Martial: Take the 'Leadership' feat. Make your cohort a caster. 'Disparity' eliminated.God, this again. Why do people keep saying this?
Caster: Take the 'Leadership' Feat. Make your cohort a caster. 'Disparity' continued if not increased.
I think he was joking... The argument is too terrible to be serious.
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The circumstances of play? Here's the circumstances of play:
• My sorceress flying invisibly over to the hostage and DDoor-ing him to safety under the noses of the baddies, followed next round by my martial allies trying to fight their way past the enemies to get to the other hostages and stepping on the fire traps along the way (the traps I didn't even know were there because I flew over them).
• My brother's cleric saying "Oh, it's gonna take us a couple days to get to the site? The day before we get there, I call up my deity and ask what we're likely to face, then the next day prepare spells that will specifically help with those obstacles." Meanwhile the martials in the party just carry their standard gear.
• The martials in the party saying "Look out, it's a golem! No help from the casters on this one!" Then my wizard conjures an extradimensional pit that it almost can't help but fall into, and the oracle blasts its hapless carcass with (Su) powers that don't care about SR.
• A party member magically peers through the wall and sees a cultist working on the wake-the-BBEG ritual, guarded by some mooks; also sees that the door provides a choke point so that the guards can keep us from disrupting the ritual. So I just DDoor the party right up into the cultist's face and wreck him in the surprise round.
• The forest is nasty and forces Fort saves every X amount of time while we travel in search of survivors, so the druid turns into a gargantuan creature and lets all the slowest people ride on her back, halving the number of Fort saves we all have to make.
• Someone attacks the ooze, and discovers that doing so splashes them with CON drain. My cleric walks up and teleports the ooze to Hell. And then we magically cure the CON drain.The list goes on. And those are all real stories from actual games.
"The circumstances of play"? That's exactly the thing that casters have a near-monopoly on getting to interact with.
Let's do this Clue-style. Sure it could have happened that way...
But it also could have happened this way...
•The baddies made their Perception checks to notice your sorceress, since her spellcasting wasn't Silent, and proceeded to shoot her out of the sky with readied actions that several of them had taken. Worse, since she just got one of the hostages out of there, the rest of the baddies realized something was up, and started slaughtering the other hostages. Well done.
Are you serious? What kind of an idiot flies into the room with the baddies, sits still for a round so they can ready "if she casts a spell" attacks, and then casts invisibility? No, you go invisible while you're still in the next room, so that even if they already know you're there, they're not in a position to ready against your spellcasting. I never presented a target.
•Your brother's cleric's commune spell only gave yes or no answers, along with the occasional "unclear." While he might have gotten the occasional five-word answer, that really didn't help very much, and his spells ended up being not very useful. Meanwhile, the martials' all-purpose gear worked just fine.
Right, because getting to ask 11 yes-or-no questions of your lawful-good, not-interested-in-screwing-you patron deity has a real chance of not being helpful. I guess maybe if the player is terrible at asking relevant questions (sort of like the player who's terrible at deciding when to go invisible, above).
•Your wizard had already expended his extradimensional pit on the previous encounter, and your oracle only had one use of their supernatural ability left. The golem proceeded to butcher said oracle after getting hit with it.
Right, because I don't prep extra slots of my most powerful/versatile spells, don't carry pearls of power just in case, don't have a bonded item to let me cast any spell in my book without spending a slot just in case I do get into a pinch, and the oracle and I just spam our abilities at whatever moves instead of using any sort of common-sense-level threat assessment.
•After DD-ing into the room, you can't take any other actions, so your character gets killed during the surprise round by the enemy characters that can still act during it, since they perceived your not-Silent spellcasting through the wall. But nice job getting the rest of the party there.
How do the enemy guards kill me during the surprise round when I show up encircled by my party? Or are we again assuming an incompetent player who either didn't know he'd have no actions left after teleporting or else intentionally made himself as open as possible when he went in? (Also, the peek through the wall was completely silent. Plus, you know, on the other side of a thick stone wall, 20 feet from the closed door. Just how good are those mooks' ears?)
•As a Gargantuan creature lumbering through the forest, the druid kicks up enough debris that it creates a cloud that reaches high enough that the characters riding on its back are still subject to Fort saves.
Were you not reading? They were already still subject to Fort saves. It's just that the Mammothmobile had a faster speed than some of the slower PCs, so we spent less time in the forest, which equates to fewer saves.
•Your cleric walks up to the ooze and tries to plane shift it. The ooze makes it save, and your cleric takes CON drain from touching it in addition to having failed, and will likely be the ooze's first target on its turn.
Right, because oozes are great at making DC 20+ Will saves. But in the event of that 5% likelihood occurrence, guess what? Next person in initiative was another cleric, with another plane shift prepped. And if it got a second natural 20, then we both have another slot prepped anyway. And if it makes all four natural 20s and actually does have to get killed conventionally, the casters are still the only ones capable of dealing with the CON drain.
Those are the circumstances where the casters don't have anywhere near a monopoly on anything. Sure, all of those are situational, but that's sort of the point: everything is situational, and there's nothing about your list versus my list that makes any one of them more or less plausible than the other.
I can't even comprehend how you could think your versions are even remotely plausible for reasonably intelligent players.
Wow. You go to sleep for awhile and suddenly there's a ton of posts. Let me catch up here:
Can I say as an even larger diversion to this conversation that this is all a rules legal character, nothing about the master of the grand cycle is outside what anyone else can do. Like none of this is 'custom items' or anything like that, Arkalion for all their power hasn't custom researched and created any spells (which would be pretty fitting for a mage of such power), or anything like that, things you'd expect of a character of this power.
Most of all, this is all PRE MYTHIC, meaning that even in paizo's realms of power, there's a higher ceiling.
Sorry Anyzr, I just conceptually love this character.
Thank you very much.
Optimization guides (at least mine) are made for the purpose of helping someone reach their design goals, whatever those may be. If that design goal is to be impossibly strong, pick all the highest options you can. If that design goal is to instead have an interesting and suboptimal character that needs more powerful options to overcome their base mechanical shortcomings, ace. Hell, if someone wants to say "I'll make a character out of all the worst options!", an optimization guide can help with that as well, since we do all the work of pointing out things that may not be valuable. We also note when an option that seems good isn't, helping people avoid having to rebuild characters for failing to meet their design goals.
The optimization guides are great. My Beastmorph Vivisectionist has made good use of your Alchemist one. People need to remember that guides are just that - guides. They are tools to help you.
Also, on a side note I finally worked out a build that would kill him. If I use the same kinda crazy favorable rule mongering that body does I could even do so in one round which amuses me. Not sure if I should post the build or not...
Arkalion does not rely on favorable rule mongering. It relies purely on RAW. Unfortunately, RAW the Dweomercat cub won't be able to attack the body, as the caster of the spell is the demon body. Arkalion's actual body is not the caster, not is it Arkalion (at the moment). Futhermore, even assuming that did work, because Arkalion's Body is subject to the Minimus Containment version of Binding and kept on a separate Tzitzimitl. So even then the cub appears next to the Tzitzimitl (and begins to fall) and can't attack the object in it's possession.
And of course all of this is moot if I were to update Arkalion, since now that Occult Adventures is out, Arkalion would be using Greater Possession.
Let's do this Clue-style. Sure it could have happened that way...
And it did. The end.
No, it actually did happen that way in Jiggy's games. It could have happened another way, but it didn't.
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Right, because your deities are always invested in everything you're doing and are always as helpful as they could possibly be. Wow is that an unnuanced view of divine politics; this isn't an issue of asking terrible questions, it's an issue of the GM having a terrible understanding of how gods function.
The "correct" view being, of course, that the gods exist to nerf spells that are only taking up space in the Core Rulebook and creating complications for you as the DM?
If spells like contact other plane and vision aren't meant to yield useful information, wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just remove them from the rule book? Rather than provide them and then assume it's "obvious" to everyone that they're not supposed to work?
Ooze has s@$* tier will save, got rid of him with will save spell. 95% of the time, that happens. Jiggy even gave us some background info showing that the other cleric also had plane shift, requiring a double 20 from this ooze.
So the more likely result is in fact Jiggy's.
There's a reason why spells like contact other plane have things like a percentage chance of the god out-and-out lying to you baked right into their effects.
And yet you seemed to be telling us that, even when the dice indicate a truthful answer, the spell should provide a wrong one (or no answer at all) if you (the DM) want it to. So there are two hurdles to get past: the dice that make the gods not provide info, and if you clear that, the DM that makes the gods not provide info.
I'm very happy to concede that the game works fine if the DM constantly nerfs the casters by fiat to make it happen. You don't have to dress it up as having a "nuanced view of divine politics," though. Just come right out and be honest about what you're doing -- working against the rules to get the game to work.
Right, because they have bad saves that means that they'll always fail every Will-based save on anything but a natural 20. Every single time. Details don't matter; if it's a Will save, an ooze-type creature will fail it 95% of the time.
Against pretty much all of the oozes in the Bestiary I, that's how the math works. Sure, the DM can mysteriously jack the oozes' Wisdom up to 20 to give them a sporting chance, but again, that's actively fighting the rules to get the game to work.
Right, because they have bad saves that means that they'll always fail every Will-based save on anything but a natural 20. Every single time. Details don't matter; if it's a Will save, an ooze-type creature will fail it 95% of the time.
And no, the more likely result is in fact mine: that the cleric saves his spell while the martials shoot the ooze from a distance.
Probably, yes. A cleric with Wis 18 casting Plane Shift is a DC 19. I did a spot check of high level oozes in the bestiary, and didn't find one with a Will Save better than -2.
Edit: Or what Kirth said. ninja'd!
Well, sure, you can DM-nerf the casters under control, and DM fiat that the martials get to do everything cool, and all is honey-dorey. But in these debates, people are arguing that, "Gee, wouldn't it be nice if the rules themselves led to that kind of game play, instead of the DM having to force it in that direction?"That's rather reduction ad absurdum isn't it? There's a big middle ground between "strict adherence to the RAW" and "DM nerfing fiat," which doesn't require the DM having to "force" anything. By that same token, the people who don't see the point of this debate don't care about "the rules themselves" providing a solution, because oftentimes they find a solution to already be present in the part of the game that the rules don't cover: the circumstances of play.The circumstances of play? Here's the circumstances of play:
• My sorceress flying invisibly over to the hostage and DDoor-ing him to safety under the noses of the baddies, followed next round by my martial allies trying to fight their way past the enemies to get to the other hostages and stepping on the fire traps along the way (the traps I didn't even know were there because I flew over them).
• My brother's cleric saying "Oh, it's gonna take us a couple days to get to the site? The day before we get there, I call up my deity and ask what we're likely to face, then the next day prepare spells that will specifically help with those obstacles." Meanwhile the martials in the party just carry their standard gear.
• The martials in the party saying "Look out, it's a golem! No help from the casters on this one!" Then my wizard conjures an extradimensional pit that it almost can't help but fall into, and the oracle blasts its hapless carcass with (Su) powers that don't care about SR.
• A party member magically peers through the wall and sees a cultist working on the wake-the-BBEG ritual, guarded by some mooks; also sees that the door provides a choke point so that...
I once had a 10th-level wizard that slew 700 martials in under 5 minutes.
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I'm also very happy to concede that there's a severe disparity between casters and martials if the DM constantly buffs divination spells to make them full-proof providers of exactly what the caster wants to know every single time.
You don't need to buff them. If we use them exactly how they're written, multi-questions spells allow you, by judiciously selecting questions as "checks" against other questions, to get a pretty accurate picture despite the occasional false answer or non-answer.
Against pretty much all of the oozes in the Bestiary I, that's how the math works. Sure, the DM can mysteriously jack the oozes' Wisdom up to 20 to give them a sporting chance, but again, that's actively fighting the rules to get the game to work.You keep making up situations and then attributing them to the people you're debating. I'd recommend not doing that if you want the conversation to work.
Were you not the one claiming that oozes don't fail Will saves except on a 20? Boosting their Wis is the easiest way to accomplishing that, but, sure, there can be others. So, for the "conversation to work," do tell which method you're using.
I agree, by the way, that it's really dumb to waste a valuable plane shift on a mindless ooze. But doing that will get the player killed all on his own, without me as DM needing to help it along!
Reductio ad absurdum again.
Wait, you do realise RAA is a legitimate argumentative form, right?
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Who needs falling Paladins when a wizard and a fighter square off.
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I think some people need to take a step back and take a better look at this topic.
Caster/Martial Disparity is real.
Pathfinder is leaps and bounds better in this regard than 3.5 Edition. But the fact is any casting classes with access to 9th spell progression are better suited to altering their surroundings, altering the narrative, and providing situations that can throw a campaign into disarray than any martial.
This is not to say that is the case for most or all games. It's just that caster's have more opportunity than non-casters to alter how the game is played.
In most games you might not see Arkalion-Class Wizards. It really depends on the system mastery of the player involved and how his friends are at playing Pathfinder. But it doesn't stop the fact that he was made just using the rules provided. The issue is real.
Things like Blood Money, Simulacrum, Limited Wish, Wish, Geas, Contact Other Plane, Scrying, Clone, Gate are the main issues.
That and the number of spells that either don't care about saving throws or still punish a target when they make a save.
They are highly powerful spells with little to no restrictions. It's difficult for a martial character to keep up with that kind of power.
Warning the following is anecdotal evidence.
I was playing a Mythic Iron Gods campaign and i played a Wizard going into Technomancer. I intentionally downplayed my abilities so as to not cause problems.
I multi-classed, i didn't use spells to their potential, i made sub-optimal choices, and even then i kept up with the rest of my party.
I went 3rd Investigator(Empiricist)/5th Wizard(Exploiter)/5th Technomancer. Mythic Trickster Tier 3
Party Comp
Samurai/Paladin of Sarenrae Mythic Champion Tier 3
Shaman Mythic Heirophant Tier 3
Gunslinger Mythic Marshall Tier 3
Slayer/Sorcerer/Arcane Archer Mythic Trickster Tier 3
While my party members were reacting to danger i was busy setting up a counter-intelligence organization like SHIELD to counter the Technic League.
I used Lesser Simulacrum to create copies of humanoids loyal to me to serve as guards in a base under Torch. I bought a few scrolls of Simulacrum to copy myself a few times to set up a magic item production facility using Craft Wondrous Item to just mass produce what i needed or wanted. I made use of Craft Construct to make a small army of animated full-plate to guard my clones, i made an Alchemical Golem to ride around in to protect myself. I warded my underground base with layered magical protections, i made a clone of myself should i die, i set up a scry and fry room with a crystal ball, all of this while playing a normal game. I setup a permanent demi-plane to sleep inside of for safety, just because i could. I started at level 1 and just planned ahead and i made it possible.
I even copied my other party members and had my simulacrums outfit them with magical gear. It was over the top. Between me and the Shamman we could literally go where we wanted, when we wanted, and had viable intel on what would be there via repeated divinations.
Since it was mythic rules as well i even began construction of a Colossus but retired my character to NPC status because things were way to easy for me and i was overshadowing the other players.
All of that starting from level 1 ending at Level 13. I expended most of my wealth to do all of it but i didn't really need much money to stay viable. I was able to spend more wealth on that stuff since i had item creation feats for magic and tech.
That was with me trying not to be the best. If i tried i would have looked more like Arkalion.
What martial character can do anything like that just by leveling up and being themselves?
And don't say Leadership because a Wizard with Leadership with another Wizard as a cohort just makes things even worse.
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Couple of things on this latest train of dialogue:
The ooze did in fact need a natural 20 to save (this was confirmed by the GM after I had committed to the action). Additionally, the CON drain splash only happened if you damaged the ooze. My cleric was completely safe. And then there's still the fact that the poor sap who did get drained wasn't looking to the martials to cure it.
You seriously think that the situation is predicated on having turned invisible after entering the room? Because given that the guards are A) living in a world where magic is rampant, and B) in a high-stakes situation (e.g. actively guarding hostages), then it's not hard to imagine them readying an action to shoot an unfamiliar spellcaster, which is what they detected when they Perceived you.
And they can shoot through walls too? Because if not, then I don't get how this is in any way a rebuttal to the "cast my spells in the other room" situation.
I don't actually remember exactly which spell my brother used on the way to the dungeon. Pretty sure it was not contact other plane; I think it was either divination or commune. If the former, then it had an 81% chance of yielding "useful" (explicit in the spell) information, and the caster would know if it failed (also explicit in the spell). If the latter, then he gets to ask 11 yes-or-no questions that, per the spell, are correct to the best of the deity's knowledge and if "yes" or "no" would be misleading, a more specific answer is given. Reading these spells as being every bit as helpful as I suggested they were does not require interpreting them as infallible tell-alls or anything absurd like that. They're not perfect, but they're consistently useful—just like the situation I presented.
There's more, but I'm not sure it's worth the time anymore.
I'll play in the tournament because I want to see what will happen. And to those of you who say it is pointless because casters win: think of it as an opportunity to prove yourselves right and watch epic combat. Or, you never know, you could be wrong.
Fair rules would be (Open to debate of course):
1. There would be several tournaments of different levels and party sizes for proper results.2. The Caster Team would only be allowed to pick from classes that have full 9 level casting and prestige classes that boost casting.
3. The Melee Team must only choose from classes (or archetypes) that do not provide any spell casting. If a class like paladin grants spell casting at 4th, then you may take up to 3 levels of it. Prestige classes you qualify for may be taken freely.
4. Full WBL for both teams. Assume you can buy any item in any book, but no crafting "special" items.
5. The arena should be a circle with a 200 foot radius. Each team starts at opposite ends.
6. Neither team will see it's opponents character sheets before battle.
7. A neutral bystander/judge will be on hand to arbitrate disputes and monitor character sheets.
8. You win when everyone on your opponents team is dead, or outside the arena by choice. If you do end up outside the arena, you have one turn to get back inside it.
9. The arenas walls are considered to be indestructible.
10. Another plane counts as outside the arena.
I had many of these same thoughts last night whilst pondering as well. I don't know that you need to make it 200 feet, but I wouldn't argue with that if that were the choice. Definitely need to have a third party arbiter GM who approves the character sheets, and stands as a referee for rules decisions. Letting the opponent see the character ahead of time is obviously detrimentally dumb because it tells them what to prepare in those three rounds of taking potions, etc.
As this specifically affects the combat between Jiggy's wizard, and my fighter, I want to make sure that he agrees with all of this. I had thought, too, of putting an actual ceiling on the arena. Like having it in a huge cave underground. I also want to make sure that we are still agreed on being teleported into the arena at an exact distance of 60' apart.
Anybody want to volunteer to be the arbiter GM? I'm wondering if I shouldn't just actually start up a PbP campaign thread, and recruit the GM?
Help! Thoughts?
Saving throws are weird... At mid/high levels, they are actually pretty easy to make, but they often have deadly consequences if you fail and/or will still screw you up even if you succeed on your saving throw...
And that's before mentioning spells that don't give a f+$@ about saving throws.
As much as I like the idea of a general PbP Pathfinder Arena, the only real way to make a comparison of martials vs casters is to take two groups, one which only allows characters of no more than 4th level spell progression (IE, Fighters up through Paladins), and another group with doesn't have anyone less than 6th level spell progression (ie, Summoners through Wizards), and run them through the same AP. Preferably one of the tougher ones, I'm not certain what the consensus on that would be. Possibly Wrath of the Righteous without giving any PCs Mythic Tiers. ;)
Martial: Take the 'Leadership' feat. Make your cohort a caster. 'Disparity' eliminated.God, this again. Why do people keep saying this?
Caster: Take the 'Leadership' Feat. Make your cohort a caster. 'Disparity' continued if not increased.
Plebians.
Take Leadership to get a someClass-x/Noble-Scion10 ally. Proceed to have your Noble Scion use Greater Leadership.Now your Noble Scion has a Noble scion.
Dawg I heard you like Noble Scions.
Proceed with iterative loop to acquire a swarm of wealthy attendees.
Then have a load of them recruit straight wizards.
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Martial: Take the 'Leadership' feat. Make your cohort a caster. 'Disparity' eliminated.God, this again. Why do people keep saying this?
Caster: Take the 'Leadership' Feat. Make your cohort a caster. 'Disparity' continued if not increased.
Plebians.
Take Leadership to get a someClass-x/Noble-Scion10 ally. Proceed to have your Noble Scion use Greater Leadership.
** spoiler omitted **
Now your Noble Scion has a Noble scion.
Dawg I heard you like Noble Scions.Proceed with iterative loop to acquire a swarm of wealthy attendees.
Then have a load of them recruit straight wizards.
Pathfinder Entourage Edition!
A party of Orc Untouchable Spell Eating Blood Ragers using Combat patrol and Stand Still. I'd sure hate to be caster in that arena. Between the good saves from rage and superstitious along with spell resistance and fast healing that's tough one considering the high amounts added to cast defensively and spell breaker going off constantly. Spell Sundering anything the cast through out and rage cycling. It would be interesting see if this theory craft would work.
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1. There would be several tournaments of different levels and party sizes for proper results.
Probably a good idea, but more than I'm personally ready to commit to.
2. The Caster Team would only be allowed to pick from classes that have full 9 level casting and prestige classes that boost casting.
Sounds reasonable, though for this current 1v1 fight I'd like to stick to fighter/wizard.
3. The Melee Team must only choose from classes (or archetypes) that do not provide any spell casting. If a class like paladin grants spell casting at 4th, then you may take up to 3 levels of it. Prestige classes you qualify for may be taken freely.
See above.
4. Full WBL for both teams. Assume you can buy any item in any book, but no crafting "special" items.
Do you mean "custom"?
5. The arena should be a circle with a 200 foot radius. Each team starts at opposite ends.
I actually like the idea of a 60ft starting distance so the martials can charge in round 1 if they want.
6. Neither team will see it's opponents character sheets before battle.
Naturally.
7. A neutral bystander/judge will be on hand to arbitrate disputes and monitor character sheets.
Not to mention pre-game audits. Heck, we could even have a whole panel rather than one judge.
8. You win when everyone on your opponents team is dead, or outside the arena by choice. If you do end up outside the arena, you have one turn to get back inside it.
Or permanently incapacitated, such as via petrification or extreme stat loss.
9. The arenas walls are considered to be indestructible.
Might need adjustment; what about burrowing, earth glide, stone shape, etc?
10. Another plane counts as outside the arena.
Why does #8 say "by choice"? Shouldn't ring-outs (including by means of plane shift) be a viable tactic?
I don't know that you need to make it 200 feet, but I wouldn't argue with that if that were the choice.
Likewise.
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Wow, given the argument on this subject and how invasive the problem seems to be... perhaps it would be better just to cut out vanilla casting entirely. More and more I am starting to think a magic system such as Spheres of Power is better then all this hassle involving how powerful individual spells are.
Geez, this is crazy how much and how far this goes.
That Arkelion guy presented earlier in the thread seems to possess several apparent errors.
One was the ability scores. It looked like the poster was adding bonuses on top of the magic jar'd body's ability scores.
Magic jar replaces many of your stats. Things like enhancement bonuses form magical items would work if worn by the host body, but things like inherent bonuses to ability scores affect your ability scores, and are not transferred to the host body's ability scores.
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I think he was joking... The argument is too terrible to be serious.Martial: Take the 'Leadership' feat. Make your cohort a caster. 'Disparity' eliminated.God, this again. Why do people keep saying this?
Caster: Take the 'Leadership' Feat. Make your cohort a caster. 'Disparity' continued if not increased.
Not at all. The most common version of the 'disparity' claim is that casters can do all kinds of things that martials can't. First example in this thread... the caster teleports away to drink mojitos while the martial is stuck there. Not true if they have access to spell-casting. Nor does a caster with a caster cohort invalidate this... in that case all they've gained is more spells per day and possibly a wider variety of spells. However, since we're told that high level casters are all powerful ANYWAY you can't really get 'even MORE all powerful'. :]
Yes, it was tongue in cheek... but only because I think the martial/caster disparity is silly to begin with. It basically boils down to, 'non-casters are not good at casting!' That's difference, not disparity.
I'll play in the tournament because I want to see what will happen. And to those of you who say it is pointless because casters win: think of it as an opportunity to prove yourselves right and watch epic combat. Or, you never know, you could be wrong.
Fair rules would be (Open to debate of course):
1. There would be several tournaments of different levels and party sizes for proper results.2. The Caster Team would only be allowed to pick from classes that have full 9 level casting and prestige classes that boost casting.
3. The Melee Team must only choose from classes (or archetypes) that do not provide any spell casting. If a class like paladin grants spell casting at 4th, then you may take up to 3 levels of it. Prestige classes you qualify for may be taken freely.
4. Full WBL for both teams. Assume you can buy any item in any book, but no crafting "special" items.
5. The arena should be a circle with a 200 foot radius. Each team starts at opposite ends.
6. Neither team will see it's opponents character sheets before battle.
7. A neutral bystander/judge will be on hand to arbitrate disputes and monitor character sheets.
8. You win when everyone on your opponents team is dead, or outside the arena by choice. If you do end up outside the arena, you have one turn to get back inside it.
9. The arenas walls are considered to be indestructible.
10. Another plane counts as outside the arena.
I had many of these same thoughts last night whilst pondering as well. I don't know that you need to make it 200 feet, but I wouldn't argue with that if that were the choice. Definitely need to have a third party arbiter GM who approves the character sheets, and stands as a referee for rules decisions. Letting the opponent see the character ahead of time is obviously detrimentally dumb because it tells them what to prepare in those three rounds of taking potions, etc.
As this specifically affects the combat between Jiggy's wizard, and my fighter, I want to make sure that he agrees with all of this. I had thought, too, of putting an actual ceiling on the arena. Like having it in a huge cave underground. I also want to make sure that we are still agreed on being teleported into the arena at an exact distance of 60' apart.
Anybody want to volunteer to be the arbiter GM? I'm wondering if I shouldn't just actually start up a PbP campaign thread, and recruit the GM?
Help! Thoughts?
I'll do the GM.
I think I'll place some other rules, just to better define the details.
Some that came to mind are the following (different from the listed):
1) Standard WBL. 1 crafting feat increase it by 25%, 2 by 50%, 3 or more have no other effect. (remember that Master Craftsman is a feat, and its limits allow to get an additional 50% on WBL).
2) The arena is sphere with a radius of 100 foot. The lower hemisphere is filled with earth/dirt/stone and the higher is air.
3) The teams are at least 60 foot distant from each other, every member can "spawn" wherever possible.
4) If the sum of the remaining teammates can't free a character from a crippling condition (such as flesh to stone or death), that character is removed from the arena. Its belonging vanishes.
Maybe I'll think something else, but that's it.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'll do the GM.
Do you mean for my and MendedWall's duel, for the proposed multi-level team series, or both?
1) Standard WBL. 1 crafting feat increase it by 25%, 2 by 50%, 3 or more have no other effect. (remember that Master Craftsman is a feat, and its limits allow to get an additional 50% on WBL).
What's the point in houseruling how the crafting feats work?
2) The arena is sphere with a radius of 100 foot. The lower hemisphere is filled with earth/dirt/stone and the higher is air.
Might it be better as a cylinder?
3) The teams are at least 60 foot distant from each other, every member can "spawn" wherever possible.
"At least"? If we put them too far apart, it screws (non-archery) martials.
4) If the sum of the remaining teammates can't free a character from a crippling condition (such as flesh to stone or death), that character is removed from the arena. Its belonging vanishes.
That's probably a good idea.
That Arkelion guy presented earlier in the thread seems to possess several apparent errors.
One was the ability scores. It looked like the poster was adding bonuses on top of the magic jar'd body's ability scores.
Magic jar replaces many of your stats. Things like enhancement bonuses form magical items would work if worn by the host body, but things like inherent bonuses to ability scores affect your ability scores, and are not transferred to the host body's ability scores.
Right. Which is why the possessed body itself has had it's inherent ability scores buffed (after it's possessed of course). It's not like Arkalion is going to run out of Wishes you know?
I've checked it multiple times, so errors are unlikely. The only one I've seen is that the level 19 Feat Maximized Spell is supposed to be Heighten Spell. Many thanks to CWheezy for catching the issue. And I suppose it should be pointed out that Arkalion was created when Courageous still worked on all morale bonuses, so there's some numbers that need adjusted.
If there's something else unclear, feel free to ask, but try to keep in mind the crazy amount of resources at his disposal.
I'll do the GM.Do you mean for my and MendedWall's duel, for the proposed multi-level team series, or both?
1) Standard WBL. 1 crafting feat increase it by 25%, 2 by 50%, 3 or more have no other effect. (remember that Master Craftsman is a feat, and its limits allow to get an additional 50% on WBL).What's the point in houseruling how the crafting feats work?
2) The arena is sphere with a radius of 100 foot. The lower hemisphere is filled with earth/dirt/stone and the higher is air.Might it be better as a cylinder?
3) The teams are at least 60 foot distant from each other, every member can "spawn" wherever possible."At least"? If we put them too far apart, it screws (non-archery) martials.
4) If the sum of the remaining teammates can't free a character from a crippling condition (such as flesh to stone or death), that character is removed from the arena. Its belonging vanishes.That's probably a good idea.
0) Let's say both.
1) I actually meant this:Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn't just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Example: The Character Wealth By Level table states that an 8th-level character should have about 33,000 gp worth of items. Using the above 25% rule, Patrick's 8th-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item is allowed an additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted wondrous items. If he uses his feat to craft items for the rest of the party, any excess value the other PCs have because of those items should count toward Patrick's additional 8,250 gp worth of crafted items.
2) A cylinder is fine, it's less math.
3) If an archer wants to stay out of melee let it be. If a wildshaping druid wants to eat faces let it be. We can say that teams have two starting lines; one the first at 60ft from the opponents, and the other at 100ft.
4) Nothing to answer.
EDIT - Correction of broken spoiler.
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Not at all. The most common version of the 'disparity' claim is that casters can do all kinds of things that martials can't. First example in this thread... the caster teleports away to drink mojitos while the martial is stuck there. Not true if they have access to spell-casting. Nor does a caster with a caster cohort invalidate this... in that case all they've gained is more spells per day and possibly a wider variety of spells. However, since we're told that high level casters are all powerful ANYWAY you can't really get 'even MORE all powerful'. :]
Yes, it was tongue in cheek... but only because I think the martial/caster disparity is silly to begin with. It basically boils down to, 'non-casters are not good at casting!' That's difference, not disparity.
There a vast amounts of things in the game that can only be done via magic. So duplicating the same powers as a wizard costs a lot more for a fighter. If the only way to get a fighter close to a wizard is to play a fighter AND a wizard, that's kind of proving the point.