Moving past this obsessive need to try to use RAW to justify this exercise, another factor that might slow down the tech explosion is the people themselves. You can certainly create your City of Light, but how do you keep the populace .. many of whom have little to no real light outside of candles and hearths .. from removing your improvements?
The same goes for many of the magical inventions. You may need to allocate more resources to keep people from taking them for their own. Adding to that, and playing off the commentary regarding the insects and drought above, you make your city/area more interesting for all sorts of creatures, both humanoid and not. A city that can afford to light up every corner certainly has things to plunder.
Well, if you've got multiple lantern archons churning them out by the thousand, then there's little reason to hoard them. Pass them out to the peasants.
Except that RAW such Everburning Torches cost 110gp and can be sold for half that. Prices are fixed, so it's always worth continuing to steal them and sell them. Supply and demand don't matter. There are no economic rules.
That's the price, but that doesn't mean people are going to buy them. There's no rules for their being an unlimited market...note that most locales have maximum gp limits, and so a Torch Archon could, in one day, create 1,584,000 gp of Everlasting Torches, which no city on Golarion could buy. Guess you'd just have to give them away after selling 100,000 gp worth of them for a 98,000 gp profit. After giving the Called Torch Archon his 2,000 gp cut.
==Aelryinth
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Uh, what, Knight?
I want them to put the lights in their houses.
I want a fricking Cont light spell in every home in the city, and over every door. Maybe 2-3 inside.
I want people able to read at night, cook, and do things without the risk of setting the house on fire.
I want them able to see who is knocking at their door.
I want their barns brightly lit in the morning when they go out there.
I want the guy planning to break into the place pausing as he considers the fact the place is still lit up.
I want to push back the night, not just set up street lamps.
What would be a concern is creatures of the dark wanting to take the lights DOWN. But that would mean Summoning in a creature with Deeper Darkness as an SLA, casting it to negate/dispel the Cont Light. Progress of which would be pretty apparent and bring the guards down on them...and its easier for me to put them back up then it is to bring in creatures to take them down.
Now, for water? That's going to be centrally located so everyone can take advantage of it more easily. Someone wealthy may have one in their home, and maybe the fortress does, but otherwise, I'll just make it big and blocky, like a fountain or something, so they can't pick it up and walk away with it.
Not sure what else you're talking about, Knight?
==Aelryinth
Okay, straight up: You need to spend more time writing your posts. First, it's difficult to understand your point here. Second, you're so consistently oppositional that you're getting in the way of some interesting ideas, and forcing people to defend them before someone else can say "cool idea" and roll with it. Third, when someone DOES confront you about a statement, you often ignore it and move onto the next one. It's coming off a little troll-like.
Relax a bit. Let people throw out ideas without tearing them down. It's called brainstorming.
Here's an exercise - instead of saying 'no' to a post, try (just once) to imagine your response as something like 'yes, and...'
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Moving past this obsessive need to try to use RAW to justify this exercise, another factor that might slow down the tech explosion is the people themselves. You can certainly create your City of Light, but how do you keep the populace .. many of whom have little to no real light outside of candles and hearths .. from removing your improvements?
The same goes for many of the magical inventions. You may need to allocate more resources to keep people from taking them for their own. Adding to that, and playing off the commentary regarding the insects and drought above, you make your city/area more interesting for all sorts of creatures, both humanoid and not. A city that can afford to light up every corner certainly has things to plunder.
This is one good reason for high-magic civilizations to be elven.
In my current setting the elves have a city-state that is the acknowledged center of arcane magic. Since the elves are long-lived they are also generally higher level than its neighbors, and being an older civilization have had a lot of time to pile up enough magical defenses to make pillaging the city a losing proposition. The one other civilization powerful enough to do so finds it more profitable to trade.
Since this is an elven city, its low birth rate also allows it to offer all full elven citizens a certain magically-guaranteed standard of living. This encourages a high level of cultural and artistic development and loyalty to the state which provides this security.
The higher classes tend to be more magically trained and enforce the mageocracy, while lower classes pick up a few useful cantrips via traits and the more ambitious are funneled into military training to defend the system against outsiders or upstart non-citizens.
Moving past this obsessive need to try to use RAW to justify this exercise, another factor that might slow down the tech explosion is the people themselves. You can certainly create your City of Light, but how do you keep the populace .. many of whom have little to no real light outside of candles and hearths .. from removing your improvements?
The same goes for many of the magical inventions. You may need to allocate more resources to keep people from taking them for their own. Adding to that, and playing off the commentary regarding the insects and drought above, you make your city/area more interesting for all sorts of creatures, both humanoid and not. A city that can afford to light up every corner certainly has things to plunder.
Well, if you've got multiple lantern archons churning them out by the thousand, then there's little reason to hoard them. Pass them out to the peasants.
Except that RAW such Everburning Torches cost 110gp and can be sold for half that. Prices are fixed, so it's always worth continuing to steal them and sell them. Supply and demand don't matter. There are no economic rules.
Indeed. And with no economic rules .. and allowing that everyone is going to apparently be a 1st level caster at minimum .. that may change not only the cost of items (should it be harder to create magic items since everyone is magical and/or may want these items?) as well as possibly changing challenge ratings? Have the monsters, both humanoid and other, adapted to the world's rise in magic using beings? Are they more resistant now that every farmer has magical talent?
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If you want to put some fluff around it to justify it, go right ahead, but you don't have to. Everything you're trying to rule by making "magic iron" is already RAW.
From a fluff perspective - just make it turn into the same nothingness that happens when summoned monsters are killed whenever you try to do anything with it. (Ectoplasm - to steal from The Dresden Files.)
Knight,
Creating a bunch more level 1-3 casters isn't going to make anything more common but minor potions and scrolls, since you have to be level 5 to create real magic items. remember we aren't talking about changing the level spread, just the classes.
It does mean the average defense/security level of a realm will rise re: the monsters, meaning they'd get pushed back and nations of humanoids would be somewhat more secure.
And note you're contrasting monsters getting better (which would mean incredibly fast Evolution) vs mere training.
Surviving monsters would likely be stronger, since weaker ones would die more quickly to a spell-bearing populace.
==Aelryinth
Knight,
Creating a bunch more level 1-3 casters isn't going to make anything more common but minor potions and scrolls, since you have to be level 5 to create real magic items. remember we aren't talking about changing the level spread, just the classes.
It does mean the average defense/security level of a realm will rise re: the monsters, meaning they'd get pushed back and nations of humanoids would be somewhat more secure.
And note you're contrasting monsters getting better (which would mean incredibly fast Evolution) vs mere training.
Surviving monsters would likely be stronger, since weaker ones would die more quickly to a spell-bearing populace.
==Aelryinth
Or their own training. Monsters get levels too, right? Perhaps someone is kindly training them.
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I want people able to read at night, cook, and do things without the risk of setting the house on fire.
You do realize continual flame doesn't generate heat, yes? Cooking will always need actual fire, as will heating the house in winter. Continual flame just provides lighting.
Closer to the original topic of how to prevent a technological explosion using in-universe lore, the above Lantern Archon rort (and those like it) is reliant on using a monster's spell-like abilities, which in turn, is reliant upon the GM permitting it.
- Planar ally is contingent on the creature (GM) agreeing, which an embodiment of Law and Good might not do, given the consequences of meddling in mortal economies and society to that degree.
- Planar Binding is contingent on the creature (GM) failing saving throws and opposed Charisma checks. And said archon not coming back with a couple of solars to punish the caster for his hubris.
Simulacrum is one that does create problems, as it allows a PC to access monster abilities more freely than other methods. The more pertinent question (to the OP) is not how it can be abused, but how it can be countered. In the bronze-dragon example of create food and water farms, one must ask the question: How do dragons feel about being copied? Is doing so to such a degree going to draw the notice and ire of their kind? Can the PCs deal with a great wyrm showing up to undo their efforts?
The GM always has something bigger and badder than the PCs on hand, the art is in minimizing its use while maximizing the result upon PC behavior.
Or their own training. Monsters get levels too, right? Perhaps someone is kindly training them.Knight,
Creating a bunch more level 1-3 casters isn't going to make anything more common but minor potions and scrolls, since you have to be level 5 to create real magic items. remember we aren't talking about changing the level spread, just the classes.
It does mean the average defense/security level of a realm will rise re: the monsters, meaning they'd get pushed back and nations of humanoids would be somewhat more secure.
And note you're contrasting monsters getting better (which would mean incredibly fast Evolution) vs mere training.
Surviving monsters would likely be stronger, since weaker ones would die more quickly to a spell-bearing populace.
==Aelryinth
Clans of kobold wizards with magic missile would indeed end the adventuring careers of most PCs very early.
I want people able to read at night, cook, and do things without the risk of setting the house on fire.You do realize continual flame doesn't generate heat, yes? Cooking will always need actual fire, as will heating the house in winter. Continual flame just provides lighting.
Closer to the original topic of how to prevent a technological explosion using in-universe lore, the above Lantern Archon rort (and those like it) is reliant on using a monster's spell-like abilities, which in turn, is reliant upon the GM permitting it.
- Planar ally is contingent on the creature (GM) agreeing, which an embodiment of Law and Good might not do, given the consequences of meddling in mortal economies and society to that degree.
- Planar Binding is contingent on the creature (GM) failing saving throws and opposed Charisma checks. And said archon not coming back with a couple of solars to punish the caster for his hubris.
Simulacrum is one that does create problems, as it allows a PC to access monster abilities more freely than other methods. The more pertinent question (to the OP) is not how it can be abused, but how it can be countered. In the bronze-dragon example of create food and water farms, one must ask the question: How do dragons feel about being copied? Is doing so to such a degree going to draw the notice and ire of their kind? Can the PCs deal with a great wyrm showing up to undo their efforts?
The GM always has something bigger and badder than the PCs on hand, the art is in minimizing its use while maximizing the result upon PC behavior.
It's hard to cook if you can't see. Fingers get chopped off that way.
A torch Archon is literally the most minor celestial you can conjure up. The risk of doing something against its ethos is pretty small. And bringing a solar down for pushing back the night, pretty small.
And those magic missiles bounce off your Shield spell, and it's kobold-killing time ;)
They'd be better off trying to mass-daze you.
Good thing Kobolds are default warriors, no?
I don't really see most of the violent humanoid species retraining to an intellectual class like Wizard. Orcs aren't smart enough. Goblins ditto...hobgobs and bugbears are, but don't like spellcasters.
Kobolds I don't see setting up the school system for it, given how backstabby internal politics can be. LE is one of the primary alignments that would be most AGAINST teaching magic, after all...
Put, all possible, I suppose!
Certainly, it would be a wiser choice then putting levels in warrior or adept or witch doctor...
==Aelryinth
Prices could change because of the Workforce, but doing so goes against "making profits", even if the cost were lowered; increased supplies would be another story.
Child labor is good on the micro standpoint - one more person earning money for one family. It's horrid on the macro level - it drives down wages by hugely inflating the labor pool for unskilled labor. If I'm the only one sending my kid off to work, no problem. If everyone does it, everyone suffers.Isn't that based on the assumption that the cost of goods won't drop based upon the increased/cheaper workforce? (Which they would.) While the money families have might drop (or at least not be increased by the children working) - the goods they have will be able to purchase would increase.
(Not that I am saying we should have children work. Talking purely from a short-term production standpoint.)
But it's not what really happens, because it is untrained labor and you've got an unmotivated workforce.
While technically employing kids MIGHT be able to produce more, you've got to have someone buying. Since the same amount of money is being given out as wages, or, usually, LESS, nobody is buying what you might be selling. Cue the declining job spiral.
It's worth noting that in just about every instance where child labor was shut down, living standards start to go UP, not down. It's just people won't do this on their own, because people think on the micro level, not the macro.
It's the same way trying to explain to 3rd world natives NOT to have lots of kids and a big family. They know that having lots of kids will give them family to support them when they are older. However, the money freed up by not having to support a household of kids hugely raises the standard of living of people, as well as again shrinking the labor pool and driving up individual wages.
The war of micro and macro is never ending!
==Aelryinth
Indeed. And with no economic rules .. and allowing that everyone is going to apparently be a 1st level caster at minimum .. that may change not only the cost of items (should it be harder to create magic items since everyone is magical and/or may want these items?) as well as possibly changing challenge ratings? Have the monsters, both humanoid and other, adapted to the world's rise in magic using beings? Are they more resistant now that every farmer has magical talent?Moving past this obsessive need to try to use RAW to justify this exercise, another factor that might slow down the tech explosion is the people themselves. You can certainly create your City of Light, but how do you keep the populace .. many of whom have little to no real light outside of candles and hearths .. from removing your improvements?
The same goes for many of the magical inventions. You may need to allocate more resources to keep people from taking them for their own. Adding to that, and playing off the commentary regarding the insects and drought above, you make your city/area more interesting for all sorts of creatures, both humanoid and not. A city that can afford to light up every corner certainly has things to plunder.
Well, if you've got multiple lantern archons churning them out by the thousand, then there's little reason to hoard them. Pass them out to the peasants.
Except that RAW such Everburning Torches cost 110gp and can be sold for half that. Prices are fixed, so it's always worth continuing to steal them and sell them. Supply and demand don't matter. There are no economic rules.
There are no economic rules. There are price rules. The price of magic items doesn't change without house rules. Nor, for that matter does the price of mundane items whatever gimmicks you come up with for easier trade.
No matter how common Everburning Torches become you can't buy them in the shops for less then 110gp and you can sell them to the...
Well the good thing is, we're not restricted to RAW by the OP or the thread area, so we can run wild! If you glut the world with magic items, eventually they become commonplace. It reminds me of the old modules where you'd come out with a cart full of +1 swords and other basic gear.
The bottled city approach of looking at this doesn't really get us very far. The setting, background, GM and players are going to affect how this plays out.
We had a party we took to level 18-20 in old Greyhawk.
I still have the contents of their Portable Hole around somewhere. Over 100 +1 weapons we couldn't sell and didn't have anyone to give them to.
==Aelryinth
Prices could change because of the Workforce, but doing so goes against "making profits", even if the cost were lowered; increased supplies would be another story.
Child labor is good on the micro standpoint - one more person earning money for one family. It's horrid on the macro level - it drives down wages by hugely inflating the labor pool for unskilled labor. If I'm the only one sending my kid off to work, no problem. If everyone does it, everyone suffers.Isn't that based on the assumption that the cost of goods won't drop based upon the increased/cheaper workforce? (Which they would.) While the money families have might drop (or at least not be increased by the children working) - the goods they have will be able to purchase would increase.
(Not that I am saying we should have children work. Talking purely from a short-term production standpoint.)
Real world: increased supplies lead to lower prices. Lower costs let you maximise your profit by selling more goods at a low price.
Pathfinder rules? Labor costs don't affect prices. Prices are fixed and always a constant multiple of raw material cost.
Actually, don't most town/city stat blocks come with a supplies/costs modifier? So prices can vary from place to place.
And you can exhaust the money in a town, leaving NOBODY to buy your stuff, regardless of price...
==Aelryinth
"You successfully summon an angel explicitly sent to you by your god. It tells you to @#$% off." "You summon the second lowest level of Archon. It gets angry and comes back with the highest level of Angel in the multiverse to punish you." To be less flippant, this is exactly what the OP did not want. Lantern Archons are an explicit option on both spells. If you, as the GM, are going to change that you need a good reason that considers the long term consequences. Are all LG outsiders unsummonable? Can you still summon them with summon monster? Because you know what affects the mortal world way more than some extra lights? Killing a bunch of mortal creatures.
Did I mention anything about unsummonable? No.
What I did mention is that it is the GM's prerogative as to whether using/abusing the creature's spell like abilities in such a fashion via planar ally is something the creature (and deity for that matter) would agreed to.
Additionally, nowhere did I mention killing a bunch of mortals - that's entirely your straw man. What I said was that using planar binding to force an archon to behave in a fashion it otherwise wouldn't could, justifiably, have consequences that the PC's cannot brute-force their way through.
Your Simulacrum example is less explicit but no less ham-fisted in introducing consequences for spells, but only if you don't like how the players are using them. Consequences that presumably the players can't actually face, which is why you immediately jumped to Great Wyrm dragons. Lawful Good dragons, out to murder players for trying to end world hunger! And what happens if the players can take on a Great Wyrm? Does a whole gang of them show up to join in restarting world hunger?
I'd suggest refraining from straw man tactics - it doesn't actually help.
Yes, the great wyrm example was dramatic, which was the point, and the point of my followup about the art of using such measures. Which you missed, it seems.
Additionally, you appear to have this obsession with "Everything is out to murder people!", which is entirely your own creation. The attitude, mindset, taboos and believes of the dragons (including the Lawful Good ones) is entirely the purview of the GM, not the player, so it is an entirely reasonable method by which the GM can prevent such exploits (and it is an exploit) from reshaping the world, and by such explain why it isn't the norm.
Furthermore, the "ending world hunger" comment is, to be honest, a fallacy. Firstly, assuming medieval world populations, that's about 500,000,000 people in the world, and even working 24/7 you'd need around 100,000 simul-dragons at a cost of 300 million gp and 274 years to create for a single caster.
And that's without taking into account subsequent population growth that would result should it be achieved, where the human population would swell to the point of billions, populating the entire world, consuming resources in ever increasing amounts and hedging out other creatures and races by simply out-competing them.... so yeah, I could see a LG dragon deciding that, in the best interests of it's kind to nip any such human population explosion in the bud.
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Kobolds I don't see setting up the school system for it, given how backstabby internal politics can be. LE is one of the primary alignments that would be most AGAINST teaching magic, after all...
As a fan of kobolds, this has a few issues.
1. LE has nothing against magic, kobolds simply use magic efficiently and practically and ensure that the mages they have improve their tribe.2. Kobolds aren't backstabby, they have the opposite. They are ridiculously pro-team work to an inhuman level.
3. They don't need to set up a school system, they have chromatic dragon blood flowing through their veins, they have tonnes of sorcerers.
4. While they are against teaching wizardry, that's because they see it as pathetic for one of their species to have to learn magic rather than just Have it.
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You said this:The GM always has something bigger and badder than the PCs on hand, the art is in minimizing its use while maximizing the result upon PC behavior.In the same post in which you said this:And said archon not coming back with a couple of solars to punish the caster for his hubris.If that was supposed to be a ridiculous exaggeration and not just a case of irony, you didn't make that clear. Especially as your newer post attempts to justify using a Solar to punish abusing a Lantern Archon.
The later post was, in fact, not attempting to justify using a Solar to punish abusing a Lantern Archon, but more an explanation that combat was an assumption of yours, not a necessity. While on the topic of assumptions; it's true that I did not expressly state that having a more powerful archon (not necessarily scaling up to the extreme) asking the PCs politely to desist in their enslavement of its kind should the GM feel that it is getting out of hand would be a good first step to keeping it in-game, as at my table talking is usually the first recourse.
To be more explicit with regards to the reasoning, there are two factors here; The first is the will of the creature itself (which planar ally is beholden to), and the second is what the PCs are willing to do to force it to behave against it's will (via planar binding).
Planar Ally: A high level cleric of a good deity could call a "an outsider of 6HD or less" to request its service via lesser planar ally, however per the spell description the outsider chosen is the deity's choice, not the caster, which introduces GM Control #1. Secondly, the caster must bargain with the creature and express what it wishes it to do, to which the creature must agree and set the price, whereupon lies GM Control #2.
Firstly, archons are not simply lawful good, they are lawful good incarnate, and although not particularly intelligent, they are eternal spirits whom the GM can justifiably either refuse (simpler, if blunt) or request the 'fair' payment equal to the material component cost of the number of continual flames it produces, whereby it saves not material cost, but the most important currency a mortal can possess - time.
Lawful is not subjective. The lights produce have a value, and creating them at less than that creates change with unknown results; chaos. Yes, the caster has good intentions, but that does not mean the overall result is guaranteed to be for the betterment and stability of society - the archon would be creating either a limited resource (virtually) for free which would in turn have value and injecting it ad-hoc into a stable society, or it would be creating a paradigm whereupon mortals rely upon celestial intervention via the goodwill of a single mortal in order for their civilization to remain stable. To say nothing of what it would do to society to suddenly have chandlers and all associated industries rendered redundant. These scenarios are easily justifiable in-universe reasons why a lantern archon might refuse to bypass creation rules to be a source of free continual flames.
You don't have to use it, but it is an option for a GM.
Planar Binding: Is an option to get around the pesky lawful nature of an unwilling archon and simply force the LG-incarnate entity to act against its will. Enslaving it, one could say. Now, lighting a town is probably a minor thing, and won't really shake up anything, but going for national street and home lightning means using a lot of archon binding.
If the GM decides (as it is the GMs choice) that the archon is willing and would perform the task 'freely' under planar ally (or a version thereof), then there is unlikely to be repercussions - the act is not against its will or nature.
On the other hand, if, for the reasons stated above, the archon is unwilling to create continual flames for free, regardless of the caster's good intentions, then repeatedly doing so is likely to draw attention from those above the lantern archons in the hierarchy, if the GM wishes a way to constrain the abuse of the ability.
And there are many reasons why a GM might wish to constrain such exploits: If, for example, the players light their home town, and then decide that, actually, they could really use some extra funds to perform renovations, load up on magic items, build an army of golems etc (all in the name of protecting their beloved home town, naturally), and so your 10th level party breaks out three lesser planar bindings per day for a few days to fill a portable hole, then the wizard uses his 5th level slots to instead teleport back and forth to nearby metropoli with a portable hole or three filled with everburning torches. With a sale value of 55gp each, and no hard limit on the amount of wealth within a community that I can see in Pathfinder (purchase limit is for a single item by a single shop - so if there is a "maximum cash one can squeeze out of a settlement" in Pathfinder, let me know), so over the course of a couple of months, the PCs could spread street lighting across the region and rake in over a hundred million gp in cash to pimp their settlement, deck themselves in magic items and adventure with a small army of golems at their backs and eventually becoming Pun Pun.
So, you can either handle it out of character by expressing to the players that even if it could work RAW, you're not allowing it, or you can work in some in-game restrictions on such behavior.
[
It's the same way trying to explain to 3rd world natives NOT to have lots of kids and a big family. They know that having lots of kids will give them family to support them when they are older. However, the money freed up by not having to support a household of kids hugely raises the standard of living of people, as well as again shrinking the labor pool and driving up individual wages.The war of micro and macro is never ending!
==Aelryinth
That strategy works fine when you have all of the comforts of medical care and an industrialised society. But when you're eking out a subsistence level existence in harsh conditions with high child mortality rates, having lots of of children isn't a luxury to provide for retirement, it's a survival strategy.
You can't reduce birthrates until you change the basic facts of a given situation of stark poverty.
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It's the same way trying to explain to 3rd world natives NOT to have lots of kids and a big family. They know that having lots of kids will give them family to support them when they are older. However, the money freed up by not having to support a household of kids hugely raises the standard of living of people, as well as again shrinking the labor pool and driving up individual wages.
That's based upon the assumption that children are a drain on a family's resources. While that is true in the industrialized world - the opposite is true in subsistence farming once a kid reaches 8-9ish. (At least so long as there is enough land to keep all of them working.)
If you want to get into economics - Adam Smith in Wealth of Nations made a point of it when he talked about how the new world benefited from that and therefore had much larger families which were of economic benefit to them, while many parts of England were pretty much maxxed out for crop production, so even farmers had minimal benefits from more kids.
Edit: Also - you keep talking about money as if it's a separate resource. It's not. It's just representational of value which is produced through - to paraphrase Adam Smith - labor & rent - which are the basis of all wealth.
The struggle is to get them out of the 3rd world to the 2nd. The problem is they can't get there without doing these things.
Right now, the populations of most of the 3rd world are 60% or more under 25. That's a lot of people that need jobs that aren't there. If they weren't seeking jobs, general wage levels would rise, there would be less stress on food production, etc.
Those 8-9 years before a kid pays for himself are a major stress on a family, and the problem is, what happens when you have 6 kids and get that stress over and over again? We are, after all, trying to get them above mere subsistence farming. A cow pays for its upkeep in milk, too, and almost right away!
So, the real thing is on the macro scale, you can't lift them out of poverty until the population is under control. NOT vice versa, Drahliana. All that unskilled labor just bogs the system down. And the primary outlet? War. Those places are violent and dangerous because many of the people have literally nothing to lose. They'll always be 3rd and 4th world until they stop acting like 3rd and 4th world cultures.
Which is deuced hard for many societies.
and yeah, one of the big reasons for so many kids is that sex is the main form of entertainment and pleasure in their lives. Also, virility on both sides is displayed by lots of children, and is part of the cultures. Yet, when it can be done...in this day and age, it WORKS.
Golarion city stat blocks come with a maximum per purchase limit, and a maximum total gp, Raynulf.
Milo, sorcs ain't wizards. And spellcasters, especially LE ones, are quite elitist. What tribal spellcaster wants dozens of ambitious, power-hungry and egotistical little Casters vying for his position? I'd find it verryyy interestink if they could get past their desire to be on top enough to train those below them.
==Aelryinth
So, the real thing is on the macro scale, you can't lift them out of poverty until the population is under control. NOT vice versa, Drahliana. All that unskilled labor just bogs the system down. And the primary outlet? War. Those places are violent and dangerous because many of the people have literally nothing to lose. They'll always be 3rd and 4th world until they stop acting like 3rd and 4th world cultures.
You don't get get them out of poverty by denying them their survival strategies. It's not a scenario where these people are going to bootstrap themselves out of their situation by their own resources.
Fact of the matter is that most of the messed up places on the planet are messed up because of centuries of abuse as (mostly) European colonies. (America also didn't bother with more than a half-assed effort on Liberia either.)
You want these people to act more like First Worlders, you have to actually lift them out of poverty BEFORE any other change can happen.
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{. . .}
Closer to the original topic of how to prevent a technological explosion using in-universe lore, the above Lantern Archon rort (and those like it) is reliant on using a monster's spell-like abilities, which in turn, is reliant upon the GM permitting it.
- Planar ally is contingent on the creature (GM) agreeing, which an embodiment of Law and Good might not do, given the consequences of meddling in mortal economies and society to that degree.
- Planar Binding is contingent on the creature (GM) failing saving throws and opposed Charisma checks. And said archon not coming back with a couple of solars to punish the caster for his hubris.
{. . .}
Suddenly I've got this vision where:
Thousands of Lantern Archons get burned out/Repetitive SLA Injury from being abused for casting Continual Flame so much. Some go grazy, and fall to Evil, eventually resulting in infestations of Lantern Devils. Meanwhile, Heaven sours on the Empire that is abusing them for this purpose, because it has made a mockery of the reward that Lawful Good souls are supposed to get when they are made into Archons. Punitive raids cause the Empire to turn more openly to Evil, which happily gets in on the act, even if many of the individual Outsiders used in the process aren't happy about what happens to them for this purpose. Hell happily supplies Lantern Devils (thus prolonging the fallen Archons' torment further), but tends to charge too much for its services, so the Empire turns to other sources of Evil. Daemons require sacrifices of souls. Demons require sacrifice more generally. And deep below, the increasingly marginalized Aboleths call down the Hammer from the Stars . . . .
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Can we get this thread back on track and less of a "I am going to flex my internet epeene?"
I get it people want to be the "MOST" right but this thread has seriously digressed.
Don't Inevitable's kinda try to stop some tech expansion? That would be a cool use for them, I know this isn't setting specific but I am in the process of fleshing out The Mana Wastes in Galorian and I have it so that the battles between Geb and Nex have basically sucked the land dry of magical energy and all spells function at their base level despite caster level.
Also Casters are having increased problems with more powerful spells. ie 7th to 9th level either don't work or are really affected by wild magic.
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The short answer is that fantasy settings don't have technological explosions because the setting's creators did not intend them to have one, usually because the result of said explosion would clash with the flavor of the world they're creating. As a result, the creators did not fully explore the possibilities of the rules elements included in the setting.
If you do try to realize the potential of the magic rules as written then you inevitably end up with a realm very different from Golarion as we know it. A simple example is to link cities with Teleportation Circles. However you cut it, having access to free large-capacity at-will long-distance instantaneous travel will radically alter the economic, political and social systems of any country it's placed in.
For a realm that's suffused by magic but limits the effects to relatively low level casting, Eberron is fascinating but still fairly 'grounded'. It's different from a traditional setting but not dramatically so.
As for a realm thought-experiment that really goes to town with the full potential of magic, I think the Tippyverse is the best example. It's based on 3.5 magic instead of Pathfinder magic, but it's still a good read if you're interested in that kind of thing. :)
Okay, but how about Ironwood? ;P
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Congratulations.
You now have 'magic iron'. Which is EXACTLY HOW I EXPLAINED IT.
So, why are you arguing, again? You've already gone past the limits of the spell and added a further definition to why it doesn't work. Now, you have 'magic iron' that doesn't even MELT?
Welcome to House Rules.
==Aelryinth
No, by saying you CAN melt it and create other things YOU are explicitly going beyond the expressly stated limits of the spell
Sophistry.
Now you're going to say iron cannot melt, and I just made that up. Because the spell creates a permanent wall made of iron. If it had all the normal properties of iron, you could melt it down. And then you say this magically-created iron can't be melted down, so it's not normal iron.
I'm still waiting for your explanation of how it is suddenly immune to fire damage i.e. melting down. That isn't anywhere in the spell description.
So, I called it 'magical iron'. And you're calling it magically-created not-normal iron, which is the same thing, and trying to say you aren't, just to 'not lose' an argument?
==Aelryinth
Perhaps another way of looking at the question is to do it in reverse. Work out exactly what social conditions you need for a technological society to rise and then adjust these conditions within your game works so that technology can't get started.
Perhaps the consensus is that the peak of civilisation has already been reached so any claims of improvement are met with suspicion. "We don't want to change how we farm, things can only get worse from here".
Personally I don't see why you need an explanation, technological civilisations seem to be rare in the real world, so far we have one out of approximately 200,000 years of human existence. It seems to me like you would have to explain why technology arose more so than why it never really got started.
Congratulations.
You now have 'magic iron'. Which is EXACTLY HOW I EXPLAINED IT.
So, why are you arguing, again? You've already gone past the limits of the spell and added a further definition to why it doesn't work. Now, you have 'magic iron' that doesn't even MELT?
Welcome to House Rules.
==Aelryinth
No, by saying you CAN melt it and create other things YOU are explicitly going beyond the expressly stated limits of the spell
Sophistry.
Now you're going to say iron cannot melt, and I just made that up. Because the spell creates a permanent wall made of iron. If it had all the normal properties of iron, you could melt it down. And then you say this magically-created iron can't be melted down, so it's not normal iron.
I'm still waiting for your explanation of how it is suddenly immune to fire damage i.e. melting down. That isn't anywhere in the spell description.
So, I called it 'magical iron'. And you're calling it magically-created not-normal iron, which is the same thing, and trying to say you aren't, just to 'not lose' an argument?
==Aelryinth
It doesn't have to be immune to damage. The spell says the iron is useless for anything else... period end of story. If you ask what happens if I melt/chop/fry or fricasse? I give you an appropriate flavored answer that meets the RAW text.
If you melt it, you get useless sludge.... If you chop it you get useless flakes, no matter what you do, the end product is not going be useful for ANYTHING. That's what the RAW text parses out to.
Which means...it is not normal iron! It's magical iron!
==Aelryinth
Okay, here is the real reason: they just aren't smart enough to figure it out.
The smartest super-intelligent godlike being in the game world is only as clever as the average GM in the real world.
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Which means...it is not normal iron! It's magical iron!
==Aelryinth
If that's the answer that floats your GM boat, more power to you.
The short answer is that fantasy settings don't have technological explosions because the setting's creators did not intend them to have one, usually because the result of said explosion would clash with the flavor of the world they're creating. As a result, the creators did not fully explore the possibilities of the rules elements included in the setting.
If you do try to realize the potential of the magic rules as written then you inevitably end up with a realm very different from Golarion as we know it. A simple example is to link cities with Teleportation Circles. However you cut it, having access to free large-capacity at-will long-distance instantaneous travel will radically alter the economic, political and social systems of any country it's placed in.
This doesn't really answers the questions of the OP. He already has reasons as creator to not wanting technological explosion in its world, but he was asking what could be a good IN-UNIVERSE justification.
And "the author didn't want to because of setting feeling" is a doylist answer
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Golarion city stat blocks come with a maximum per purchase limit, and a maximum total gp, Raynulf.
Not to impose, but where exactly is the maximum total gp expressed?
Andoran: Spirit of Libery gives a GP limit of 16,000gp for both Almas (pg14) and Augustana (pg17), but this seems to be more of a reference to purchase limit rather than maximum gold available within the settlement. And for the sake of clarity: While purchase limit is the maximum amount a single shop will pay for a single item without requiring extra effort on the part of the PCs - it is specifically a single shop for a single item, not the settlement as a whole.
At which point, the above example of "things that would be a bad idea to let the players run rampant with" would need to travel a lot. Conveniently there's a spell for that.
This doesn't really answers the questions of the OP. He already has reasons as creator to not wanting technological explosion in its world, but he was asking what could be a good IN-UNIVERSE justification.
And "the author didn't want to because of setting feeling" is a doylist answer
Agreed: The OP isn't after "How can we break the world with magic", they're after in-universe (i.e. Watsonian) arguments why it hasn't been broken with magic. It's not a matter of determining the world state - that's already done - it's a matter of applying creativity and justifying it.
And to return to that point once again: As an alternative to "Why hasn't someone used this monster-ability-exploit?" is simply to have that very exploit being used, just not in quite the fashion the PCs are expecting.
To elaborate: everburning torches are a commonplace magic item with a fixed price available pretty much everywhere. They're in towns, villages, cities - no matter where you are, for 110gp you can buy one. The widespread distribution and fixed prices of these items is not based on artisan crafting via continual flame but the secret exploitation of archon-labor by a shadowy organization who used the tremendous wealth and power gained from these scheme to branch out, eventually control not only all broad scale application of magic in the world, but the very development of society and government.
They own everything, they control what is taught in school, what spells are developed, what practices are legalized, and entire governments and economies dance on their strings. They are... The Illuminators.
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The short answer is that fantasy settings don't have technological explosions because the setting's creators did not intend them to have one, usually because the result of said explosion would clash with the flavor of the world they're creating. As a result, the creators did not fully explore the possibilities of the rules elements included in the setting.
If you do try to realize the potential of the magic rules as written then you inevitably end up with a realm very different from Golarion as we know it. A simple example is to link cities with Teleportation Circles. However you cut it, having access to free large-capacity at-will long-distance instantaneous travel will radically alter the economic, political and social systems of any country it's placed in.
This doesn't really answers the questions of the OP. He already has reasons as creator to not wanting technological explosion in its world, but he was asking what could be a good IN-UNIVERSE justification.
And "the author didn't want to because of setting feeling" is a doylist answer
you guys have been going at this for a while, and even though I've found some opinions and theories interesting and amusing, I don't think anybody have stated the obvious.
"how do you keep a fantasy setting from a technological explosion?"
you.just.don't.do.it.
OR to be slightly less tongue in cheek about my answer:
regardless of the theoretical possibility of said development to occur, it hasn't happened yet and it's potential for happening is still far in the future.
or to rephrase this slightly: (strawman alert)
"I'm playing a game set in the medevial ages, how do avoid the industrial revolution from upsetting game balance?!" help me internets your my only hope!"
Answer: don't jump several centuries (almost a millenium depending on how you mesure it) into the future - cuz that's when that happens.
Now I'm not going to pretend that I've got a deep understanding of history, but from what I've read: the technological advances that sparked the revolutionary changes that have resulted in the society we have today did take years or even decades to happen.
So assuming that you play standard golarion, or a similar fantasy setting - and for some reason your players start talking about applying modern technology to their fantasy world (or maybe you introduce the concept through an NPC because ... you like more work?) - it will still take decades for any change in society to manifest.
And yes, this is also taking height for the fact that magic allowes you to cheat and skip certain steps.
So unless your campaign spans generations of a house (cool campaign idea btw) it will not be an important part of your game.
If your players chafe at this "enforced setting rigidity" then sit them down and ask them what the h*** they really want to play, because it ain't normal fantasy if they want magitech steampunk haberdash.
Tell them about Iron Kingdoms , or Unhallowed, or Eberron, or any other setting/system that allow you to play that.
So to summarize; it ain't a problem, you're overthinking it.
that's my opinion.
You're putting a modern workforce view where it doesn't exist. In the modern world, you're absolutely correct. In a pre-modern society where most labor isn't wage labor, it's either small independent farmers or more likely tenant farmers or peasants working someone else's land in return for protection and a portion of their crop, that distinction doesn't really exist.
Ah yes, working the lords land and paying your rent in goods for protection. I imagine in a fantasy world like Pathfinder with powerful undead, demons, dinosaurs, and dragons that this would be more necessary than it was in feudal Europe.
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So, why are you arguing, again? You've already gone past the limits of the spell and added a further definition to why it doesn't work. Now, you have 'magic iron' that doesn't even MELT?
You have "magic iron" that is "not usable" for any other purpose.
Is melting another purpose? If so, it is, by RAW, not meltable.
That's not a house rule.
So I can't raise rust monsters for fun and profit off of magical iron walls then?
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It does mean the average defense/security level of a realm will rise re: the monsters, meaning they'd get pushed back and nations of humanoids would be somewhat more secure.
==Aelryinth
"...somewhat more secure" settlements also means somewhat more wealthy...a wealthier city just makes a more juicy target for someone, or something.