Agreed; I wasn't endorsing the situation, or seriously suggesting that Paizo does, but I find it very hard to imagine a preindustrial setting that doesn't rely on child labor.
In much of the real world, 9-14 year old children work the farm, and fight and die in wars.Actually, their approach was a bit different: You were considered an adult a lot earlier. Generally around 12, if I remember correctly.
The "16 to be an adult" thing is comparatively recent, and a result of having the comparative luxury we possess to decide such, rather than have grim reality force the decision upon us.
Age has nothing to do with it.
Child labor is ALWAYS underpaid. that's why it's differentiated from Adult labor. A child doing half the work of an adult will get paid a quarter what the adult will.
Child labor is good on the micro standpoint - one more person earning money for one family. It's horrid on the macro level - it drives down wages by hugely inflating the labor pool for unskilled labor. If I'm the only one sending my kid off to work, no problem. If everyone does it, everyone suffers.
And yes, you DO have to find out other stuff for those kids to do, and school is by far the best.==Aelryinth
For most of history, children worked. Usually around the house and the farmland their parents are working. More mouths to feed can't be allowed to be idle any more than possible. Any labor they can spare their parents is important.
Not paid work of course, but then the majority of adults didn't do paid work either.
When you're farming at close to subsistence level (whether due to your poor land/tech or because most of your produce goes to some lord), every pair of hands that can work must work.And frankly, for most of that time, since the vast majority of people needed to farm just to keep the populace fed, schooling isn't really useful - they're going to have to farm anyway.
Okay, you're not talking about child labor, now. You're talking about 'chores'.
Keep in mind that a farmer who does all his work himself is not considered part of the labor pool. He's an 'owner'. This is an economic distinction.
You are considered part of the labor pool unless you can up and change jobs and go work for someone.
Go look at work numbers. It's always 'non-farm payrolls'. Doing scutwork around the house counts as the same, chores. Neither is child labor.
So, child labor is a child going out and getting paid work by non-family. Not staying at home and working for ma and dad. And it has a big negative effect on the labor pool when you do it, because you're taking a job away from an adult laborer, and driving wages down for everyone at the same time.
Incidentally, you get the same effect with women in the wage force. ;) But it doesn't have the moral undertones kids do.
==Aelryinth
I wasn't talking about retraining at all....? My issue is more than you are more ignoring the realities of the situation to help have your setting follow themes that you desire, which is not a bad thing, having settings follow non-conflicting themes is immensely important when it comes to setting crafting and the idea of magic items improving peoples lives is not one that fits in all (or even necessarily most) settings. But regardless, if you have mages in cities doing things like crafting items and providing spell services (which the game assumes you are, and is the default of the game), then those mages are pretty jerky and idiotic if none of them ever think "Hmm... I could easily make one of the cheapest magic items and improve peoples lives greatly without having to make a magical weapon or armour or rocket propelled glove or instant stronghold just add command word"Which "cheapest magic items" are you thinking of?
Per the magic item guidelines, the command word Continual Flame item runs you 15,800 gp. (2(spell level)x 3(caster level)x1800(command word)+50*100(material cost). Twice that if it's slotless (and slotting it is a cheap trick, since it's not a combat item and slots are irrelevant). You could bring that down by giving it charges per day, I suppose, but since the point is mass production, that quickly diminishes the use.
Unless there's some specific item that you're basing this on.Even a item of create water should be, per the magic item design rules, based on the decanter rather than just built off the calculated costs. With a discount, I'd say, since you wouldn't get the geyser effect. But the decanter's 9000 gp. Even a discounted version isn't going to be cheap.
Well, the continual light making item pays for itself after 600 cont lights. that is still hugely cheap, and could still light up the whole country in a few weeks of non-stop Light-making.
having easy water production just to insure people and animals have clean drinking water is a huge health increase. just think how popular bottled water is in 3rd world countries. People would rather drink imported bottled water then out of the tap, for good reason. Montezuma's Revenge and health of their kids is a thing. Granted, realistically putting out enough water to support a farming economy is NOT doing to work. but a decanter could easily support the gardens of a large family if they are set up efficiently.
And a single caster with Drench could easily support the water needs of his family farm. (although unless he wants it to be his only job, I'd still recommend staying out of the desert).
================
==Aelryinth
Okay, you're not talking about child labor, now. You're talking about 'chores'.
Keep in mind that a farmer who does all his work himself is not considered part of the labor pool. He's an 'owner'. This is an economic distinction.
You are considered part of the labor pool unless you can up and change jobs and go work for someone.
Go look at work numbers. It's always 'non-farm payrolls'. Doing scutwork around the house counts as the same, chores. Neither is child labor.
So, child labor is a child going out and getting paid work by non-family. Not staying at home and working for ma and dad. And it has a big negative effect on the labor pool when you do it, because you're taking a job away from an adult laborer, and driving wages down for everyone at the same time.
Incidentally, you get the same effect with women in the wage force. ;) But it doesn't have the moral undertones kids do.
You're putting a modern workforce view where it doesn't exist. In the modern world, you're absolutely correct. In a pre-modern society where most labor isn't wage labor, it's either small independent farmers or more likely tenant farmers or peasants working someone else's land in return for protection and a portion of their crop, that distinction doesn't really exist.
If you're working all day on the farm or keeping house for that matter, it's not chores, it's labor. It's life. Closer to an apprenticeship, if an informal family one, since you're learning the skills you'll need for life.
And for the purposes of this discussion, since that labor is needed it interferes with sending the kids to school. It's only because we don't need everybody working farms that we can educate everyone these days.
But we're using modern terms, because child labor IS a modern term.
Non-wage jobs, which you are referring to, are a whole nuther issue, analogous to black market economies. however, the same rules still apply...when you reduce the size of the labor pool, the workers behind become more valuable, wages are raised, rents lowered, they are treated better, etc.
reduce them enough, and they can stand up and force a lord to name them freemen, so they actually CAN take their labor anywhere they deem, which ALSO forces wages up, since now you have competition for their service.
:) I have a Masters in Economics. I do know this stuff ;)
==Aelryinth
...I wasn't talking about retraining at all....? My issue is more than you are more ignoring the realities of the situation to help have your setting follow themes that you desire, which is not a bad thing, having settings follow non-conflicting themes is immensely important when it comes to setting crafting and the idea of magic items improving peoples lives is not one that fits in all (or even necessarily most) settings. But regardless, if you have mages in cities doing things like crafting items and providing spell services (which the game assumes you are, and is the default of the game), then those mages are pretty jerky and idiotic if none of them ever think "Hmm... I could easily make one of the cheapest magic items and improve peoples lives greatly without having to make a magical weapon or armour or rocket propelled glove or instant stronghold just add command word"Which "cheapest magic items" are you thinking of?
Per the magic item guidelines, the command word Continual Flame item runs you 15,800 gp. (2(spell level)x 3(caster level)x1800(command word)+50*100(material cost). Twice that if it's slotless (and slotting it is a cheap trick, since it's not a combat item and slots are irrelevant). You could bring that down by giving it charges per day, I suppose, but since the point is mass production, that quickly diminishes the use.
Unless there's some specific item that you're basing this on.Even a item of create water should be, per the magic item design rules, based on the decanter rather than just built off the calculated costs. With a discount, I'd say, since you wouldn't get the geyser effect. But the decanter's 9000 gp. Even a discounted version isn't going to be cheap.
Well, the continual light making item pays for itself after 600 cont lights. that is still hugely cheap, and could still light up the whole country in a few weeks of non-stop Light-making.
having easy water production just to insure people
If you are a ruler or lord, you would have to be dirt stupid NOT to invest in something like this for your lands. The security and productivity results of Lighting up the Night are IMMENSE.
As for water...the defensive aspects of always having a good water supply have been crucial to cities and fortifications throughout history, to the point where tampering with wells was a death sentence. Establishing a good drinking water supply is another awesome investment.
Note that even the biggest city in Golarion has a nod to magical food supply. Control of Absalom's Cornucopia basically decides who is a noble house inside the city.
==Aelryinth
Agreed; I wasn't endorsing the situation, or seriously suggesting that Paizo does, but I find it very hard to imagine a preindustrial setting that doesn't rely on child labor.
In much of the real world, 9-14 year old children work the farm, and fight and die in wars.Actually, their approach was a bit different: You were considered an adult a lot earlier. Generally around 12, if I remember correctly.
The "16 to be an adult" thing is comparatively recent, and a result of having the comparative luxury we possess to decide such, rather than have grim reality force the decision upon us.
Age has nothing to do with it.
Child labor is ALWAYS underpaid. that's why it's differentiated from Adult labor. A child doing half the work of an adult will get paid a quarter what the adult will.
Child labor is good on the micro standpoint - one more person earning money for one family. It's horrid on the macro level - it drives down wages by hugely inflating the labor pool for unskilled labor. If I'm the only one sending my kid off to work, no problem. If everyone does it, everyone suffers.
And yes, you DO have to find out other stuff for those kids to do, and school is by far the best.==Aelryinth
In a pre-industrial society, most child labor is working on the family farmor serf plot, not paid labor. Children of better of families would either be schooled or apprenticed to a family trade.... also unpaid labor. It was not unknown for children to be sold into such apprenticeships. In Ars Magica, magi may buy such children in searching for an apprentice... or kidnap them if the family wasn't willing.
Note that you often had to BUY such apprencticeships, not sell a child into one. The child paid for his education with his labor.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, Wall of iron is a REAL problem.
Because that statement is ?.
If its unsuitable as it is, fine. MELT IT DOWN. Refine it. It's like tons of ore, just sitting there waiting to be used. Scrape off the impurities and reduce it to base iron, then remake it.
You basically have to take that sentence as 'intent', and then House Rule it to be 'effective'. Ergo, "The magical iron of this spell corrodes into nothing if removed from the Wall itself."
Which accomplishes the goal completely, although leaving people wondering why the wall is obviously still magical yet not susceptible to Dispel Magic...
(sighs)
==Aelryinth
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Yeah, Wall of iron is a REAL problem.
Because that statement is ?.
If its unsuitable as it is, fine. MELT IT DOWN. Refine it. It's like tons of ore, just sitting there waiting to be used. Scrape off the impurities and reduce it to base iron, then remake it.
You basically have to take that sentence as 'intent', and then House Rule it to be 'effective'. Ergo, "The magical iron of this spell corrodes into nothing if removed from the Wall itself."
Which accomplishes the goal completely, although leaving people wondering why the wall is obviously still magical yet not susceptible to Dispel Magic...
(sighs)
==Aelryinth
This post is totally confusing to me. I thought you were previously saying that DM's shouldn't house rule. Now you're saying, what?
(1) That the DM should -obviously- house rule Wall of Iron so that people can use it (sigh)?
(2) That -obviously- the intent of the rule is that you can melt it down and use the metal (sigh)?
I'll repeat what others have said: (sigh)ing or (yawn)ing really is an impolite way of responding to people.
More talk of teaching common people to be low-level spellcasters reminded me of a monster that was in the AD&D 1st Edition Fiend Folio (I think -- might have been Monster Manual II). I can't remember the name and don't have time to dig out (and dig through) all that stuff right now, but this monster's purpose was to punish spellcasters for excessive use of magic. It was wimpy enough that once PCs got through the low levels, they (even a pure Magic-User party) would be able to defeat it fairly easily, but it would be a real terror to common folk converted to 1st level Magic-Users (Wizards or Adepts, these days), and similarly low-level martials wouldn't be able to stop it either, and the higher-level characters would be too few in number to patrol all the land area that they would need to patrol. I haven't seen an equivalent monster in Pathfinder, but Pathfinder has an awful lot of monsters, so I could have easily missed one.
Other random thoughts, some of which depart from the Rules As Currently Written:
Some Cantrips/Knacks/Orisons (Create Water, Drench, Purify Food & Water, for starters) should really be bumped up to 1st level spells. This goes for any 0 level spell that creates something that stays around permanently (or becomes effectively permanent if used, such as people or plants drinking the water from Create Water). Conveniently, this also partially alleviates caster/martial disparity.
Spells that create something permanent that is not dispellable (Wall of Iron, Wall of Stone, etc) should have more expensive material components, with cost at least corresponding to that of the raw material (and preferably including some crafting cost). This doesn't mean that it should be absolutely impossible to save money using magic, but it should be tough and/or dangerous. Conveniently, this also partially alleviates caster/martial disparity.
Prestidigitation can remain 0 level, but should not be able to handle difficult cleaning tasks such as cleaning off sewage or even serious body odor or dirt that is just stuck on hard -- you should need higher level spells to accomplish that with magic.
We need Pathfinder conversions of the WarCraft III/TFT monsters I linked earlier -- the ones with Devour Magic will gladly pig out on Continual Flame and similar things. Conveniently, this also partially alleviates caster/martial disparity.
Pathfinder actually has a Disenchanter (I think inherited from the AD&D 1st Edition Monster Manual II, but might have actually been the Fiend Folio) that will gladly pig out on magic items (except for cursed items). Never heard of one actually being used in a campaign, though (and even Rust Monsters seem to be incredibly rare -- only example I know of is one in Iron Gods Book 2).
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Yeah, Wall of iron is a REAL problem. ... If its unsuitable as it is, fine. MELT IT DOWN. Refine it. It's like tons of ore, just sitting there waiting to be used. Scrape off the impurities and reduce it to base iron, then remake it.
That's not what the spell says. It says the iron is not suitable for use in creating other objects. That means you can't do it. It doesn't mean you can do it if you think you're smarter than the person who wrote the spell.
For someone who's been harping on RAW RAW RAW, you're pretty adamant about ignoring any actual rules that don't support your point.
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Ah the great folly of the ancient city of Hubris how it lives in the legends of all the modern lands. King Hubris spread his city full of continual flame and all was to be great. But then the swarms of insects that the magical light drew were more than anyone could stand. Clerics could not hold back the plagues. One after another brought death and even more swarms of flies and rats, a cycle of plagues lasted till the edge of winter, when the flies were replaced with swarms of monster who feasted upon the last of the living.
What was to bring great prosperity only brought death.
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At the meeting of the great clerical council the realization that the reason for the worsening drought was in fact the magical efforts to create water through the use of the acolyte's spell known as CREATE WATER. Clerical investigation revealed that the water that the clerics were creating was being conjured from the ground around the city and since the water was not always used directly on crops but was sometimes being used for other purpose the earth was slowly becoming dryer and dryer. After this realization the council is recommending the repair of the old aqueduct system that brings water from another location.
^^The first of those reminds me of one of the tourist areas next to the Everglades (Florida) -- it sounds frighteningly like what really happened there(*). (Strangely, out in the swamp itself, biting insects were almost absent.) The second of these sounds like California (yep, been there too, but before the current drought started).
(*)Edit: Well, except for the disease part. That comes later, as malaria, dengue, etc. Move northward, but back in the 1970s it just felt like the insects themselves were going to tear me apart.
Now, now - I clearly noted that it was an 'extra rule'. I've always pointed out when making a House Rule, haven't I? And I point out when the base rules are problems, too, and when something is a loophole or exploit.
And no, I'm not afraid to house rule. I do it all the time. But I don't call it RAW when I do it, either.
You're all being snippy. ;)
You can't take the iron out of the wall and pound it out and make another object. Not suitable. Great, I get that. It's fractured, rusty, striated...sure, sure.
But completely melting it down to base iron, purifying it, and starting over? WHY wouldn't it work? Hells, it works on ORE. It's raw metal. If it's 'not suitable' after you do that, why? Suspension of disbelief time here.
Unless it was 'magical' iron. So you have to interpret the rule to do what it's really supposed to do. They don't want you using this spell in place of an iron mine. RAI. I get it. Now make sure it can't be done. ANd so 'magical iron' is what I call it, and the problem is fixed before it starts.
I never said it was RAW. Heh.
==Aelryinth
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Child labor is good on the micro standpoint - one more person earning money for one family. It's horrid on the macro level - it drives down wages by hugely inflating the labor pool for unskilled labor. If I'm the only one sending my kid off to work, no problem. If everyone does it, everyone suffers.
Isn't that based on the assumption that the cost of goods won't drop based upon the increased/cheaper workforce? (Which they would.) While the money families have might drop (or at least not be increased by the children working) - the goods they have will be able to purchase would increase.
(Not that I am saying we should have children work. Talking purely from a short-term production standpoint.)
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General more on-topic comments:
Outsider interference works for both preventing people from changing the status quo too much with magic or technology, and provides players with plot hooks if they want to counteract such interference.
Outsider lack of interference can also prevent some runaway magic. If there's some kind of extraplanar pact that limits the extent to which outsiders can affect the mortal world with their powers, the Lantern Archon may be forbidden to use its Continual Flame abilities on large areas, even to improve humanoid life, because doing so would mean that devils and demons would also be free to extend their influence, with an eventual effect on the mortal world similar to a nuclear arms race.
Magic could also be subtly limited such that too much spellcasting would eventually drain the reserves for some time, perhaps permanently. Most magic-users, especially trained ones, would know this and this would result in casting being to some extent self-regulated as wizards etc would guild up and prevent rivals from operating. Divine figures would also only have a limited amount of magic to provide to followers at any given time - which might result in the recruitment of a greater number of non-casting followers and clergy.
Most of my current setting is lower-magic and lower-level than typical, so while magic is present enough to provide some conveniences it's not present on a deeply world-changing level - unless the PCs reach legendary levels of power and rock the boat. Technology is progressing at a rate closer to the modern world, with an accordingly shorter world timeline. The parts with more magic and higher level stuff are either tightly controlled by their conservative magic-using rulers or home to "wild magic" that interferes with technology or magic in a way that makes it difficult to achieve the kinds of progress discussed in this thread.
The retraining rules reference NPC classes. Saying they don't apply to NPC's is a clear contradiction.
Nope, because the same book contained rules for young (player) characters, which use NPC classes and are expected to retrain on reaching adulthood.
And as a point to remember, NPC's and PC's follow the same rules in PF. Keep that in mind.
Then why do NPCs get less wealth than a PC of an equivalent level is supposed to have? Why is the GM instructed to use stat arrays for NPCs while the players normally roll or use point buy? Why do NPC classes exist at all if it's expected that NPCs will be able to easily retrain into any PC class they desire? The RULES for creating NPCs are that: "While some of these characters use player classes, most rely upon simple NPC classes." So for whatever reason, most NPCs either can't or won't take PC class levels.
(Interestingly, the rules also say that NPCs with PC classes get higher "heroic" stats. Since retraining doesn't dramatically increase your stats, this implies a restriction in the opposite direction - despite lack of hard minimum stat requirements, PC classes are generally obtained only by those with unusual talent as indicated by higher stats.)
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What we have essentially rediscovered that just like in 3.5 If you use the magic spell, effect and creation rules RAW with no houserule adjustment, you'll have recreated the Tippyverse.
So in order not to have a Tippyverse, you set houserules that define your setting as something different. I think we can come to an agreement on that.
Actually, I've found that to create the tippyverse you have to make a raft of assumptions and hand wave your way past the drawbacks of several spells ...What we have essentially rediscovered that just like in 3.5 If you use the magic creation rules RAW with no houserule adjustment, you'll have recreated the Tippyverse.
So in order not to have a Tippyverse, you set houserules that define your setting as something different. I think we can come to an agreement on that.
From which I've seen, we've no shortage of folks who will do precisely that to advocate a point.
Or maybe the point you're making is that it's not practically feasible to run a game without making a house ruling every now and then?
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Well, yes. Every game is going to be much different based on where you fall on any number of ambiguous assumptions.Actually, I've found that to create the tippyverse you have to make a raft of assumptions and hand wave your way past the drawbacks of several spells ...What we have essentially rediscovered that just like in 3.5 If you use the magic creation rules RAW with no houserule adjustment, you'll have recreated the Tippyverse.
So in order not to have a Tippyverse, you set houserules that define your setting as something different. I think we can come to an agreement on that.
From which I've seen, we've no shortage of folks who will do precisely that to advocate a point.
Or maybe the point you're making is that it's not practically feasible to run a game without making a house ruling every now and then?
So the answer then is instead of arguing how worlds SHOULD develop, one should decide what kind of world one WANTS to have, and backfit your history, your setting assumptions, and your houserules to support it.
I defy you or anyone else to find a real world example of magically created iron to prove that that type of iron is meltable?Why does common sense apply to magically created iron which could have whatever properties, and those properties don't have to have anything to do with iron taken out of the ground?
It says 'not useable' and not useable=not useable.
Because of course you can melt down any kind of iron. I didn't say it was a good argument. It's precisely that kind of fallacious merging of strict RAW and pseudo-realism that makes the Tippyverse.
Especially common applied to economic matters - You have to assume that normal economics basically works and thus ignore all the pricing rules and similar things to use magic to break the world economically. RAW, it doesn't work. Prices are fixed, regardless of where you are. Raw material costs are a fixed fraction of the final price. There is no profit - income comes from Craft/Profession day job rolls.
Congratulations.
You now have 'magic iron'. Which is EXACTLY HOW I EXPLAINED IT.
So, why are you arguing, again? You've already gone past the limits of the spell and added a further definition to why it doesn't work. Now, you have 'magic iron' that doesn't even MELT?
Welcome to House Rules.
==Aelryinth
So, why are you arguing, again? You've already gone past the limits of the spell and added a further definition to why it doesn't work. Now, you have 'magic iron' that doesn't even MELT?
You have "magic iron" that is "not usable" for any other purpose.
Is melting another purpose? If so, it is, by RAW, not meltable.
That's not a house rule.
So Aelryinth decides to put in a House Rule to fix his interpretation of the actual rule. Much like he also puts in a House Rule to fix his interpretation that any NPC can become a wizard - nowhere explicitly stated...
Yawn.
The qualifications for becoming a Wizard have been laid out in the rules.
Int 10 to cast cantrips.
1 rank spellcraft to copy the spells into your book.
Learn your virtua 1 rank of concentration.
Learn to scribe a scroll and any 1st level school powers.
be at least 17 years old.
Anything else you're adding is a House Rule. If NPC's meet the criteria above, they can potentially become a Wizard. Them's the Rules. if you don't like it, then house rule it doesn't work...which is what I did. Because I like the trope you need some natural magical ability to work magic.
I don't know why you're having problems with basic recognition of ability to enter a class. It's quite mystifying. There's no rules that say 'must be a PC' (no enemy wizards if that happens!), or must have power rating of 9000, or anything else, but you keep pretending that there are, and are required!
So, can you show me ANYTHING else that would stop an NPC who meets the above qualifications from learning to be a wizard instead of a commoner? Because I really want to know where those rules are.
Otherwise, I'm just going to assume you're using GM Fiat/House Rules like I do.
==Aelryinth
So, why are you arguing, again? You've already gone past the limits of the spell and added a further definition to why it doesn't work. Now, you have 'magic iron' that doesn't even MELT?
You have "magic iron" that is "not usable" for any other purpose.
Is melting another purpose? If so, it is, by RAW, not meltable.
That's not a house rule.
If you can direct me to the sentence that says the Iron in a wall of iron is immune to fire damage, i.e. can't melt, I'll be obliged.
Otherwise, I'm going to assume it's magic iron, and when taken out of the wall, degrades into less then dust. Because 'doesn't melt' makes no sense at all.
melting isn't a purpose, it's taking fire damage and losing form. eesh. that's like saying 'ice melting' is a purpose.
==Aelryinth
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If you can direct me to the sentence that says the Iron in a wall of iron is immune to fire damage, i.e. can't melt, I'll be obliged.
So, why are you arguing, again? You've already gone past the limits of the spell and added a further definition to why it doesn't work. Now, you have 'magic iron' that doesn't even MELT?
You have "magic iron" that is "not usable" for any other purpose.
Is melting another purpose? If so, it is, by RAW, not meltable.
That's not a house rule.
Don't play semantic games. The rule has been given; the iron is "not usable." And there are lots of ways to take fire damage without melting -- wood doesn't melt.
If you want an in-universe justification, the iron may be contaminated with some material, unknown to real-world science, that causes the iron to degrade when worked. If you want some Star Trek style technobabble, it has just enough unobtainium in it, magically inerted, but when the magic of the inerting is broken, the unobtainium releases iota rays that cause the iron itself to sublime away to nothingness. That wouldn't actually be a bad description in a hard-SF universe.
In Pathfinder, you don't need that in-universe justification. It's fantasy. "A wizard did it."
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What we have essentially rediscovered that just like in 3.5 If you use the magic spell, effect and creation rules RAW with no houserule adjustment, you'll have recreated the Tippyverse.
So in order not to have a Tippyverse, you set houserules that define your setting as something different. I think we can come to an agreement on that.
The tippyverse was actually ignoring some things.
Once the permanent teleport circle is in place, it IS possible to block it (with forbiddance), and there's a spell in Forgotten Realms that allows you to change the destiantion point of Gates and similar things that would also work...at which point you'd have a Circle that went nowhere good.
Breaking the circle would be easier then putting it up in the first place.
Secondly, the tippyverse seems to have completely missed the point that cities need raw materials. If you're creating warforged and shadesteel golems, immense amounts of them.
Not to mention, nobody is going to subsist on Created Food and Water if they can get real, tasty food, meat, and drink. Prohibition taught us that. So there will always be a need for sources of raw material, and thus settlements outside the cities.
And naturally he's also ignoring the fact that if Teleport Circles do this, anti-teleport defenses WILL spring up to stop them. They would be concentrated around cities, yes. Unless they could be made cheaper.
Note: In Paizo, teleport defenses on massive scale are possible. See Absalom, and the Whispering Tyrant's demesne.
It's interesting to note that the Inspired of Eberron's nation DOES have a central Teleport Circle building that can reach all the other main cities in their nation. It's a great part of their national defense.
The need for archmages to set these things up is a weakness, too. If you can eliminate them, they'll never have such circles. That would probably be top priority for enemy nations.
Heh, still a good read.
==Aelryinth
So, can you show me ANYTHING else that would stop an NPC who meets the above qualifications from learning to be a wizard instead of a commoner?
Yes. The lack of the ability of an NPC to gain levels in anything without GM fiat. Ergo, it is not possible for an NPC to become a wizard without GM fiat.
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Magic could also be subtly limited such that too much spellcasting would eventually drain the reserves for some time, perhaps permanently. Most magic-users, especially trained ones, would know this and this would result in casting being to some extent self-regulated as wizards etc would guild up and prevent rivals from operating.
And if you wanted a more dramatic interpretation of this, I'd suggest looking at The Magic Goes Away by Larry Niven, and related short stories.
Additionally, one has to contend with outside interference in more a mundane sense - Carthage and Babylon were once great cities and centers of civilization, and we know what happened to those.
So, can you show me ANYTHING else that would stop an NPC who meets the above qualifications from learning to be a wizard instead of a commoner?Yes. The lack of the ability of an NPC to gain levels in anything without GM fiat. Ergo, it is not possible for an NPC to become a wizard without GM fiat.
So, House rule. In other words, no.
Thanks!
==Aelryinth
So, House rule. In other words, no.
So, can you show me ANYTHING else that would stop an NPC who meets the above qualifications from learning to be a wizard instead of a commoner?Yes. The lack of the ability of an NPC to gain levels in anything without GM fiat. Ergo, it is not possible for an NPC to become a wizard without GM fiat.
Got it exactly backwards. Without house rules, NPCs cannot gain levels at all.
So, House rule. In other words, no.
So, can you show me ANYTHING else that would stop an NPC who meets the above qualifications from learning to be a wizard instead of a commoner?Yes. The lack of the ability of an NPC to gain levels in anything without GM fiat. Ergo, it is not possible for an NPC to become a wizard without GM fiat.
Got it exactly backwards. Without house rules, NPCs cannot gain levels at all.
Since NPC's automatically have levels, you are indeed completely wrong. :) After all, I'm talking about level 1, and you are saying NPC's can't even be level 1!~
And as the Leadership feat shows, and every city plan, NPC's have levels without the GM saying so.
Where exactly IS this argument coming from?
==Aelryinth
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Moving past this obsessive need to try to use RAW to justify this exercise, another factor that might slow down the tech explosion is the people themselves. You can certainly create your City of Light, but how do you keep the populace .. many of whom have little to no real light outside of candles and hearths .. from removing your improvements?
The same goes for many of the magical inventions. You may need to allocate more resources to keep people from taking them for their own. Adding to that, and playing off the commentary regarding the insects and drought above, you make your city/area more interesting for all sorts of creatures, both humanoid and not. A city that can afford to light up every corner certainly has things to plunder.
Uh, what, Knight?
I want them to put the lights in their houses.
I want a fricking Cont light spell in every home in the city, and over every door. Maybe 2-3 inside.
I want people able to read at night, cook, and do things without the risk of setting the house on fire.
I want them able to see who is knocking at their door.
I want their barns brightly lit in the morning when they go out there.
I want the guy planning to break into the place pausing as he considers the fact the place is still lit up.
I want to push back the night, not just set up street lamps.
What would be a concern is creatures of the dark wanting to take the lights DOWN. But that would mean Summoning in a creature with Deeper Darkness as an SLA, casting it to negate/dispel the Cont Light. Progress of which would be pretty apparent and bring the guards down on them...and its easier for me to put them back up then it is to bring in creatures to take them down.
Now, for water? That's going to be centrally located so everyone can take advantage of it more easily. Someone wealthy may have one in their home, and maybe the fortress does, but otherwise, I'll just make it big and blocky, like a fountain or something, so they can't pick it up and walk away with it.
Not sure what else you're talking about, Knight?
==Aelryinth