How many ranks in Swim do I need to go down to the sunken ship/ruins of Atlantis without "Plan A" being water breathing/life bubble?How many ranks in Stealth do I need in order to be "Plan A" over simply using invisibility?
How many ranks in Survival do I need in order to encounter extreme weather and have "Plan A" be my skills instead of endure elements?
How many ranks in Perception do I need in order to be "Plan A" for finding invisible creatures/clues/macguffins instead of see invisibility/invisibility purge?
How many ranks in Acrobatics do I need in order for jumping to be "Plan A" instead of fly when encountering a tall/deep obstacle or an airborne destination?
How many ranks in Sense Motive do I need in order for my skills to be "Plan A" in reacting to the possibility of illusions, instead of detect magic, arcane sight, true seeing, etc?
Look, I like the idea of giving some classes more skills, but that doesn't actually solve anything unless you also change the surrounding context of how interacting with the world works.
The water breathing issue is basically a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. Yes, you really do need magic-but it's party-oriented magic that everyone benefits from. The presence of the magic enables a new adventuring location for everybody, so any disparity really doesn't matter. There are several other spells along these lines that should all be discounted as being part of the caster/martial disparity since they end up being a party resource - either everyone benefits, or nobody does.
But for much of the rest, decent skills and reasonable adjudication by the GM is sufficient. For example, invisibility is a great spell for a wizard - but better if cast on the rogue who gets a boost to his already good skills. The bonus you gain to your stealth check due to invisibility really needs to be understood as contextual. It shouldn't apply in any situation in which the sneaking creature couldn't be seen anyway - like skulking out of sight behind a low wall or hedge. In those circumstances, other senses would be the only ones really being tested - so no invisibility modifier. Sometimes, there's no substitute for a good stealth modifier.
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The problem isn't just a few spells that punch higher than their spell level. It's that the entire spell level system is designed that each level of spell is vastly more potent than the last. A fighter goes up in level and gets another feat. A wizard gets spells which are far more potent than any feat.
Extremely powerful but limited use per day is not a balancer. Even when the caster is conservative in their spell usage, the adventuring day ends when they are out of spells. That's just the way it goes.
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The presence of the magic enables a new adventuring location for everybody, so any disparity really doesn't matter.
Perhaps you can explain to me how "Only certain classes get to open up whole new realms of adventure" doesn't really count toward a disparity.
To me it feels like giving the martials their own way to feel epic really requires some sort of special maneuver system, such as Path of War or Book of Nine Swords.
YES! Path of War is a great answer to the aforementioned issue.
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To me it feels like giving the martials their own way to feel epic really requires some sort of special maneuver system, such as Path of War or Book of Nine Swords.YES! Path of War is a great answer to the aforementioned issue.
As too the Spheres of Power, both would probably go a long way to offering a more equal gameplay.
The presence of the magic enables a new adventuring location for everybody, so any disparity really doesn't matter.Perhaps you can explain to me how "Only certain classes get to open up whole new realms of adventure" doesn't really count toward a disparity.
It doesn't really matter who enables the adventuring location because they're all involved and participating. Plus, if they don't have the power to open up that area, they adventure somewhere else - somewhere more suited to the powers they do have. So who cares if there's a difference? You might as well point to a disparity because one PC is a member of the elite king's guard and so gives the PCs access to royal missions they wouldn't otherwise have access to.
I've always advocated allowing the rules to shape the world you make.
I've always worked the other way around, but both approaches are valid.
Actually, my solution would be to adapt Iron Heroes classes for the martials. My only real complaint is that some of the resource mechanics are a little fiddly, but still its a great look at how you can make awesome heroic martial characters.
It doesn't really matter who enables the adventuring location because they're all involved and participating. Plus, if they don't have the power to open up that area, they adventure somewhere else - somewhere more suited to the powers they do have. So who cares if there's a difference? You might as well point to a disparity because one PC is a member of the elite king's guard and so gives the PCs access to royal missions they wouldn't otherwise have access to.The presence of the magic enables a new adventuring location for everybody, so any disparity really doesn't matter.Perhaps you can explain to me how "Only certain classes get to open up whole new realms of adventure" doesn't really count toward a disparity.
This is a good point.
If I want to put a dungeon 200 miles away and expect the group to adventure there, then having a wizard teleport them to the dungeon is not really M/CD, it's just a plot device. It's not really any different than if the fight says "Hey, my cousin can get the king to lend us a flying carpet" - in which case the cousin and the carpet are plot devices instead of the wizard's teleport spell. Either way, you get to the dungeon and have an adventure that the whole group enjoys.
However...
If the wizard teleports them to the dungeon in the morning, they fight two or three battles where he goes nova and lays waste to the whole battlefield while the fighter is basically a spectator, then the wizard teleports them home to rest in safety, then they do it again tomorrow, and the next day, etc. - when that happens, the plot device has become a game-breaker and the martial guy has become a sidekick to the superhero wizard.
The first example of using the teleport plot device to get to a place of adventure is not a problem for me, even when I'm playing the fighter.
But the second example is when M/CD becomes a glaring problem that damages the enjoyment of the game (unless everyone is playing casters and everyone can do it in which case that group has no disparity - but the game SYSTEM still does).
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It doesn't really matter who enables the adventuring location because they're all involved and participating. Plus, if they don't have the power to open up that area, they adventure somewhere else - somewhere more suited to the powers they do have. So who cares if there's a difference? You might as well point to a disparity because one PC is a member of the elite king's guard and so gives the PCs access to royal missions they wouldn't otherwise have access to.The presence of the magic enables a new adventuring location for everybody, so any disparity really doesn't matter.Perhaps you can explain to me how "Only certain classes get to open up whole new realms of adventure" doesn't really count toward a disparity.
If certain classes got a class feature that says "You are a close and trusted member of the King's inner circle," while other classes got nothing of comparable narrative power, then yes, I would be pointing to a disparity.
You also seem to be operating from a belief that C/MD is about PC rivalry or one-upmanship, where as long as everybody gets to benefit then it's all fine. But that's not the case. There are plenty of reasons why the C/MD can still be an issue even if "everyone benefits".
What if I'm the GM and I have an idea for a campaign, but it requires being able to do a certain thing (like explore underwater for extended periods of time, or travel between flying islands, or whatever)? What if the players all want to play classes who can't cast [whatever]? Do I scrap the campaign idea and find something else to run? Do I require that someone bite the bullet and play something they don't want to (much like the old "Who's gonna play the healer?" issue)? Do I throw immersion and narrative credibility out the window by supplying conveniently-specific magic items?
Maybe you and your group can point to one or more of those solutions as something that doesn't bother you in the least, and that's fine. But that only applies to your table and others like it; it has no bearing on solving the C/MD for anyone else. I'll go out on a limb and say that for most of the people who are passionate about the "whole enchilada" of the C/MD, solving it means (among other things) that there is no "gatekeeping" of certain types of campaigns/situations where the only way to engage is by having someone cast a certain spell or play a certain class.
People want characters to be roughly equal all the time.The problem is that to do this it would be a fundamental change to the core nature of what D&D/PF is, and many people are happy with what it is and has been over the years. 4E accomplishes this (for the most part) and was much reviled in doing so. I've heard 13th Age is pretty good on this front too, though I haven't personally played it. But overall to do so will change the nature of the game and many people don't want that (myself included).
I don't want it either. :) But I think it might be possible to add archetypes (for example) that allow people the option of making that happen.
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Design around the fact that you know those plot devices are there, Blake.
Teleport and scry are easy fixes. Have the dungeon in an area of high lead, iron etc. Have the central location of said dungeon a confluence of high magic, which is why it was built there in the first place.
Flying doesn't avoid encounters, in fact it can make them more dangerous. Travelling the woods gives some protection from the wandering eye of dragons etc, but flying leaves you exposed. If your flying in the woods, then fly checks to navigate and avoid just colliding into trees removes much of the benefit to flying to start with.
Also, let them go nova. When they return, the baddies have responded. Re I forced, or consolidated positions. Planned ambushes knowing the group are coming back, packed up,and moved location, meaning the group has to try and find them all over again.
Or, use it against them. Scry, fry and run. Enemy knows you now. Returns the favour. Trust me, mr spell caster wants his martial,friends around when he's gone nova and the enemy suddenly appears on his doorstep. What, they're in a demiplane like one of the hut spells? Enemy retaliates on nearest settlement instead.
Tipping enemies off without finishing the job is never a good idea.
As for scrolls, I'm in favour of making them a move action to recover, then whateve the spell is to cast. Also making them provoke in combat just like potions. No,defensive casting a scroll. This means enemies with readied actions can now sunder or disarm as well. That will change the dynamic of how they work pretty drastically.
I'd also make it harder the more they have. A person with five scrolls has no trouble tracking them. A person with 50? Well, in the middle of combat, under duress or time pressure. That's a different story.
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However...If the wizard teleports them to the dungeon in the morning, they fight two or three battles where he goes nova and lays waste to the whole battlefield while the fighter is basically a spectator, then the wizard teleports them home to rest in safety, then they do it again tomorrow, and the next day, etc. - when that happens, the plot device has become a game-breaker and the martial guy has become a sidekick to the superhero wizard.
That one is a pretty easy fix. Simply make it so that you can only teleport between places of power. (however you choose to define it)
So - it's great for getting you to the general area - but unless the villain's lair is on a place of power - you can't get there directly. And if it is - he knows exactly where you'll teleport in and will have all sorts of nasty surprises for you - making such a tactic stupid.
However...If the wizard teleports them to the dungeon in the morning, they fight two or three battles where he goes nova and lays waste to the whole battlefield while the fighter is basically a spectator, then the wizard teleports them home to rest in safety, then they do it again tomorrow, and the next day, etc. - when that happens, the plot device has become a game-breaker and the martial guy has become a sidekick to the superhero wizard.
That one is a pretty easy fix. Simply make it so that you can only teleport between places of power. (however you choose to define it)
So - it's great for getting you to the general area - but unless the villain's lair is on a place of power - you can't get there directly. And if it is - he knows exactly where you'll teleport in and will have all sorts of nasty surprises for you - making such a tactic stupid.
Maybe. That's not a bad idea. But it can be a moderate game changer. Does every BBEG build in places without these power locations, to make it hard for PCs to invade them? What about BBEGs who want to teleport in and out of their lairs, they probably choose a power point deliberately. Yes, they trap and guard the heck out of their power spot, but PCs can prepare for that. If the traps/guards are so powerful that PCs teleporting into it will certainly TPK, then there's a good argument that the GM balanced the encounter badly (we're generally not supposed to make death-trap overkill encounters, right?).
So implementing this solution requires rethinking how it applies to every dungeon, castle, keep, fortress, lair, etc., in all the APs and dungeons and published adventures. Or at least in the ones I'm going to use in the campaign.
I'm looking for an easier fix. Such as, putting a 5,000gp diamond as a material component for Teleport which means the PCs (and also NPCs) will use it very sparingly. Getting to the dungeon where we can have adventure and find enough loot to cover the expense? Sure, that works. Blowing two of those diamonds for every day of adventure would be pretty much out of the question.
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Jiggy,
Flying islands, how are they suspended in the first place? Is the land inherently magical so mass isn't an issue any more? Is it possible that crafting from materials in this area allows for flying vessels? I mean, if an island is floating, surely breaking off a small part and tying a sail to it gives you a way to navigate without spells.
Underwater adventures have more issues than just breathing. Visibility, viscosity, pressure, temp. Casters overcome all of those easier, but it chews their resources badly to do so. If this is an area that non aquatic creatures are exploring, why is it so hard to imagine no one has come up with ways to do so without magic. Carrion Crowns 4th adventure has a whole section underwater and they covered that easily with an in game device that made perfect sense for both setting and campaign theme. Magical devices work too. Maybe even...and I shudder here a little....something like gilly weed from Harry Potter.
I haven't read every reply in this thread, but I want to give my thoughts, which are mostly in the form of potential house rules. To me, it's important to maintain the options in PF, which is why I love the system. And I have not considered mythic rules in the following. All this is subject to change as I get to work on it more, they're not playtested.
- Spellcasting requires two (mental) ability scores; one required for spell level and bonus spells, the other for DC and ability modifier if spell refers to one.
- Casting a spell requires a succesful Spellcraft (or caster level) check, subject to ACP if ASF applies. Failure means no spell, failure by 5 of more means slot/spell is lost. (maybe super success doesn't use up the spell/slot) - no take 10
- Counterspells I-IX as spells with immediate action casting time. (MTG inspired)
- Full attack is a standard action.
- Armor bonus to AC applies to Reflex save against AoE.
- At point buy, there is a Physique "virtual" ability score, which can't be lowered below 10, when game starts this score replaces two (or all) physical scores. This is my newest hope for martials, but not very developed. (scores replaced must be 10/unaltered).
- minor combat changes, off-hand gets full STR, collapsing feat lines/trees, stuff like that.
- consolidating skills: (fixes nothing, but a preference)
intimidate, bluff, diplomacy -> persuade
knowledge(x), appraise, UMD -> knowledge(supernatural, natural or cultural) (with a subsystem for each because I can't help myself)
climb, swim -> accrobatics
sleight of hand -> stealth
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This doesn't fix the disparity, but it might alleviate it a bit without IMO drastically changing the system.
From other systems I've become fascinated with conditions over HP, so maybe more use of conditions, which might be a pain.
Save-or-die spells -> save-or-condition with save/round for duration a la poison rules. Which may also be a pain.
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Finally I support the idea of playing the world as if it knows about magic and how to defend against common magical tactics. In part by making disrupting spells easier than casting spells.
I think that was my 2cp.
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You also seem to be operating from a belief that C/MD is about PC rivalry or one-upmanship, where as long as everybody gets to benefit then it's all fine. But that's not the case. There are plenty of reasons why the C/MD can still be an issue even if "everyone benefits".
What if I'm the GM and I have an idea for a campaign, but it requires being able to do a certain thing (like explore underwater for extended periods of time, or travel between flying islands, or whatever)? What if the players all want to play classes who can't cast [whatever]? Do I scrap the campaign idea and find something else to run? Do I require that someone bite the bullet and play something they don't want to (much like the old "Who's gonna play the healer?" issue)? Do I throw immersion and narrative credibility out the window by supplying conveniently-specific magic items?
Maybe you and your group can point to one or more of those solutions as something that doesn't bother you in the least, and that's fine. But that only applies to your table and others like it; it has no bearing on solving the C/MD for anyone else. I'll go out on a limb and say that for most of the people who are passionate about the "whole enchilada" of the C/MD, solving it means (among other things) that there is no "gatekeeping" of certain types of campaigns/situations where the only way to engage is by having someone cast a certain spell or play a certain class.
I don't really see how it's a problem if it's not about PC rivalry or one-upmanship. Every other part of the issue is fixed depending on how the specific campaign runs. If there's truly a gate keeper and the PCs don't have it and can't find a way to access it (really, what's the problem with them hiring one or having magical equipment made?), don't require it for the campaign to function. Putting it in there isn't good GMing, it's obstinacy. Run a campaign suited to the players at the table and their PCs. If they're all martial PCs, and that can make for a fun campaign, don't require astral projection or plane shift.
Martials get access to the following class feature:
Happy to Help (Ex)
Being a burly martial character, you are frequently called upon to rescue overconfident squishy mages who went out without a meat shield. Their gratitude entitles you to free spell casting services each month from a single full casting class of your choice, equivalent to one day's worth of spell slots. This casting must take place in a safe area outside of combat, and you must provide any rare or expensive material components yourself. Rescued casters have a 20 in their primary casting stat. At fourth level and higher, Druids cannot be construed as "squishy" by any measure, and can no longer be chosen for that month's rescue.
Martials get access to the following class feature:
Happy to Help (Ex)
Being a burly martial character, you are frequently called upon to rescue overconfident squishy mages who went out without a meat shield. Their gratitude entitles you to free spell casting services each month from a single full casting class of your choice, equivalent to one day's worth of spell slots. This casting must take place in a safe area outside of combat, and you must provide any rare or expensive material components yourself. Rescued casters have a 20 in their primary casting stat. At fourth level and higher, Druids cannot be construed as "squishy" by any measure, and can no longer be chosen for that month's rescue.
So you're basically giving martials 1/30th the spellcasting power, restricted to non-combat utility, as a means to offset the martial/caster disparity?
Are you sure 1/30th is going to balance the problem?
Martials get access to the following class feature:
Happy to Help (Ex)
Being a burly martial character, you are frequently called upon to rescue overconfident squishy mages who went out without a meat shield. Their gratitude entitles you to free spell casting services each month from a single full casting class of your choice, equivalent to one day's worth of spell slots. This casting must take place in a safe area outside of combat, and you must provide any rare or expensive material components yourself. Rescued casters have a 20 in their primary casting stat. At fourth level and higher, Druids cannot be construed as "squishy" by any measure, and can no longer be chosen for that month's rescue.So you're basically giving martials 1/30th the spellcasting power, restricted to non-combat utility, as a means to offset the martial/caster disparity?
Are you sure 1/30th is going to balance the problem?
Well, it's tongue-in-cheek, but yeah. We've got a ton of in-combat suggestions, and it's the most important 1/30th- the first. At, say, 15th level, that'd be Overland Flight on the most important days, a private demiplane all month, and all those odd little spells, like the one that wards your purse for a few days. You now have the same narrative tools, and it can be a different class each month. But mostly it's a joke.
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I think that seeing "mundane fighter does anything interesting" as Wuxia (or superhero) is part of the problem.
So part of resolving the disparity comes down to perception.
Monks are martials.
Monks are pretty much by definition Wuxia.So not wanting martials to be Wuxia is already self contradictory.
Now what is the argument for keeping martials from having nice things again?
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More importantly how many ranks of perform do I need to defeat the devil in a rock off?
Pathfinder Unchained added some cool stuff. Just give the feat that gives you combat tricks to martials for free. should help close the gap a bit.
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How many ranks in Swim do I need to go down to the sunken ship/ruins of Atlantis without "Plan A" being water breathing/life bubble?
When it comes to this question, my answer is the Cerulean Seas Campaign Setting. You can't find a better resource for underwater adventures with great mechanics for such. It is rated 5 out of 5 and given a seal of approval by Endzeitgeist.
@Tark: Enough to play the greatest song in the world.
More importantly how many ranks of perform do I need to defeat the devil in a rock off?
Now this is a question i would like to know and i might even apply to the game :P.
On another note , dear lord , im impressed some folk here still find anyone to play caster in their games haha.
@Tark: Enough to play the greatest song in the world.
Sadly I don't have the INT to remember it.
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The idea is that CLASS shouldn't be something that does or doesn't fit in a campaign that allows all classes. The fact that a GM allowing all classes and if the party chooses all martial then you're stuck on what story is available.
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I'm looking for an easier fix. Such as, putting a 5,000gp diamond as a material component for Teleport which means the PCs (and also NPCs) will use it very sparingly. Getting to the dungeon where we can have adventure and find enough loot to cover the...
That's still only a limit when you first get teleport. 10k isn't much at levels 18-20.
Probably the KISS fix for teleport is to just jack up the inaccuracy of the teleportation.
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More importantly how many ranks of perform do I need to defeat the devil in a rock off?Now this is a question i would like to know and i might even apply to the game :P.
On another note , dear lord , im impressed some folk here still find anyone to play caster in their games haha.
Mostly I see players follow a pattern of comfort. Some of my players do nothing but play casters. Others hate them and play nothing but Martials.
This alone is enough to say that this "problem" doesn't need addressing on hole. The system caters for many peoples styles.
For some it's an issue, so let them implement whatever things they need for their game. This thread just puts some out there.
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Cap all non casters at level five. Now, suddenly the supposedly realistic warrior classes stay realistic and no one has any unreasonable expectation of equivalency.
/thread
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The idea is that CLASS shouldn't be something that does or doesn't fit in a campaign that allows all classes. The fact that a GM allowing all classes and if the party chooses all martial then you're stuck on what story is available.
Examples???
I've not had problems creating any sort of adventure based on what my party can do.
Maybe some of the posters here can assist in creating situations that work for folks struggling.
More importantly how many ranks of perform do I need to defeat the devil in a rock off?
I don't know if the perform skill was involved, but this is one way to defeat the devil, and the stakes were VERY high! I think the key is just having your priorities in order. (NSFW I guess...)
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Can I get an unrealistic warrior type in the game? That'd be great.
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The idea is that CLASS shouldn't be something that does or doesn't fit in a campaign that allows all classes. The fact that a GM allowing all classes and if the party chooses all martial then you're stuck on what story is available.Examples???
I've not had problems creating any sort of adventure based on what my party can do.
Maybe some of the posters here can assist in creating situations that work for folks struggling.
The bluntest example is what if nobody in the party is capable of magical healing? Now you either have to drop facepalm-worthy numbers of healing potions as loot, or have nearly every encounter followed by a week of bed rest. Or, I suppose, have every encounter take place in close proximity to a local temple with cheap rates on healing.
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As someone noted before, one of the problems with the disparity is the lack of DEFENSES against magical stuff.
I mean, come on, no civilization in the world is going to NOT have defenses against teleporters, divinations, and mind control fairly widespread. The impact is too devastating.
And, let's face it, the only reason such defenses aren't widespread is so casters can use their happy abilities without being gimped. It's baked into the rules.
Realistically, it should be easier to STOP dimensional hijinks then to USE them, right? You're tesseracting, you're popping through space/time. Reinforcing that Veil so you CANNOT DO THAT should be simplicity itself, since time and space are on your side.
Yet, the only spell we have to stop this kind of stuff is FOrbiddance, and its both high level and expensive! WTH?
Can you imagine a political arena WITHOUT a broad ban on charm magic? IT's simply inconceivable. Those scheming guys would never tolerate a rival controlling them. Yet, by the rules, walking in and taking over a noble's mind with Charm or Dominate or Geas isn't that hard.
Normal folks do NOT want to feel under threat by mass slaughter from spellcasters, who are renowned for their arrogance and temper. So, why is Anti-Magic Shell so small an area, and so expensive to make permanent?
WHY would landbound people want to allow things to fly over them? Look at the modern military...no-fly zones are a staple of control over airspace. People would be hugely aware of vulnerability to things that fly. Yet, there's no defenses against such things.
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I"ve posted some basic defenses which I use in my campaign. They are widespread, easy to use, and shut down a lot of this stuff in both normal combat and out of it.
1) Interdiction:]
This spell reinforces the Veil of space/time, shutting down the ability to use dimensional magic. Variants of it are available staring at level 1, and it Heightens all the way to 9th. Area of effects range from 30' at level 1, to 10/level at 3rd, to city-wide at 9th, and can easily be made permanent.
The required level of any Dimensional effect in the area is raised by the level of Interdiction. Thus, a level 3 Interdiction means that a standard teleport spell would need to be Heightened to level 8 to succeed in that area. Creatures using SLA's for these effects are naturally shut down entirely.
This has naturally made Heighten Spell much more important, btw.
2) Stillflight and Earthbind
These spells shut down all non-natural aeromantic-based flight in the area of effect, which is quite large. Earthbind is even more powerful, as it forces creatures to remain in contact with the ground at all times, not even allowing jumps!
Thus, dragons lose their ability to fly, fly spells don't work, polymorphed people still can't fly, gaseous form and air elementals plummet to the ground, etc.
3) White magic zones:
Spellcasting is greatly inhibited in these zones. They are rated 1-9, and any spell must be Heightened appropriately to be cast in a White Magic Zone. So, a WMZ with a rating of 3 means you must expend a 4th level slot to get off a Magic Missile.
Notably, WMZ's have no effect on permanent magic items.
4) Spell Engines
Taken directly out of 1E FR, these massive spells suck in any spellcating in their area of effect, and use them to power various effects as desired. The gentle sound aids in meditation and relaxing in the area as well, which provides a great excuse to cover large areas with zones where magic wielders are simply are unable to cast at all. It also helps that the spell is Permanent on casting, until you hit it with a permanent magic item that destroys both it and the item. Thus, most spell Engines are located in sealed rooms.
5) Grayfields.
Simply put, huge Anti-magic Zones. Much beloved in political areas and key military/defensive areas. NOT expensive, easily put up by rituals and ceremonies over a period of time. Shapechanging and e/c spells are MUCH less useful for such reasons.
6) THe Inquisition
THe Inquisition considers it one of their primary duties to stop the infiltration or subjugation of civilization by outside forces seeking to corrupt and control it. While this mainly is about opposing Hell and the Abyss, it also extends to other races and forces doing what they want to the average citizen.
Thus, the Inquisition considers it a duty to regularly scan places and people for signs of shape-changing, mind control magic, illusionary concealment, possession, Evil - in effect, they people-watch for infiltration and subversive elements. When they find them, they make Inquiries...simply because a person is Evil is no reason to attack them, but the fact is that to become Evil, you generally have to do Evil things. Finding out what those things are or were is often extremely useful.
Thus, these elements of magic are MUCH less useful then might be considered, as they 'trip alarms' by silent, watching Inquisitors.
7) Exclusion zones
If Anti-magic shells aren't used, exclusion zones are, basically wards forbidding branches, schools, or types of magic.
For instance, an exclusion zone for transmutative, conjuration and enchantment magic would typically cover a congress, senate, or audience hall, effectively neutralizing all uses of those types of magic in the area, protecting the politicians who work there and their servants.
A necromantic and conjuration exclusionary zone might cover a whole city, effectively crippling necromancers and the special powers of many undead, and making the use of summoned, Called or Gated monsters impossible within it. These are often powered by Spell Engines.
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These are all things that can be done to help dampen down the out of combat power of pure magic.
As for broken spells and what they do the economy...there's been a lot written about those, and they likely deserve a whole nuther thread of their own for suggestions about reining them in.
==Aelryinth
I'm looking for an easier fix. Such as, putting a 5,000gp diamond as a material component for Teleport which means the PCs (and also NPCs) will use it very sparingly. Getting to the dungeon where we can have adventure and find enough loot to cover the...That's still only a limit when you first get teleport. 10k isn't much at levels 18-20.
Probably the KISS fix for teleport is to just jack up the inaccuracy of the teleportation.
Seriously?
10k PER DAY of adventuring, say, 5 days to go through a dungeon. That's not much? That's 1/10th of the entire amount of wealth the wizard has accumulated in his entire career at level 18. He might not even get that much cash value out of the dungeon (depending on how big it is).
But if does that over and over, dungeon after dungeon, that's a broke wizard who is way under the expected WBL. Even if the group covers the cost, then the group is not broke but they will be, at least a little, below WBL (assuming they were exactly at WBL except for this expense).
I bet just that expense will make them say "Gosh, maybe we can risk spending some nights here so we don't have to throw away so much of our profit".
And, of course, there is the existing error factor and Greater Teleport requires a more valuable gem.
Finally, if they have managed to adventure WITHOUT "scry and fry" tactics from level 9 through level 17 (because of the expense), then they probably won't suddenly feel the need to start at level 18 when it's affordable. Some might, but even so, we're talking about level 18 characters using tactics that currently are available (and affordable) at level 9.
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Can I get an unrealistic warrior type in the game? That'd be great.
Actually, I think Trogdar is touching on something that is at the root of the arguments and it never quite gets settled: what is realistic or unrealistic for a martial? Where is the line?
For some people it is around what an Olympic athlete can do. For others, it approaches what you might see in a blockbuster movie (John McClane surviving most of his movies), some the outer limits of what occurs in blockbuster movies (Anyone living through Fast and the Furious), and finally superheroic/anime/mythological tales (martials can ignore reality.)
How much of the last few tiers is really just magic with the serial numbers scrubbed off, however, and how much is part of being a martial? Artifacts from gods, blessings and/or being born of same gods, making deals with the devil and so on are part of these tall tales and myths.
I am all for martials having narrative control built in, provided it fits with their character (as someone mentioned on one of these threads regarding armies as an example). I'm also for not having spell casters have unlimited narrative control, which is where I believe that the GM should come in.
The dial needs to be turned up on the Martial side and down on the Caster side. That, I think, should be the job of the GM and the players at the table. Much like something along the lines of the HERO system, little notes and STOP signs next to certain spells would have been good (STOP! Teleporting can give casters the ability to get around your dungeons and avoid obstacles. Make sure that you are ready to let players do that before allowing them to select this!)
What we need, since most people see the problem or are at least willing to discuss it, are abilities for martials for the various types of games. Hard-baking them into the classes is iffy for me; not everyone wants fighters to automatically gain Flight as a class ability -- heck, it doesn't even fit for many concepts. But things like inherit resistance to magical effects fits in nicely for martials, along with other, outside of combat abilities.
Contacts, Favors, and such can flesh out what a seasoned veteran might have access to. In more extreme games, allowing martials to gain abilities that emulate spells could certainly be an option, although it's still really just magic with the numbers filed off. "Really Deep Breaths" that give you the effects of water breathing is still just a water breathing spell.
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10k PER DAY of adventuring, say, 5 days to go through a dungeon. That's not much? That's 1/10th of the entire amount of wealth the wizard has accumulated in his entire career at level 18. He might not even get that much cash value out of the dungeon (depending on how big it is).
Wealth by level at 18 is 530k - 10k is 1/53 of his total. Plus - that's the sort of thing I figured would be spread over the group. For a 5 person group, 2k each isn't that much at levels 18-20. Expendable spending (potions/wands/scrolls etc.) is likely already at least that high.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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How much of the last few tiers is really just magic with the serial numbers scrubbed off, however, and how much is part of being a martial? Artifacts from gods, blessings and/or being born of same gods, making deals with the devil and so on are part of these tall tales and myths.