|
It's really easy even with core for the caster/martial disparity to appear IMO. Even banning other core material, 3pp, traits. Magic is very powerful. Even then your simply highlighting the issue. its like wanting to play Battletech take a light mech. While everyone else takes a medium or heavy mech. Then expect everyone else to use only their light weaponry because your light mech can't take as much damage. Or playing A superhero rpg. Building someone who can't take any damage. Then complain when everyone else uses their super powers.
Their a issue IMO. Their ways around it. It does not make it any less of a flaw.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some obstacles simply DO NOT have a mundane solution. Shifting planes, crossing hundreds of miles in under a day to thwart the baddies, surviving in a vacuum or cloud of poisonous gas that goes on for miles...these cannot be done without magic.Given how one of my favorite setting was Planescape, I very much disagree.
I'm not going to throw those things at a low-magic group.
Your Fighter is in the Outlands and needs to get to Heaven. Solve this problem using only your class features. (You can't.)
As to Razmiran Priests, if you think making oil last eight days is worth a holiday, then wait til you see making a divine Scroll of Permanency last a whole campaign.
|
Dunno about you, but I see metamagic used almost exclusively with combat spells, which means these ideas only address maybe 20% of the C/MD. Remember Myth #1.
Extend (especially from a rod) is very common for buff spells. Some of those buffs are purely combat but others (eg overland flight, shape change) have significant non combat applications as well
Your Fighter is in the Outlands and needs to get to Heaven. Solve this problem using only your class features. (You can't.)
I walk.
That is a thing you can do in the Outlands.
Now getting out of the negative energy plane without dying?
That's a neater trick.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Extend (especially from a rod) is very common for buff spells. Some of those buffs are purely combat but others (eg overland flight, shape change) have significant non combat applications as well
Dunno about you, but I see metamagic used almost exclusively with combat spells, which means these ideas only address maybe 20% of the C/MD. Remember Myth #1.
That's still a tiny number of noncombat uses for metamagic. You've got "all the troublesome spells", then zoom in on a subset of "buffs", then zoom in on a small subset of "non-combat buffs", then zoom in on an even tinier subset of "non-combat buffs that are worth metamagicing".
Like I said, not addressing most of the issue.
Your Fighter is in the Outlands and needs to get to Heaven. Solve this problem using only your class features. (You can't.)I walk.
That is a thing you can do in the Outlands.
Now getting out of the negative energy plane without dying?
That's a neater trick.
That... doesn't get you to Heaven. Unless you are saying you walk to Sigil, and find a door. In which case, you have violated the "using only your class features" by using the door.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That... doesn't get you to Heaven. Unless you are saying you walk to Sigil, and find a door. In which case, you have violated the "using only your class features" by using the door.
Your Fighter is in the Outlands and needs to get to Heaven. Solve this problem using only your class features. (You can't.)I walk.
That is a thing you can do in the Outlands.
Now getting out of the negative energy plane without dying?
That's a neater trick.
Sigil? You lost berk?
To get to heaven all you need to do is walk to Excelsior and submit paperwork of pilgrimage to the guards.
No, I don't use class features.
But I don't need class features to do it either.
That's like asking me to visit my neighbor and punishing me for not taking a jet plane.
That... doesn't get you to Heaven. Unless you are saying you walk to Sigil, and find a door. In which case, you have violated the "using only your class features" by using the door.
Your Fighter is in the Outlands and needs to get to Heaven. Solve this problem using only your class features. (You can't.)I walk.
That is a thing you can do in the Outlands.
Now getting out of the negative energy plane without dying?
That's a neater trick.
Sigil? You lost berk?
To get to heaven all you need to do is walk to Excelsior and submit paperwork of pilgrimage to the guards.
No, I don't use class features.
But I don't need class features to do it either.
I must not be remembering the setting correctly. Fair enough.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Despite your best of intentions, Jiggy, this thread seems to be falling prey to the same disputes as every other C/MD thread.
"It's REAL!"
"No it isn't. Or if it is, it isn't a problem."
I'm not seeing much "uniting rather than dividing" going on. Which is likely why there has been such a proliferation of these kinds of threads. Those of us who see the disparity want to mitigate it; and those who don't see it seem to want to dissuade anyone from wasting time on an imaginary issue.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
The fact that a GM can customize the game enough to account for C/MD proves that it does exist, not that it doesn't.Your idea of 'proof' is very different from mine. By the 'logic' above we could equally consider it 'proven' that C/MD only exists when GMs adjust the game to create it.
I don't follow, and I think it may be that you misunderstood the statement of mine that you quoted. What did you understand me to be saying there?
With no snark intended, Kirthfinder is your house rules/remake. If another GM/DM fixes things, like with Kirthfinder or their own work, it isn't storytime hour (which is, as an aside, sort of derogatory term) .. that or using Kirthfinder turns the game into storytime hour?
I think I've answered this a few times before, but to my mind, the difference lies in whether we're following actual written rules -- that everyone is able to read before the game starts -- or whether we're just making stuff up on the fly/using unwritten rules/overriding rules on the cuff.
If the former, I don't care whose rules they are, as long as they provide clear guidelines for what can and can't be done, and provide some sort of task resolution system, they're rules.
If the latter, it's storytime. And I don't consider that derogatory, just accurate. If we make up a story -- if the outcome is largely or even solely determined by us saying what we want to happen, and not based on us making moves according to a set of rules -- that's not a game, it's a story.
Ideally, an RPG consists of both elements. If you strip off any semblance of a story, you might as well play Stratego or something. If you constantly have to remove/disable/override the rules, you're better off abandoning them as an impediment, and just make up a story together.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Despite your best of intentions, Jiggy, this thread seems to be falling prey to the same disputes as every other C/MD thread.
"It's REAL!"
"No it isn't. Or if it is, it isn't a problem."I'm not seeing much "uniting rather than dividing" going on. Which is likely why there has been such a proliferation of these kinds of threads. Those of us who see the disparity want to mitigate it; and those who don't see it seem to want to dissuade anyone from wasting time on an imaginary issue.
I think that you are underestimating the effect of his post.
While Jiggy obviously strongly believes in the C/MD his post is trying really hard to set the terms for discussing it.
And it has, at least in this thread, somewhat succeeded. There is much less vitriol and simple naysaying of contrary positions in this thread than in most. People are, by and large, actually trying to DISCUSS it. There is even something approximating consensus that
1) It is real in at least some games
2) It affects different games very differently
A considerable number of the posts are trying to explore the limits of how much an issue it is, what makes it more of an issue in some games, etc. And mostly in a moderately reasonable manner.
I don't think there has been one warning from the sysadmins in this thread. That alone is a HUGE accomplishment :-)
I think I've answered this a few times before, but to my mind, the difference lies in whether we're following actual written rules -- that everyone is able to read before the game starts -- or whether we're just making stuff up on the fly/using unwritten rules/overriding rules on the cuff.
If the former, I don't care whose rules they are, as long as they provide clear guidelines for what can and can't be done, and provide some sort of task resolution system, they're rules.
If the latter, it's storytime. And I don't consider that derogatory, just accurate. If we make up a story -- if the outcome is largely or even solely determined by us saying what we want to happen, and not based on us making moves according to a set of rules -- that's not a game, it's a story.
Ideally, an RPG consists of both elements. If you strip off any semblance of a story, you might as well play Stratego or something. If you constantly have to remove/disable/override the rules, you're better off abandoning them as an impediment, and just make up a story together.
Ah, thank you for explaining (I knew I had seen it before, I just couldn't find it or remember it.)
I can agree with that; I'm not much for GMs who constantly recreate the rules as they go along. Heck, I've had GMs recreate the world as we went along. It took a week through a forest to get to the dungeon, and six months through a desert to get back to the city we just left.
As for storytime, well, I've run across that term before used derogatorily so it's my own experience colouring it. I mean, in the end we're all just playing make believe anyway. :)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think there has been one warning from the sysadmins in this thread.
ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED!
I am always amazed by people who simultaneously say CM/D is terrible yet say removing elements of the game that contribute to it like crafting, magic mart, free purchase of spells is wrong because you aren't playing by the rules. If people aren't willing to think of, or try out alternatives how do we ever move forward.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am always amazed by people who simultaneously say CM/D is terrible yet say removing elements of the game that contribute to it like crafting, magic mart, free purchase of spells is wrong because you aren't playing by the rules. If people aren't willing to think of, or try out alternatives how do we ever move forward.
That's because people with system mastery know that magic marts help out the martials the most, since they would be completely useless at high levels without it.
Crafting is a rule. It's a series of feats you can take. It's no different from taking and using Power Attack.
No one allows free purchase of spells. They just follow the rules, which no surprise allow them to be sold.
The rules are the issue here. Not the people using them.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am always amazed by people who simultaneously say CM/D is terrible yet say removing elements of the game that contribute to it like crafting, magic mart, free purchase of spells is wrong because you aren't playing by the rules.
I think you're misunderstanding the conversation.
It's not people saying "Using those countermeasures is wrong," it's people saying "The ability to use those countermeasures does not prove the issue never existed in the first place".
If you were to go back through the annals of history on this topic, and look at the way these countermeasures are so often presented (as evidence the C/MD doesn't exist, rather than as solutions for it; often also as things you should have already known you were supposed to do, rather than as a possible houserule), you'd see why the responses so often follow a pattern of "But that's not what the rules say".
For someone expressing frustration with an issue in their game, there's a big difference between being told "Maybe using [HOUSERULE] would help" and being told "You're fabricating your own problem by not doing [HOUSERULE]; no sane GM would do what you're doing."
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am always amazed by people who simultaneously say CM/D is terrible yet say removing elements of the game that contribute to it like crafting, magic mart, free purchase of spells is wrong because you aren't playing by the rules. If people aren't willing to think of, or try out alternatives how do we ever move forward.
They are not saying that at all. Magic mart is a balancer for non casters, removing it does the opposite of what we want.
Think about the impacts of your suggestions and you may find people agreeing with you more frequently.
I am always amazed by people who simultaneously say CM/D is terrible yet say removing elements of the game that contribute to it like crafting, magic mart, free purchase of spells is wrong because you aren't playing by the rules.I think you're misunderstanding the conversation.
It's not people saying "Using those countermeasures is wrong," it's people saying "The ability to use those countermeasures does not prove the issue never existed in the first place".
If you were to go back through the annals of history on this topic, and look at the way these countermeasures are so often presented (as evidence the C/MD doesn't exist, rather than as solutions for it; often also as things you should have already known you were supposed to do, rather than as a possible houserule), you'd see why the responses so often follow a pattern of "But that's not what the rules say".
For someone expressing frustration with an issue in their game, there's a big difference between being told "Maybe using [HOUSERULE] would help" and being told "You're fabricating your own problem by not doing [HOUSERULE]; no sane GM would do what you're doing."
As usual, Jiggy is both more precise, and more polite. +1
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Really.
The C/MD exists, and the OP did a good job of proving that.
It gets more and more extreme the higher level the PCs reach.
Is it a *problem*? As with many things, it all depends on the players. And the DM. Don't forget that with great power comes great responsibility. The quadratic wizard needs to use some of his awesome might to buff the poor linear fighter. Nonspellcasters need to plan ahead so they have alternate ways of accomplishing their goals.
And it's a team effort, innit? Teamwork and clever roleplay will keep all PCs "relevant" and their "narrative impact" need only depend on their imagination. And on the DM's efforts to keep everyone satisfied.
I love this hobby, and its constantly changing sitaitons. The C/MD is just one factor amongst many that need to be taken into account by a canny DM.
I find that both having a readily accessible magic mart and completely disallowing PC's to craft anything beyond minor tools (like an Alchemist making Alchemist's Fire) is generally what you need to do to limit casters running away in power without starving martials of much-needed magic items. It doesn't fix the disparity (not even close) but it does help some.
That being said, just because I have these house rules that help mitigate disparity by ensuring casters don't have five different metamagic rods up their butt doesn't mean the problems within the system exist. If there wasn't a problem I wouldn't have to make any house rules.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The C/MD exists, and the OP did a good job of proving that.
Did I? Because what I was trying to do was not to prove the existence of the C/MD itself, but to point out misunderstandings about the discussion. Such as...
And it's a team effort, innit? Teamwork and clever roleplay will keep all PCs "relevant"
...that. There's a whole section devoted to the incorrect assertion that all it takes is teamwork.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really don't like having to rely on the DM to place solutions for me either. I may as well be playing a DMPC at that point.
I want more agency when I'm playing, not less.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A problem I see with the C/MD is that many of the problematic magical spells can be countered with other magic not mundanity (PFG - Summon; Invis - Invisibility Purge).
Whilst if Martials use magic items to reduce it, then they are using magic to reduce the disparity and thus are invalid. Plus casters could afford to do that and buy their armour, weapons & wands.
Whereas if if Martials can do anything to reduce it mundanely (not as a specific class feature) then Casters could do it too.
Thus the only way for paizo to reduce it is to change the class abilities of some Martials, however when they do this (Unchained Adventures, Weaponmasters Guide) there are calls that it's too late.
A problem I see with the C/MD is that many of the problematic magical spells can be countered with other magic not mundanity (PFG - Summon; Invis - Invisibility Purge).
Whilst if Martials use magic items to reduce it, then they are using magic to reduce the disparity and thus are invalid. Plus casters could afford to do that and buy their armour, weapons & wands.
Whereas if if Martials can do anything to reduce it mundanely (not as a specific class feature) then Casters could do it too.
Thus the only way for paizo to reduce it is to change the class abilities of some Martials, however when they do this (Unchained Adventures, Weaponmasters Guide) there are calls that it's too late.
They actually finally released some good anti-caster options for martials in the Weapon Master's Handbook. Ace Trip makes that Overland Flight-using Wizard face plant on the ground, and you can just give up on targeting a Fighter with Smash from the Air and Spellcut with a spell.
These, of course, only address the disparity in combat situations, but it is a good start. The Magic Item Mastery feats are good for more generally leveling the playing field because martials (who generally have a good fort save) are better at utilizing the feats than arcane casters. Clerics are good at using them but, well, once again it's a start.
The C/MD exists, and the OP did a good job of proving that.Did I? Because what I was trying to do was not to prove the existence of the C/MD itself, but to point out misunderstandings about the discussion. Such as...
And it's a team effort, innit? Teamwork and clever roleplay will keep all PCs "relevant"...that. There's a whole section devoted to the incorrect assertion that all it takes is teamwork.
I'm not saying "all it takes is teamwork". The C/MD exists and all the teamwork in the world won't wipe it out of existence.
I'm saying that it's a fact of the game we play, and that players and DMs have ways to work with this fact in order to have fun.
Dismissing linear fighters as "irrelevant" because of the C/MD dosn't help, though. Blaming quadratic wizards doesn't help.
And blaming the PF system for creating the C/MD in the first place *really* doesn't help.
The C/MD exists. There also exist numerous ways to partially limit its scope; some are house rules, some are semi-official variants like in PF Unchained. The best way to limit its scope, though, is just not to get all bent out of shape about it. As long as your game is deeply founded in roleplaying and interaction and teamwork, the C/MD just isn't such the bugbear some folks think it is.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As long as your game is deeply founded in roleplaying and interaction and teamwork, the C/MD just isn't such the bugbear some folks think it is.
This is what makes me think you misunderstand the nature of the C/MD. How would you define it?
Well the main 'problem' with Overland Flight is it's non-combat utility, IE. 'Hustling' all day for twice the distance of a 40' movement creature.
Of course a creature with that move could hustle for 8 hours taking 112HP (iirc) of non-lethal damage, a bit much for a level 9 Martial. Although he doesn't need to make any flying checks.
EDIT: Although I suppose the martial could hustle for 5 hours then walk for 6 more requiring a Con check DC22 at worst. So the martial can do it mundanely but it's just harder (requiring more system mastery/effort)
Jacking up the casting time fixes zero problems and raises more. Martials are still wholly dependent on magic to solve most problems...except now casters are less capable of solving them as well. This leaves everyone up s+~* creek equally.
All it really accomplishes is making casters less fun to play, which isn't really a solution at all.
I'm not posing it as a solution to the problem at hand. I'm just using it as an example to refute the "Magic is supposed to be stronger because it's magic" argument.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
TL:DR
Point x is a Myth!! I say so!
No is not!!! You haven't proven it!!!
Yes it is!! I've proven it by saying it is!!
No is not!! I've never see it!!
Then is a myth, i've proven it by saing point x is a myth!!!!ecc. ecc. ecc.
All I see in this thread is some awesome display of circular logic.
I think it's about time we had another brainstorming session for martial powers. We could lay out the main narrative deficiencies (intraplanar transport, interplanar transport, flight, invisibility, mind control, terrain management, at-range combat utilities, conjuring/awakening/animating allies, communication, magic item affordability...wow, there's a lot of these...).
It doesn't take house rules to fix the problems caused by the MC disparity. It takes encounter and designing planning to make the experience fun for everyone and knowing that you don't always need to play the same class. Each class is going to be a different experience, and that's what this game should be about.
I agree with Mr. Pitt, when it comes to relatively mild challenges with respect to EL vs. APL. When you pull out the tactical stops, however, and challenge everyone to do everything they can just to survive, the disparity quickly goes from "mildly annoying but ultimately inconsequential" to "crippling."
The issue is that some people LIKE hardcoregrimdarkapocalypse games where the tactics gets pushed to 11. Not everyone wants to always play a relatively mild happytime game. A good system, ideally, should support both, and all styles in between.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
TL:DR
Point x is a Myth!! I say so!
No is not!!! You haven't proven it!!!
Yes it is!! I've proven it by saying it is!!
No is not!! I've never see it!!
Then is a myth, i've proven it by saing point x is a myth!!!!ecc. ecc. ecc.
All I see in this thread is some awesome display of circular logic.
I think it's about time we had another brainstorming session for martial powers. We could lay out the main narrative deficiencies (intraplanar transport, interplanar transport, flight, invisibility, mind control, terrain management, at-range combat utilities, conjuring/awakening/animating allies, communication, magic item affordability...wow, there's a lot of these...).
None of these, imho, is as big a hurdle as the lack of actual healing capabilities. "Martials can go all day" doesn't mean jack if they're down 2/3s of their hp, have taken a half dozen points of ability damage, have two negative levels, and are fatigued.
They actually finally released some good anti-caster options for martials in the Weapon Master's Handbook. Ace Trip makes that Overland Flight-using Wizard face plant on the ground, and you can just give up on targeting a Fighter with Smash from the Air and Spellcut with a spell.
These, of course, only address the disparity in combat situations, but it is a good start. The Magic Item Mastery feats are good for more generally leveling the playing field because martials (who generally have a good fort save) are better at utilizing the feats than arcane casters. Clerics are good at using them but, well, once again it's a start.
Those are pretty cool indeed, though I think Cut From The Air is too good against ranged attackers. It can easily nullify a whole full attack from an archer.
In any case, I think creating loads of anti-caster options isn't the best way to deal with CM/D. The idea is to make martials more versatile and useful, not immune to magic attack but useless without magic support.
To be clear - Jiggy you will see from my early post in this thread that I agree that C/MD exists. Largely due to your arguments. What therefore is the solution / mitigation.
Anxyr I know that crafting, magic item mart, and purchasing new spells for a few gold pieces each are all 'rules' in Pathfinder. That was my point. If they are rules and increasing C/MD then that is a problem. so what do we do about it. Ready availability of scrolls, wands and new spells encourages C/MD. ergo removing these features is a way of mitigating CM/D
Trogdar, that was my point and instantly Anzyr confirmed it by sayin magic mart, crafting and spells were all pathfinder rules and are part of the game.
The rules aren't going anyway. If we have a problem with C/MD we have to fix it ourselves.
|
They actually finally released some good anti-caster options for martials in the Weapon Master's Handbook. Ace Trip makes that Overland Flight-using Wizard face plant on the ground, and you can just give up on targeting a Fighter with Smash from the Air and Spellcut with a spell.
These, of course, only address the disparity in combat situations, but it is a good start. The Magic Item Mastery feats are good for more generally leveling the playing field because martials (who generally have a good fort save) are better at utilizing the feats than arcane casters. Clerics are good at using them but, well, once again it's a start.
Those are pretty cool indeed, though I think Cut From The Air is too good against ranged attackers. It can easily nullify a whole full attack from an archer.
It eats an AoO per attack blocked. Even if you take Combat Reflexes, AoOs scale more slowly than Full Attacks.
Besides, casters can more easily nullify a full attack from an archer with several different spells. Fickle Winds, Wind Wall, Protection from Arrows, Emergency Force Sphere...
The rules aren't going anyway. If we have a problem with C/MD we have to fix it ourselves.
Basically been my tune for the past couple of months. I'm finding it easier to cut out most of paizo and throw in plenty of third party.
So far it's been interesting.
Hopefully I'll be able to move the experiment from pbp to table.
To be clear - Jiggy you will see from my early post in this thread that I agree that C/MD exists. Largely due to your arguments. What therefore is the solution / mitigation.
Short of a complete system overhaul...not much, really. As far as SOLVING, anyway. Mitigating is best done via gentleman's agreements.
Between making casting more like Psionics (no more Prepared casting, power points, making Powers better requiring higher resource expenditure instead of free scaling, etc.) and giving martials new abilities (at least as much as Path of War provides, though as much as I like that book I'd prefer in a different manner), the gap should be significantly closed.
Mythic provides some of what is needed. Abilities like Seven League Leap as a Teleportation substitute, or things like Aerial Assault (especially with Grapple. RKO OUTTA NO-HWERE) or Juggernaut providing new, thematic combat options. That shouldn't be limited to a ridiculously high powered sub-system.
I'm considering making up a "Mythic without Mythic" system that provides Mythic Ranks, but only with the more options oriented abilities available and none of the raw numbers enhancers, then providing those ranks for free to all martials and 4 level casters (with limited access for 6 level casters).
Once I can look at the Weapon Master's Handbook materials (only some of it seems to be on the SRD right now) I think I'll see about a way to incorporate those options without such heinous Feat investement. Even if it comes down to giving everybody a Feat per level.
To be clear - Jiggy you will see from my early post in this thread that I agree that C/MD exists. Largely due to your arguments. What therefore is the solution / mitigation.
Anxyr I know that crafting, magic item mart, and purchasing new spells for a few gold pieces each are all 'rules' in Pathfinder. That was my point. If they are rules and increasing C/MD then that is a problem. so what do we do about it. Ready availability of scrolls, wands and new spells encourages C/MD. ergo removing these features is a way of mitigating CM/D
Trogdar, that was my point and instantly Anzyr confirmed it by sayin magic mart, crafting and spells were all pathfinder rules and are part of the game.
The rules aren't going anyway. If we have a problem with C/MD we have to fix it ourselves.
The issue is nothing you suggested actually *helps* martials. Which means it doesn't really address disparity and your listed suggestions would actually make disparity worse. If that wasn't clear from my post, I hope it is now.