 10 feet away from you in a random direction. Add mage hand and ghost sound to your list of spells known. (emphasis mine)
Is a wrist sheath 'your gear'? Are you 'retrieving any stored item' from it?
How can the spirits foul it up? the mechanism fails to work for some inexplicable reason; the item is ejected but not into your hand, causing you to fumble about for a moment to get a solid grip on it, etc.
Now, does it seem fair to foul up a device specifically intended to make retrieving items easier? Not really.
On the other hand, does it seem fair to circumvent a drawback to a class ability for a few gold pieces? Not really.
I would say to expect table variation if you tried to play it that way. I'd rather not expect table variation because then I'll just wind up getting screwed and in the same boat as before. Is there any reliable way I can solve this problem without having to worry about my gm screwing me over, or should I just forget it and leave it to my party members.
Espy Kismet wrote: Handy Haversack. always a move action. Always. Not with Haunted.
It takes the intervention of a god to overcome an oracle's curse.
FanaticRat wrote: I guess summoning something with a two-handed weapon would work--my character doesn't keep undead around any longer than the current scenario for personal, practical, and rules reasons. I'm not entirely sure how giving them alchemist fire would help though, since that would also take two rounds. Purchase a pair of masterwork greatswords and a bandolier for alchemist fire.
Equip your minions after raising them and retrieve your gear at the end of the scenario.
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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Get used to the idea that no one character can take on everything. You made certain choices in building your character and some of them result in the creation of your own personal Kryptonite.
Pathfinder however is a group game, and the point is that when you have a Kryptonite momement, others in your group have got your back. And at the right times, you'll be returning the favor when others have their Kryptonite moments.
Artanthos wrote: FanaticRat wrote: I guess summoning something with a two-handed weapon would work--my character doesn't keep undead around any longer than the current scenario for personal, practical, and rules reasons. I'm not entirely sure how giving them alchemist fire would help though, since that would also take two rounds. Purchase a pair of masterwork greatswords and a bandolier for alchemist fire.
Equip your minions after raising them and retrieve your gear at the end of the scenario. Let me rephrase; my character doesn't use Animate Dead a lot; I either don't get the chance, or it's not cost effective, or, mainly, he has personal reasons not to, so mostly I use Raise the Dead, which summons whatever kinda skeleton I want right then and there. The only problem is, that undead only stays for a couple of rounds, so I can't summon it beforehand.
I get the feeling that I'm SOL in this matter.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Haunted is one of the more difficult curses to live with (Legalistic being one of the easiest) because of the penalty to your action economy.
That said, the above are correct, the curse per the FAQ does not impact drawing a weapon, it is specifically for stored gear.
In addition, per the FAQ, Haunted does not affect retrieving spell components.
And on the off chance you haven't hit level 2 yet, you could try another curse if you think it works better for you.
I'm level 6. I'm starting to think I should just say, "Screw it," buy a bunch of items for this, and hand them to other party members before the mission starts so they can't complain about me not being able to do it myself.
I also don't get why people say Haunted is the easiest curse to live with.
It doesn't effect drawing a weapon either.
FanaticRat wrote: I get the feeling that I'm SOL in this matter. You can draw a wand as a weapon.
Drawing a weapon is not subject to the haunted curse.
- Wand of Burning Hands should work on swarms
- Wand of Magic Weapon should buff your undead to hit thru DR X/magic
- Wand of Magic Missiles will hit thru most other DR
Don't just go straight hitpoint damage. Buffing the party or debuffing the foes works well in DR monster encounters.
The Spring-loaded Wrist Sheathes work.
Every time someone tries to make the Haunted Curse be more brutal than is written, or intended, FAQ comes in to dismiss such nonsense.
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mplindustries wrote: karossii wrote: Are you 'retrieving any stored item' from it? No. Retrieving a stored item is a specific action, and getting something from a wrist sheath is a different specific action.
I think that may not be right.
D20srd wrote: This item works like a standard wrist sheath, but releasing an item from it is an swift action. Preparing the sheath for this use requires cranking the sheath’s tiny gears and springs into place (a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity). The bolded section indicates that it works just like a standard wrist sheath, but releasing an item from it only takes a swift action. So, go to Wrist Sheath
PRD wrote: This is a sheath designed to be strapped to your forearm and hidden under a long sleeve. The sheath can hold one forearm-length item, such as a dagger, dart, or wand, or up to five arrows or crossbow bolts. As a move action, you can bend your wrist to cause some or all of these items to drop into your hand (provoking attacks of opportunity as normal). You have a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to oppose the Perception check of someone observing or frisking you to determine items in the sheath. You can only wear one wrist sheath per arm. To get items from a wrist sheath, it's "a move action... provoking AoO as normal."
Lastly, from Combat:
PRD wrote: Manipulate an Item
Moving or manipulating an item is usually a move action.
This includes retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door. Examples of this kind of action, along with whether they incur an attack of opportunity, are given in Table: Actions in Combat.
It seems that Manipulate an Item for the specific circumstance of "retrieving or putting away a stored item" is the particular action being used. This makes no distinction whether you're retrieving the item from a back pack, belt pouch, bandoleer, haversack, or wrist sheath (spring loaded or standard); it's still the Manipulate an Item (retrieve stored item) action and the spring-loaded wrist sheathe simply turns it from a Move to a Swift action. It's true that Draw a Weapon is a specific action that isn't affected by Haunted, but even a spring-loaded sheath uses the "Manipulate an Item (retrieve)" action and would be affected by Haunted as previously illustrated; the spring "overshoots" it and you fumble with it. I could see that, since Haunted likely is worded for the default of a Move action to retrieve a stored item becoming a Standard, since the spring sheath reduces Move to Swift, Haunted could bump it back up to a Move action; I'd find that quite acceptable.
Sound Burst would work. If the Swarm is under 5 HD, then Cause Fear will make it run away, but Cause fear is a terrible spell.
If you are under second level, you could change your curse or make yourself dual-cursed with blackened to get Burning Hands.
Fun fact about haunted: It only effects retreiving an item from YOUR gear. While it works better on nature oracles who can store stuff on their mounts, it's still a loophole open to you.
Please read the FAQ I linked above.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Please read the FAQ I linked above. I've read it, but it still doesn't specify whether or not wrist sheaths count as retrieving a stored item.
Also aren't swarms immune to Cause Fear and Fear?
Quote: A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells. Cause fear and Fear are mind affecting and not language dependent, so they work if there is a hive mind. I forgot about the hive mind part, and was thinking it was all swarms.
FanaticRat wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: Please read the FAQ I linked above. I've read it, but it still doesn't specify whether or not wrist sheaths count as retrieving a stored item.
Also aren't swarms immune to Cause Fear and Fear? Did you not notice the example of "such as to draw a dagger from a belt sheathe"?
A wrist sheathe, is a sheathe. A Spring-loaded Wrist Sheathe makes it even faster.
blackbloodtroll wrote: A wrist sheathe, is a sheathe. A Spring-loaded Wrist Sheathe makes it even faster. Um, only in name.
PRD wrote: Wrist Sheath: This is a sheath designed to be strapped to your forearm and hidden under a long sleeve. The sheath can hold one forearm-length item, such as a dagger, dart, or wand, or up to five arrows or crossbow bolts. As a move action, you can bend your wrist to cause some or all of these items to drop into your hand (provoking attacks of opportunity as normal). You have a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks made to oppose the Perception check of someone observing or frisking you to determine items in the sheath. You can only wear one wrist sheath per arm. Taking an item, even a weapon, from a Wrist Sheath is a Retrieve an Item action which provokes (unless you have an ability that says otherwise), so taking a dagger from a Wrist sheath isn't drawing it from a sheath, it's retrieving it from a container. The Spring-loaded sheath does make it faster... but doesn't change the action required.
Wait.
You are trying to argue that a Wrist Sheathe, is not a sheathe?
blackbloodtroll wrote: Wait.
You are trying to argue that a Wrist Sheathe, is not a sheathe?
Yes. The action to retrieve an item isn't the Draw a Weapon action since that wouldn't normally provoke so, mechanically speaking, it's not a sheath in the same way that Punishing Kick, by all accounts, doesn't strictly need to be done with the feet or how you can have an "armed" unarmed strike or several other linguistic shortcuts utilized to shorten the length of the manual at the expense of crystal clarity. You may not know this, but an "off-hand" weapon doesn't necessarily need to be held in your hand... You can even make "off-hand" attacks with any body-part from your nose to your bellybutton to a vulgar pelvis thrust because Unarmed Strike, let me tell you, is Schrodinger's favored method of attack.
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As the DM that caused one of the FAQs on this subject to be answered, another important quote is
Quote: Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
Meaning that you can draw a wand as a move action as a Haunted Oracle if the wand is stored in a sheathe or other similar quick-capable holding container. To draw the wand from your backpack, even a handy haversack, as a Haunted Oracle would cost you a standard action because you are performing the "Retrieve a stored item" action.
The wrist sheathe, is a sheathe, that can hold weapons.
What would call a sheathe, that was placed upon the wrist?
Is the belt the only place a sheathe can be placed?
blackbloodtroll wrote: Wait.
You are trying to argue that a Wrist Sheathe, is not a sheathe?
Specific rules override general. The Wrist Sheath text says "provoking attacks of opportunity as normal". That seems to mean using it provokes. OTOH, it's not clear what "as normal" means in that context. Normally drawing a weapon doesn't provoke. So why is that phrase there?
I don't see any text that indicates using a wrist sheath is a Retrieve an Item action.
However, back to actually being useful for the Haunted Oracle Draw or Sheathe a Weapon wrote: Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item. If you carry your wand "in easy reach" and not "stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach", getting it is a Draw action, not a "Retrieve a stored item" one.
blackbloodtroll wrote: The wrist sheathe, is a sheathe, that can hold weapons.
What would call a sheathe, that was placed upon the wrist?
Is the belt the only place a sheathe can be placed?
If you just buy a 'sheath' (by the way, sheathe is a verb, the noun you are looking for is sheath) and not a 'wrist sheath' and you strap that 'sheath' to your forearm, then you can draw weapons and wands from it. But you could not store other items including ammo in it, could not use a move action to dump an item into your palm in a sneaky manner, etc.
The 'wrist sheath' is more of a specialized backpack or pouch which is worn on the forearm and has the listed rules text. It specifies how you retrieve items stored from it, and that specification is NOT drawing a weapon.
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When using a wrist sheath, the sheath is worn on the forearm near the elbow and under a sleeve and you must flex your wrist to cause the item to "drop" into your hand. That isn't "easy reach". When you "draw a weapon", the handle is out in the open, you grab it with your hand, and pull it from its holder. You don't do this with a wrist sheath, unless you're not wearing sleeves (which defeats the purpose) and, if using the spring-loaded mechanism, you are explicitly relying on the "pop and drop" to pull the weapon. Rubber-band a sheathed dagger to your elbow under a long sleeve and tell me that it's "in easy reach". A weapon holster can be on your back, belt, boot, strapped to your arm over your armor and clothes, or just about anywhere else you can imagine. But if it's up your sleeve, down your pant leg, or in your backpack, it's not "in easy reach" and it's a Retrieve an Item action to get it ready for use. Is that a wand of Enlarge Person in your pants, or are you just happy to see me?
Baring something in RAW that explicitly says wrist sheaths are not sheaths, they would be treated exactly the same as any other type of sheath.
Under current rules that means.
1. there are circumstances where an AoO may be provoked.
2. there are circumstances that allow the stored weapon to be retrieved as a swift action.
Nothing exists in RAW changing a wrist sheath into something other than a sheath (i.e. a pouch). As such, a wrist sheath would not be subject to Haunted.
Easy reach. Look it up. A sheathed dagger stored in your backpack is still in your backpack. A sheathed dagger stored up your sleeve is still up your sleeve. In neither case is it "in easy reach" even if it's also "in a sheath". The wrist sheath allows you to hide the weapon more effectively but it's still a Retrieve an Item action to retrieve it because you can't just grip the handle and whip it out like you could if it were worn out in the open (ie. not up your sleeve). You need to jimmy your wrist to loosen the sheath to drop it into your hand... that's not "draw a weapon in easy reach" and, on dropping it, it could get stuck or your could fumble it because haunted spirits thought it should do the Harlem Shake on the way down your sleeve. And a Spring-loaded wrist sheath explicitly states that it functions as a normal Wrist sheath, except it reduces the retrieval action from Move to Swift. It's still not drawing a weapon, it's retrieving a stored weapon that's not "in easy reach"... again, because it's stuffed up your sleeve in a spring-loaded contraption ready to be launched into the waiting hands of douchebag spirits who then decide what to do with it.
Kazaan wrote: A sheathed dagger stored up your sleeve is still up your sleeve. Sleeves?
A breastplate is torso only.
My oracle's arms are bare.
So from what I can understand, my best bet is to just get a wand of burning hands and a wand of magic weapon and hope the swarms don't have tons of HP? The wrist sheath thing just sounds way too up to GM interpretation for me to reliably base a strategy off of.
FanaticRat wrote: So from what I can understand, my best bet is to just get a wand of burning hands and a wand of magic weapon and hope the swarms don't have tons of HP? The wrist sheath thing just sounds way too up to GM interpretation for me to reliably base a strategy off of. Unless you have the blackened curse, you will need to UMD the wand of burning hands. That curse is the only way oracles can get burning hands on the spell list. You have the CHA to use UMD, but you need to actually put the ranks in it to have be reliable.
Forget the wrist sheath. The point of a wrist sheath is to hide things, which you don't care about. And the spring-loaded variant to get to a swift action is nice too.
But just carry the most commonly used wand or two "in easy reach" and even the haunted oracle can get them as if drawing a weapon.
Imbicatus wrote: FanaticRat wrote: So from what I can understand, my best bet is to just get a wand of burning hands and a wand of magic weapon and hope the swarms don't have tons of HP? The wrist sheath thing just sounds way too up to GM interpretation for me to reliably base a strategy off of. Unless you have the blackened curse, you will need to UMD the wand of burning hands. That curse is the only way oracles can get burning hands on the spell list. You have the CHA to use UMD, but you need to actually put the ranks in it to have be reliable. I have +15 UMD, so I'm not worried about not making the check.
I am worried, however, about not doing crap to swarms with only 1d4 damage at tier 6-7, which is what I'm currently at.
Gloves of Storing.
Though, those will likely be argued against too, because, f#ck Haunted Oracles.
FanaticRat wrote: I am worried, however, about not doing crap to swarms with only 1d4 damage at tier 6-7, which is what I'm currently at. Buy a CL5 Wand of Burning Hands.
You aren't going to do tons of damage, but swarms will take +50% damage.
I sympathize. I'm running a Stone oracle with clouded vision, and I get caught flat-footed (pretty much automatically) by long-range missiles. So you can take some cold comfort in knowing that at least your Achilles heel is a fairly uncommon one, as opposed to, say, mooks with crossbows. ;)
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
I'm looking over bat swarms, and to me it appears that getting nauseated (Fort DC 11) multiple times is just a thing that is going to happen sometimes. Bad rolls. I don't see any reason a bat swarm would normally incapacitate you.
karossii wrote: what action IS getting something from a wrist sheath, then? "Use Wrist Sheath"
Call it whatever you like. It's not called "retrieve a stored item" action, so it doesn't matter for the purposes of the Curse.
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