1) I actually meant this:** spoiler omitted **Where is that from?
Simulacrum = slavery
Slavery = evil act
Wizard + evil act = hordes of screaming pitchfork wielding commoners banging on your door as van Helsing sets fire to your house and then coup de gras you in the head.
Some spells are designed to be used against PCs not by them. Arkelion is ace though I love it when Jiggy said we may not see Arkelion wizards in every game... May not... Because of system mastery and how the other players are. Ha ha.
Rather than respecting your DM and the general courtesy of not treating your gaming group as your own personal playground. A character in our group who brought Arkelion along would generate a lot of laughs for a session. If he did it the following session then he would politely be asked to leave.
Using the Simulacrum spell is not slavery. Words have meanings and Simulacrum does not qualify as slavery. For starters, the created Simulacrum are inherently loyal, so there is no need to enslave them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'll take your word for it. But with the groups I played with it seems like most of the later books never existed to be honest. All the Incarnum, whatever other alternate magic book they had, even that thing that had the Crusaders and martial "powers" type thing wasn't used (or even bought by anyone).
Think we pretty much only used the core books and the FR books for.. three/four years. Of course lots of cheese was made using the FR books (The "Cheater of Mystra" and the Incanta- uhh whatever it was).
I think everyone just got tired of splat books past a certain point. I know Serpent Kingdoms was the last one I purchased (think anyway, I'd have to dig that box out of the closet to be sure).
On the other hand though, we used the heck out of Unapproachable East and Silver Marches. Can't remember any crunch used from the East Book, but someone did make a Peerless Archer, which was surprisingly useful looking back.
Would now be a bad time to point out that adding more books made 3.5 more balanced, rather then less? Because Wizards get most of their crazy OP stuff in core. Oh sure, some other really crazy stuff is outside core, but pound for pound, the martial caster disparity is at it's highest in core.
Okay, just by way of clarification I've compiled what I think to be the rules of the 1v1 match between the fighter I'll create and the wizard Jiggy will create. I'll include some questions that these rules have sparked for me. Please chime in Jiggy to agree, correct, or change as you see fit.
to ElMustacho for the willingness to GM the arena, both the 1v1 and any group matches that take place. Very noble of you sir!
Rules of Jiggy V MendedWall
Jiggy makes a wizard, MW makes a Fighter
Hit points will be max HD at 1st level and average (rounded up) thereafter. So you get 10/6/6/6/6/6/6 and I get 6/4/4/4/4/4/4. Stats are standard 15 point buy.
• No multiclassing.
• CRB only (which, remember, also means no traits, so I can't even get metamagic reducers).
• Just yourself (no Leadership, no purchased critters, but also no summons).
• Standard WBL, spent as you see fit.
• Prior to the event, we're both considered to know it's coming up and can prepare as much as we want, as long as we don't interact (I can't scry on you, you can't have people spy on me, and so forth).
• We both start in "waiting rooms" where we both have three rounds to drink potions/cast buffs. We are then teleported onto the floor of a colosseum. The fighting arena is a 100ft-diameter sphere (less math).
• When we're teleported in, we're 60 feet apart, with the center of the arena being halfway between us.
• We then roll initiative and go from there.
For hit points, does that include taking the +1 per level for a favored class bonus, or taking a feat like toughness?
For teleporting in, I had this crazy dream last night the teleportation took place almost via Star Trek. The character stands on a pedestal in the antechamber, and then coalesces on a similar pedestal in the arena. If the arena is a perfect circle with a diameter of 100 ft. I see the pedestals as being set up in a set of twelve in another perfect circle with a diameter of 60 ft. in the center of the arena. Not that it makes a difference, but in my head, initiative would actually be rolled before the teleportation,and a 1d12 would be rolled to determine the starting position of the player that wins initiative, with their opponent being placed in the pedestal that is exactly opposite theirs. Imagine it like the numbers on a clock. Whichever character wins initiative then determines what their starting number is with the d12 roll (since d12's don't get much love). If it's 5 their opponent would be teleported to position 11.
I realize that does give the martial a sort of advantage, knowing, at the very least, where the caster starts position. We can throw that out if you like, but if the arena is a perfect circle, and the opponents start exactly 60' feet away from each other, a case could be made that the characters would have a very strong idea where the opponent is anyway, even if they entered invisible.
Anything else I'm missing, for our fight?
Might be that ElMustacho wants to actually create the "campaign" for the Arena and we can move the discussion there for our bout, and for any future bouts. I'd certainly be up for being on one of the teams for a later bout as well, if anyone else is still interested in that?
Yes Anzyr, words do have meaning - we use them as a means of communication.
Definition of slave in English:
noun
1(Especially in the past) a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them:
1.1A person who works very hard without proper remuneration or appreciation:
by the time I was ten, I had become her slave, doing all the housework
1.2A person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something:
the poorest people of the world are slaves to the banks
she was no slave to fashion
1.3A device, or part of one, directly controlled by another:
[AS MODIFIER]: a slave cassette deck
You say a simulacrum is not a slave and yet it actually manages to fulfill the criteria of all four definitions of slave in the Oxford English Dictionary.
For the record it is a valid proposal that an intelligent creature that looks, acts and thinks like a person to be a person. If a simulacrum can 'survive' in the absence of its creator then it can be considered to be alive. Lol. The debate over whether it is a person or not is far more interesting that the circular endless arguments here about a caster martial disparity.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Link to prd.1) I actually meant this:** spoiler omitted **Where is that from?
Ah, so it's an alternative subsystem-type thing offered as a variant option in Ultimate Campaign. Might be worth keeping in mind for the later Multi-Level Team Series ("MLTS"?), but for the CRB-only 1v1, it's off limits. For the CRB duel, we'll go with things as-written (which as affirmed in a CRB FAQ, means that crafted items count their Cost, not Price, toward calculating WBL).
For the record, wizardly monster summoning spells are also a form of slavery.
Regarding ithe fact that simulacrum is an illusion - if the creature is capable of thought and is permanent then I don't really see the distinction.
Ah, so it's an alternative subsystem-type thing offered as a variant option in Ultimate Campaign. Might be worth keeping in mind for the later Multi-Level Team Series ("MLTS"?), but for the CRB-only 1v1, it's off limits. For the CRB duel, we'll go with things as-written (which as affirmed in a CRB FAQ, means that crafted items count their Cost, not Price, toward calculating WBL).Link to prd.1) I actually meant this:** spoiler omitted **Where is that from?
That's works for me. Do you want to decide the level or you prefer to let the fate decide by rolling 2d10?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Simulacrum = slavery
Slavery = evil act
Wizard + evil act = hordes of screaming pitchfork wielding commoners banging on your door as van Helsing sets fire to your house and then coup de gras you in the head.Some spells are designed to be used against PCs not by them. Arkelion is ace though I love it when Jiggy said we may not see Arkelion wizards in every game... May not... Because of system mastery and how the other players are. Ha ha.
Rather than respecting your DM and the general courtesy of not treating your gaming group as your own personal playground. A character in our group who brought Arkelion along would generate a lot of laughs for a session. If he did it the following session then he would politely be asked to leave.
Simulacrum isn't slavery, it's an object you own.
Hoardes of screaming pitchfork wielding commoners are the kind of thing this character would (if they were evil) use to build their skull throne to the skull god if they didn't already consider themselves a deity.
And summon monster (if not used to summon evil monsters), isn't evil either. If it was, deities who were all about freedom wouldn't let you summon monsters, why would they, it'd be against their creed. You're talking about things that by rules aren't evil, you're just saying they are.
Also I can agree that certain spells are generally intended for NPCs, but that doesn't mean they can't be used by PCs. Really, examples of that are more like needlessly specific ones, but that's up to interpretation, so it's subjective.
No one's saying they're going to run Arkelion, as I stated early, this character is theoretical optimization. No one SHOULD let Arkelion into their game, it's a thought experiment. Hell, if someone wanted to try running them in my game, I'd say they had to show the process of snagging the demon just to make sure everyone else in the party was cool with it.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Casting create water might offend the elemental fire gods, causing them to send fire elementals to punish the offender. Every time you cast create water, roll 1d6. If the result is 1-3, the DM causes the fire gods to be angered, and an elemental swarm spell (fire elementals) is manifested in the area, with all of the elementals targeting the caster.
That's totally within the rules and is obviously a logical consequence of your actions. Much as casting simulacrum or summon monster automatically makes you a slaver, probably changes your alignment to evil, and summons hordes of pitchfork-wielders to do you in (I can only assume they have levels in the Angry Mobster PrC, to make them a credible threat). It has nothing to do with stealth-nerfing casters by DM fiat.
Ah, so it's an alternative subsystem-type thing offered as a variant option in Ultimate Campaign. Might be worth keeping in mind for the later Multi-Level Team Series ("MLTS"?), but for the CRB-only 1v1, it's off limits. For the CRB duel, we'll go with things as-written (which as affirmed in a CRB FAQ, means that crafted items count their Cost, not Price, toward calculating WBL).Link to prd.1) I actually meant this:** spoiler omitted **Where is that from?
Wait, what? When figuring magic items against WBL it's the item's cost, not price that is figured? Can you point to that FAQ Jiggy? Also, you didn't answer my previous questions. :)
N Jolly, totally agree with the fate of pitch fork wielding peasants - those guys are toast - though the inquisition won't like that.
However an intelligent creature considered to be an owned object is the definition of a slave!
Having complete control of something does not mean it is not capable of thought. The simulacrum is at least 'partly' real. It is not a computer or hacksaw it has skills, feats, the same stat points and is clever enough to use high level magic and craft items.
What is the definition of a person. In the oed it requires you to be a human being which I guess would piss the elves of a fair bit. What is the creature type of a simulacrum?
Not sure I've seen any convincing arguments against so far.
The other thing you're overlooking is that Fighter vs. Wizard shouldn't be an Arena Fight. It should be a dungeon crawl, showcasing all the things that Wizards do that mundanes don't.
And let's face it, the Fighter just can't handle half the things a Wizard can. Unless the challenge bleeds, or it's a door that needs battering down, The Fighter just don't have the capability to remove an obstacle in their path.
A well built Lore Warden might disagree with that.
Dip that Lore Warden into a few levels of unchained rogue or shadow dancer he becomes very versatile outside of combat.
Given the flavor description, one would presume that a simulacrum is a construct, but that doesn't actually seem to be the case.
I'm guessing it matches the creature that is being copied. Incidentally I'm not suggesting that we stop casters using summoning spells or ever using simulacrum. Just thay factories of simulacrum crafting you magic items or throwing intelligent summoned creatures heedlessly into overwhelming odds every encounter COULD be considered to be something a good character should think about. ; P
EDIT I'm not grasping at straws. I'm posing a philosophical question about the use of simulacrum and maybe suggestion that Arkelion type power levels are inherently evil. After all, the good elf high mages end up sacrificing themselves to save their communities or create mythals.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now people are arguing that Simulacrum is slavery to justify how casters aren't all that powerful... The grasping at straws is getting stronger and stronger.
Just thay factories of simulacrum crafting you magic items or throwing intelligent summoned creatures heedlessly into overwhelming odds every encounter COULD be considered to be something a good character should think about. ; P
Or those are things that COULD be fixed in the rules, so that it's clear what the limitations are. Imagine if your total CR worth of magical minions was limited by your Charisma or number of ranks in Knowledge (the planes) or whatever.
|
|
I'm guessing it matches the creature that is being copied. Incidentally I'm not suggesting that we stop casters using summoning spells or ever using simulacrum. Just thay factories of simulacrum crafting you magic items or throwing intelligent summoned creatures heedlessly into overwhelming odds every encounter COULD be considered to be something a good character should think about. ; P
EDIT I'm not grasping at straws. I'm posing a philosophical question about the use of simulacrum and maybe suggestion that Arkelion type power levels are inherently evil. After all, the good elf high mages end up sacrificing themselves to save their communities or create mythals.
Isn't there somewhere in the pathfinder lore that states summoned creature are just copies of a creature, and not the actual manifestation. I mean I know in 3.5 you were summoning an actual creature (fiendish codex talked about how demons loved being summoned), but in PF it's just a copy.
If not, let's start the coalition for the fair treatment of magically created creatures, or CFTMCC for short.
Good and evil are far more flatly defined in in PF because not everything has to be a philosophy lesson about the eternal battle of light vs dark. Nothing Arkelion is doing qualifies as evil. Maybe applying some real world standards might change that, but by PF rules, Arkelion is as neutral as a bag of non evil sand.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah that would work Kirth too.
Lemmy, I don't think it's 'people' it's just me. Lol.
'I'm not using it to justify how casters aren't all powerful' I'm using it to justify why not all casters should use simulacrum as par for the course.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But that particular point wasn't a rules issue to begin with; it was an alignment issue. Capping your magical minions wouldn't resolve the question of "is this slavery?"
I disagree -- to me, the whole slavery issue seemed like it was being tacked on in an effort to limit the effectiveness of those spells on the sly, rather than just limiting them outright.
Well using magic jar to possess a free willed creature and taking control of its body is pretty bad...
It's frowned on in game of thrones, Jessica Jones definitely isn't cool with it.
Let me put it another way. If I dig a 200 ft pit and place a blade barrier at the bottom then command intelligent summoned creatures - hound archons say - to jump in the pit one by one as the other watch - would that be considered evil? Does it matter if the creatures are copies if they are capable of intelligent thought, emotions and feeling pain?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not "limiting their effectiveness" so much as it's saying "this doesn't happen in a vacuum; what are the consequences?" At least that's how it looks to me.
Kind of like casting create water!
I disagree -- to me, the whole slavery issue seemed like it was being tacked on in an effort to limit the effectiveness of those spells on the sly, rather than just limiting them outright.
Pretty much.
And if we want to go that route, then not every Fighter should use swords, because stabbing people is evil. Therefore, every time a Fighter stabs someone, his alignment shifts to evil and a mob of pitchfork-wielding paladins shows up and smites them.
But of course... These contrived pseudo-arguments are only used against casters.
Seriously, though, when you cast summon monster and the critter "dies," it really just goes back to its home plane. It's like it lost a "life" in a video game. Following that logic, they're not the real critters, just ephemeral manifestations with the same stats. Likewise with simulacra -- I suspect they have no creature type because they're illusions, not creatures. YMMV.
Or making several hundred pages of house rules to try and hard-code the answer to every conceivable problem into the game system.
The good news is that 600 pp. of houserules now takes the place of half of the core rulebook, plus the APG, ARG, ACG, and PU -- mostly as a consequence of fixing a lot of system-wide problems -- so I've also substantially reduced the total page count of the game at the same time as solving problems. That's a lousy model for sales, so I wouldn't recommend it to Paizo, but it's a workable method for creating a coherent and playable game.
Except they are intelligent... And capable of free thought?
Stabbing someone is not evil if they are trying to stab you or innocent people. Come on, you can do better than that,
I'd be interested if someone has a response to my hound archon murder pit of pain. Saying something is a copy isn't very convincing if has the same capabilities. Video game characters don't generally have alignments - got to love Baldurs Gate.
Simulacrum are 'partly real' I guess which part is important but it is a part that gives the creature an intelligence of 17+ and wisdom/charisma scores. If we were talking about animal intelligence creatures then okay (I would say it's still pretty bad) but intelligent hound archons screaming their final moments on this plane.
Are simulacrum affected by spells? Enchantments? Necromancy spells?
EDIT: I'm not sure what a pseudo arguments are Lemmy. I think you are missing the point.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Wait, what? When figuring magic items against WBL it's the item's cost, not price that is figured? Can you point to that FAQ Jiggy? Also, you didn't answer my previous questions. :)
Items purchased or found as loot just go by price. For items you crafted yourself, you count the cost rather than the price. That's the whole point of spending the feat (and, for many casters, jumping through hoops to pump their Spellcraft skill).
Also, I thought I'd answered your questions; which ones did I miss?
For hit points, does that include taking the +1 per level for a favored class bonus, or taking a feat like toughness?
For teleporting in, I had this crazy dream last night the teleportation took place almost via Star Trek. The character stands on a pedestal in the antechamber, and then coalesces on a similar pedestal in the arena. If the arena is a perfect circle with a diameter of 100 ft. I see the pedestals as being set up in a set of twelve in another perfect circle with a diameter of 60 ft. in the center of the arena. Not that it makes a difference, but in my head, initiative would actually be rolled before the teleportation,and a 1d12 would be rolled to determine the starting position of the player that wins initiative, with their opponent being placed in the pedestal that is exactly opposite theirs. Imagine it like the numbers on a clock. Whichever character wins initiative then determines what their starting number is with the d12 roll (since d12's don't get much love). If it's 5 their opponent would be teleported to position 11.
I realize that does give the martial a sort of advantage, knowing, at the very least, where the caster starts position. We can throw that out if you like, but if the arena is a perfect circle, and the opponents start exactly 60' feet away from each other, a case could be made that the characters would have a very strong idea where the opponent is anyway, even if they entered invisible.
Anything else I'm missing, for our fight?
Might be that ElMustacho wants to actually create the "campaign" for the Arena and we can move the discussion there for our bout, and for any future bouts. I'd certainly be up for being on one of the teams for a later bout as well, if anyone else is still interested in that?
These. :)
The good news is that 600 pp. of houserules now takes the place of half the core rulebook, plus the APG, ARG, and ACG, and also fixed a lot of system-wide problems, so I've also reduced the total page count of the game at the same time as solving problems.Unless you've replaced literally everything in those books - from the sections on alignment to the encumbrance rules to the listing of every single spell and magic item to the combat rules in their entirety to the listings for what the six basic ability scores are, etc. - then you haven't really taken the place of those books, and so haven't reduced the total page count of the game.
See bolded word above. And, yes, the descriptions of the attribute scores, and how to generate them, and so on are all in there. Also alignment, and how it's handled differently for mortals vs. for outsiders. And combat rules. And how to build spells using metamagic feats. And how to design and price magic items.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
For hit points, does that include taking the +1 per level for a favored class bonus, or taking a feat like toughness?
You can spend your FCBs and feats as you see fit.
For teleporting in, I had this crazy dream last night the teleportation took place almost via Star Trek. The character stands on a pedestal in the antechamber, and then coalesces on a similar pedestal in the arena. If the arena is a perfect circle with a diameter of 100 ft. I see the pedestals as being set up in a set of twelve in another perfect circle with a diameter of 60 ft. in the center of the arena. Not that it makes a difference, but in my head, initiative would actually be rolled before the teleportation,and a 1d12 would be rolled to determine the starting position of the player that wins initiative, with their opponent being placed in the pedestal that is exactly opposite theirs. Imagine it like the numbers on a clock. Whichever character wins initiative then determines what their starting number is with the d12 roll (since d12's don't get much love). If it's 5 their opponent would be teleported to position 11.
That sounds like Hunger Games. But anyway, if it's a circular floor and we're guaranteed to be opposite each other, what's the point of the randomly-selected spots?
I realize that does give the martial a sort of advantage, knowing, at the very least, where the caster starts position. We can throw that out if you like, but if the arena is a perfect circle, and the opponents start exactly 60' feet away from each other, a case could be made that the characters would have a very strong idea where the opponent is anyway, even if they entered invisible.
Doesn't seem like an issue to me. Let the "spawn points" be known precisely, should be fine.
Anything else I'm missing, for our fight?
Not that I can think of at the moment.
Might be that ElMustacho wants to actually create the "campaign" for the Arena and we can move the discussion there for our bout, and for any future bouts. I'd certainly be up for being on one of the teams for a later bout as well, if anyone else is still interested in that?
How about you go ahead and create the discussion or recruitment thread, and he and I (and anyone else interested in watching) can show up at their leisure?
Blackwaltzomega. Does it matter what school of magic created it, it is intelligent, wise, charismatic and capable of feeling emotions and pain. These are permanent creations not figments lasting a few hours. The spell is a shadow so partly creates a real creature. The lesser simulacrum is even capable of independent free will
Phantom steed is a very bad example as the it is actually a creation spell that creates a 'quasi real horse' for a period of time not an illusion. I would say chopping your steeds head off Gregor Clegane style is pretty nasty. I would not have a problem with you chopping your quarter staff in two. See the difference? I'm not a lot of players do.
You are right that the murder pit is different to t-Rex summons. However it explores the concept of if the creature is a copy does how you treat it matter. I would say yes. The extent to which you would explore this in the game would depend on how far the character took it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How about you go ahead and create the discussion or recruitment thread, and he and I (and anyone else interested in watching) can show up at their leisure?
For those that want to leave the C/M disparity talk behind, and join the fun of figuring out the arena logistics, come on over there and join us. :)
I get the distinct feeling you never thought of the spell this way until you were in danger of losing an internet argument.
Not every discussion is about winning or losing. I know how I feel about the Caster - Martial disparity argument that started this thread. However, I know that several posters N. jolly, Anzyr and Kirth certainly challenge me to look at the game in a different way and give me new ideas to take back to my table as a player
They put forward a position and respond to the challenges.
I have posted several times that I consider wizards to be extremely powerful if viewed in lab settings. What I'm questioning here is if there is another way of looking at some of the super spells that are responsible for a large proportion of caster super power.
You can either engage with the position or not, but attacking the poster seems pretty unhelpful. It certainly doesn't challenge the position I made.