Charge is stated to be a Full-Round action. Nowhere is stated that is a Standard, so, for me, you should find a place where it says is considered a Standard in order to hold that position. Another different thing would be that somewhere was stated that is a Standard, but there isn't such a place.
There is a place, which probably contributes to the confusion, that says that if, and only if, you are restricted to a Standard Action, you can Charge, but it never says that then it turns the status of Charge into a Standard Action. Just that, in that case, you can Charge.
The same happens with Pounce and Full-Attack. Would you say that Pounce-Full-Attack is not a Full-Attack just because you can perform it, if you are staggered, with a Standard Action? No. It would still be a Full-Attack, although you would do it using a Standard. So, you would get an extra attack with a Haste.
I understand that an interesting positioning is to attain a more balanced melee-vs-casters enviroment, but that is not RAW.
Imagine the FAQ did not have the explanatory part, it would have been as follows:
FAQ: Can I Ready a Charge? No. (Ever? Sorry, answer is still nop.)
And that is how we should read it. The rest, the explanation, I agree is not needed and confusing.
It would have been different if it has been as follows:
FAQ: Can I Ready a Charge? No, although if...
Or...No, but in that special situation where...
Or...Yes, but only if...But we got a "No.". That should suffice.
Thankfully, Partial Charge (which is not a full round action, and instead only a Standard) DOES qualify, under certain circumstances.
We've been through the dead characters thing. Every character that has the dead condition also has the dying condition and so cannot take any actions. The only screwy things are the special cases such as smelling salts which would technically allow a dead character to act for one round.
Back on topic, I find the idea that a full round action taken as a standard action still counts as a full round action to be a worrisome ruling though. There are a lot of effects that let you do longer actions as shorter actions. Do all of those actions also still require and qualify as their longer versions too? Also, I haven't seen anything in the rules that explicitly states the standard action charge still counts as a full round action.
Charge and Partial Charge are two different things.
One is full round, one is a standard action.
One allows for 2x move, the other does not.
I just want to point out "Partial Charge" isn't a term in the rules.
All of it is listed under "Charge"
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and other weapons with the brace feature deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
Which the FAQ says you can't ready.
Also note that no where in charge does it change the action from Full-Round to a Standard Action.
It only says;
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn
It doesn't change charging to a Standard Action thats why its not compatible with a Ready Action. It even says that in the FAQ.
Ready: Can you ready an action to charge?
No. The rules for a charge state that you can take a charge action as a standard action if you are "restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn". Although the ready action text states that you can take a standard action, it does not meet the requirements of the text in the charge action. (See Core Rulebook pages 198 and 203)
So i mean if you ignore the FAQ and Rhino Charge then i guess you can. But its a houserule.
Also note that no where in charge does it change the action from Full-Round to a Standard Action.
It's not in charge. It's in the rules for full round actions.
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions detail which actions allow this option.
Edit: And bringing up Rhino Charge just causes a reference to the old Prone Shooter feat. It's not as if we haven't had a feat that let you do something you could already do before.
We've been through the dead characters thing. Every character that has the dead condition also has the dying condition and so cannot take any actions. The only screwy things are the special cases such as smelling salts which would technically allow a dead character to act for one round.
Back on topic, I find the idea that a full round action taken as a standard action still counts as a full round action to be a worrisome ruling though. There are a lot of effects that let you do longer actions as shorter actions. Do all of those actions also still require and qualify as their longer versions too? Also, I haven't seen anything in the rules that explicitly states the standard action charge still counts as a full round action.
Charge and Partial Charge are two different things.
One is full round, one is a standard action.
One allows for 2x move, the other does not.
I just want to point out "Partial Charge" isn't a term in the rules.
All of it is listed under "Charge"
** spoiler omitted **...
*sigh*
Yep.
As written, you cannot move your base move and attack with a -2 to your AC and a +2 to hit as a readied action.
You can, however, ready a casting of Wish.
So, at least things are balanced.
Yes, I would ignore that FAQ completely, because of what I just pointed out in the lines above this one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm less interested in ignoring the FAQ than in pointing out that its reasoning is unsound and/or unintelligible.
Those conditions put you in a situation where you can charge as a standard actionNo they don't. It says you have to be in a situation where your round is RESTRICTED TO standard actions.
Staggered is not restricted to standard actions. It allows both standard or move actions, thus it is not restricted to just standard actions. So it does not qualify.
And I am beginning to suspect that in fact, no other situations in the game qualify either. Which if true, means we can all just pack up and go home, because none of that text matters anyway if it applies in 0% of situations.
By that flawed logic the entire line of the rules is utter nonsense and is an impossibility to occur.
I prefer to interpret the rules in such a way that they function instead of interpreting them in such a way that they do not function.
That tends to make more sense.
I'm less interested in ignoring the FAQ than in pointing out that its reasoning is unsound and/or unintelligible.
Yeah it seems kinda funny. Ah well, caster-players will do what they have to do to maintain the current status quo, heaven forbid a fighter still be able to contribute to combat if he has had his action economy negatively affected...
Those conditions put you in a situation where you can charge as a standard actionNo they don't. It says you have to be in a situation where your round is RESTRICTED TO standard actions.
Staggered is not restricted to standard actions. It allows both standard or move actions, thus it is not restricted to just standard actions. So it does not qualify.
And I am beginning to suspect that in fact, no other situations in the game qualify either. Which if true, means we can all just pack up and go home, because none of that text matters anyway if it applies in 0% of situations.
By that flawed logic the entire line of the rules is utter nonsense and is an impossibility to occur.
I prefer to interpret the rules in such a way that they function instead of interpreting them in such a way that they do not function.
That tends to make more sense.
To be clear, that was in reference to a poster saying that you couldn't ready a charge, because a ready action wasn't limited to standard actions, since you can also ready other action types. We then pointed out that the other common effects that limit you to a standard action also give you a choice of action, so that poster's argument was invalid.
Also note that no where in charge does it change the action from Full-Round to a Standard Action.It's not in charge. It's in the rules for full round actions.
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions detail which actions allow this option.Edit: And bringing up Rhino Charge just causes a reference to the old Prone Shooter feat. It's not as if we haven't had a feat that let you do something you could already do before.
Not quite. See the text below.
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions.
Some full-round actions do not allow you to take a 5-foot step.
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions detail which actions allow this option.
Here is an example of a Full-Round Action being used as a Standard Action.
Restricted Withdraw: If you are limited to taking only a standard action each round you can withdraw as a standard action. In this case, you may move up to your speed.
It clearly tells you it can be used as a Standard Action.
Charge doesn't have that language.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
It uses different wording. It never makes Charge a Standard Action.
Thus you can't ready a charge just like the FAQ said and leaving Rhino Charge a functioning feat.
So, RAW, can ANYTHING limit you to ONLY a standard action?
Is there, in fact, a situation where a charge can be performed as anything other than a full round action?
@Brain in a Jar: Omissions like that make it vague enough to argue RAW vs RAI, but since we already know the RAI, I won't bother arguing it.
So, RAW, can ANYTHING limit you to ONLY a standard action?
Is there, in fact, a situation where a charge can be performed as anything other than a full round action?
being a zombie
I do find it interesting that you can ready a withdraw, but not a charge. "When an enemy gets within reach of me, I withdraw." Good for a healer in certain situations.
@Brain in a Jar: Omissions like that make it vague enough to argue RAW vs RAI, but since we already know the RAI, I won't bother arguing it.
Thinking its an omission is just an opinion.
It's not vague. Nothing in the rules change a Charge Action into a Standard Action.
Charge has a specific entry that says you are still allowed to Charge if limited to a Standard Action. That is not the same as it being changed to a Standard Action; as shown in the Withdraw action.
The FAQ makes complete sense.
So unless you have Rhino Charge you can't ready a Charge.
I do find it interesting that you can ready a withdraw, but not a charge. "When an enemy gets within reach of me, I withdraw." Good for a healer in certain situations.
Yeah it is an interesting option. I never even realized it before doing some research on it for this topic.
being a zombieSo, RAW, can ANYTHING limit you to ONLY a standard action?
Is there, in fact, a situation where a charge can be performed as anything other than a full round action?
So a Zombie can ready a charge.
So, OP, yes, you can ready a Charge. If you are a Zombie.
There we go.
Just for funsies, if you wanted an idea for the counter argument regarding omissions, it would have included the bit in monk suggesting that only monks can use unarmed strikes "with his hands full".
being a zombieSo, RAW, can ANYTHING limit you to ONLY a standard action?
Is there, in fact, a situation where a charge can be performed as anything other than a full round action?
So a Zombie can ready a charge.
So, OP, yes, you can ready a Charge. If you are a Zombie.
There we go.
No.
Staggered (Ex): Zombies have poor reflexes and can only perform a single move action or standard action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round as a charge action.
Zombies can't ready a charge either.
Those conditions put you in a situation where you can charge as a standard actionNo they don't. It says you have to be in a situation where your round is RESTRICTED TO standard actions.
Staggered is not restricted to standard actions. It allows both standard or move actions, thus it is not restricted to just standard actions. So it does not qualify.
And I am beginning to suspect that in fact, no other situations in the game qualify either. Which if true, means we can all just pack up and go home, because none of that text matters anyway if it applies in 0% of situations.
That is an extemely pedantic reading of that condition considering you can pretty much always take a move action in place of a standard action (per core Rulebook p181). With staggered, you are limited to standard actions, it just happens to incorporate the inherent substitutability of the move action.
being a zombieSo, RAW, can ANYTHING limit you to ONLY a standard action?
Is there, in fact, a situation where a charge can be performed as anything other than a full round action?
So a Zombie can ready a charge.
So, OP, yes, you can ready a Charge. If you are a Zombie.
There we go.
No.
Staggered (Ex): Zombies have poor reflexes and can only perform a single move action or standard action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round as a charge action.Zombies can't ready a charge either.
So, the text in the Charge entry talking about charging when you have only a standard action should be removed from the book.
Got it. I'm getting my scissors now, make sure you all do the same.
No, wait, use a marker, there's stuff on the other side of the page.
Funny how that mistake made it past, what, six printings of the CRB?
Someone should let Paizo know, that's just embarrassing. Shoddy writing.
It's almost like swift/free actions didn't exist at the time the charge rules were written, and someone forgot to update the text under Charge to continue to allow what previous characters used to be able to do...
Just for funsies, if you wanted an idea for the counter argument regarding omissions, it would have included the bit in monk suggesting that only monks can use unarmed strikes "with his hands full".
Interesting.
I also found something interesting under the "Actions in Combat" chart.
Charge is listed with a number 4 next to it.
4 May be taken as a standard action if you are limited to taking only a single action in a round.
The FAQ for Ready a Charge would still stand.
But it brings to light a difference in wording concerning restricted actions. Here it says limited to a single action where elsewhere it says limited to a standard action.
|
To be clear, that was in reference to a poster saying that you couldn't ready a charge, because a ready action wasn't limited to standard actions, since you can also ready other action types. We then pointed out that the other common effects that limit you to a standard action also give you a choice of action, so that poster's argument was invalid.
On reviewing the wording, you're absolutely right. So I retract those statements.
So, the text in the Charge entry talking about charging when you have only a standard action should be removed from the book.
Got it. I'm getting my scissors now, make sure you all do the same.
No, wait, use a marker, there's stuff on the other side of the page.
Funny how that mistake made it past, what, six printings of the CRB?
Someone should let Paizo know, that's just embarrassing. Shoddy writing.
It's almost like swift/free actions didn't exist at the time the charge rules were written, and someone forgot to update the text under Charge to continue to allow what previous characters used to be able to do...
I don't understand what your saying or why.
The text in the Charge entry doesn't say you can charge as a standard action; it says "If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge".
Their is a difference. As Seen in the Withdraw Action.
You don't need to be sarcastic it doesn't matter who is right or wrong. If you really feel the need to continue to be sarcastic that's your issue and I'll just ignore you.
I'm here to have a discussion of the rules. Not to deal with sarcasm and other less than savory behavior.
So we seem to all agree:
It's okay to ready an action to warp reality with a 9th level spell, but not to run across the room and try to poke someone with a stick.
Does that sum it up correctly?
Does that sum it up correctly?Not really, no.
No? If you can't ready a charge, then what I said is totally correct.
I'm sure the developers intended it that way.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No? If you can't ready a charge, then what I said is totally correct.
No, you said it was 'okay'. I took that to be a value judgement, not a statement of ability. If you meant "You can ready an action to warp reality with a 9th level spell, but not to run across the room and try to poke someone with a stick." then your statement is correct.
I'm pretty sure no one here thinks it is desirable that you can ready a wish spell but not a charge. But this is the Rules Forum, where we talk about what is and not what should be.
Does that sum it up correctly?Not really, no.No? If you can't ready a charge, then what I said is totally correct.
I'm sure the developers intended it that way.
Rhino Charge allows it.
I don't really care about martial caster disparity. Probably because most of my games don't go much above level 8. I'm sure for some people that's a big deal.
I believe the developer reason for this ruling is because they didn't want people charging around corners at will. Consider this possibility: "I ready an action to charge my target when there is an open charge lane." Then I use my remaining move action to move where I have an open charge lane triggering my charge. Rhino charge lets you do this, which makes it a fairly nice feat.
I don't really care about martial caster disparity. Probably because most of my games don't go much above level 8. I'm sure for some people that's a big deal.
I believe the developer reason for this ruling is because they didn't want people charging around corners at will. Consider this possibility: "I ready an action to charge my target when there is an open charge lane." Then I use my remaining move action to position where I have an open charge lane triggering my charge. Rhino charge lets you do this, which makes it a fairly nice feat.
This is very easily replaced with "you may ready a charge if it is the only action you take in a turn", which is my houserule.
Actually, I really don't think you can ready an action with a trigger you can activate by yourself by moving after readying.
Ready action states:
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.Of course it works, if open lane is formed as a consequence of other characters moving/dying. But even then you can't charge around corners.
In that case, the readied action would take place as soon as your turn is over. So, you'd end your turn and then immediately take your readied action. That does keep you from doing something silly like finishing your move after your trigger though.
Edit: And you'd change the trigger to, "When I end my turn, I charge the target".
Even ruling that way, you could change the trigger to "when the next action is taken", which would effectively be the same as "when my turn is over"
If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character.
That text does imply that the trigger action doesn't have to be part of another character's activities.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Can you ready a partial charge? Absolutely. But only if something is keeping you from taking full round actions.
No, the FAQ forbids readying a charge regardless and goes on to tell you why.
Also, you may have trouble doing a Ready action while staggered, as you can only take one action and doing a Ready is taking two actions.
It only takes a standard action to ready an action.
I prefer to interpret the rules in such a way that they function instead of interpreting them in such a way that they do not function.You prefer to EDIT the rules in such a way that they function, when, as written, they don't serve a function. "Restricted to" never means "not restricted to". The negation of a phrase is not an "interpretation" of it.
Excuse me? You will not tell me how I should interpret the rules, nor do you have the authority to tell that to anybody. I feel like James or I have to tell you this on every single thread you post on, but RAW means rules as written as interpretted. Your interpretation is just as valid, but mine actually means the rules function, so I will continue to play RAW in a way that actually functions as opposed to your overly pedantic and useless interpretation that serves no purpose.
Good catch! But unfortunately, body page text takes precedence over table text in the order of rules operations. So they are in conflict, the table one would have made more sense, but it gets overruled by the text that doesn't make sense.
There is no "conflict". The body page is silent on what kind of action it is, which was taken to mean that it was still a full-round action. The table text would be introducing additional information, which doesn't conflict with the omission of the body text.
.. because if you're restricted to BOTH "standard only" as well as "one action only," there's still zero situations that meet both criteria.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "one action only"?
That is an extemely pedantic reading of that condition considering you can pretty much always take a move action in place of a standard actionI take it you have some other plausible meaning of "restricted to" then? I.e. what exactly is your "non-pedantic" reading of "restricted to standard actions"?
You're trying to say that being restricted to standard actions and move actions (as listed under the staggered condition) is different from being restricted to standard actions. It's not since you can freely substitute a move action for a standard action. Being restricted to standard actions is written differently from being restricted to standard and move actions, but the functional result is actually the same.
Because that is the truth.
That is your interpretation of the truth. Or do you have absolute knowledge?
You're not even wrong. I don't even know why you come to the rules forums because all that you ever do is confuse people. Sometimes I wonder if it's intentional.
If this were a love poem or something designed specifically to flaunt logic, then we could talk, but it's not. It's a technical manual designed to lay out clear rules.
Except the developers, even James Jacobs himself, have said on multiple occasions for a large number of rulings that "It's up to GM interpretation". That rule (or a paraphrase of it) is in the rules dozens of times as well as being all over the boards from official sources. The rules are something created by man. That means it must be interpreted. All language must be. This is not a physics class, there is not always a clearly correct answer. It is up to interpretation, always.
Does that mean that no answer can be wrong? Of course not, there are certain rulings that are crystal clear. But that doesn't mean that there is always a single right answer for every single question. The rules are often ambiguous, contradictory, paradoxical, ect. To say anything else is to deny reality.
It would not make sense that you are unable to ready a charge when you have a full round of actions but be able to do something MORE when you are limited to a standard action. This is not nerfing martials. If it were allowed it would be giving a benefit to someone because of a penalty, this doesn't make sense.
You cannot ready a charge, the FAQ states this clearly by answering "No".
Summary: a penalty should not result in gaining an advantageous option that you could not normally use.