Can I "ready" a charge?


Rules Questions

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Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Paulicus wrote:

The intention is probably that you can never ready a charge, since even a partial one is still combining a move action & attack. Thematically, it makes sense.

And Bruce Lee probably has the feat for it, or at least levels in brawler. :P

The game would be simpler if a charge was a standard action and you could move up to your full normal move (instead of double).

And yes, Bruce Lee is the boss.

Bruce Lee soloed the boss's head enforcer, an army of mooks (one of which was Jackie Chan), and the boss of Enter the Dragon. All without any of his teammates or a spellcaster. Of course he's awesome.

And he succeeded on his bluff check so that he could show off his art of "fighting without fighting".

Of course, the GM pulled a sort of "rocks fall, Bruce Lee dies" in '73. This guy was clearly overpowered.


Chess Pwn wrote:
The rule has been clarified that YOU CAN NEVER READY A CHARGE. Regardless of if a charge would only take a standard action or not, you can't ready it. They have a FAQ answering this very question saying, "NO you can't ready a charge. Even though there are times when a charge is a standard action a readied action still can't hold a charge." Why are people debating this still?

Because they didn't just say "no". They followed it with a bunch of other text that causes the "no" to be debatable.


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Melkiador wrote:
They followed it with a bunch of other text that causes the "no" to be debatable.

*blink*


Melkiador wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The rule has been clarified that YOU CAN NEVER READY A CHARGE. Regardless of if a charge would only take a standard action or not, you can't ready it. They have a FAQ answering this very question saying, "NO you can't ready a charge. Even though there are times when a charge is a standard action a readied action still can't hold a charge." Why are people debating this still?
Because they didn't just say "no". They followed it with a bunch of other text that causes the "no" to be debatable.

The part where they said, "Even though there are times when a charge is a standard action a readied action still can't hold a charge."

Quote:
The rules for a charge state that you can take a charge action as a standard action if you are "restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn". Although the ready action text states that you can take a standard action, it does not meet the requirements of the text in the charge action.

Being limited to only a standard action because of your readied action doesn't meet the requirements of having only a standard action to make a charge in.

Like where is this debatableness coming from?


Chess Pwn wrote:


The part where they said, "Even though there are times when a charge is a standard action a readied action still can't hold a charge."

Where are you pulling the text in quotes from?


Chess Pwn wrote:


Like where is this debatableness coming from?

The rule is silly.

Yes, you can ready a standard action.

Yes, when restricted to a standard action you can make a partial charge. Implying that a partial charge is effectively a standard action.

No, you can't ready a partial charge. Umm.. because.

Say what?


That is what they are saying. Then I quoted the text that says that. Then I reiterated again, more similarly to their word choice, that you can't ready a charge.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Boomerang Nebula wrote:

No, you can't ready a partial charge. Umm.. because.

Say what?

Because when you ready you are not limited to a standard action.

Quote:
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.

Note that it does not say you can ONLY ready a standard action.


Chess Pwn wrote:
That is what they are saying. Then I quoted the text that says that. Then I reiterated again, more similarly to their word choice, that you can't ready a charge.

Are you saying the part in quotes was just your interpretation? The point is that others can read the text from the FAQ and come up with other interpretations. And people like to argue their own interpretations as fact. And that answers the question of why people are debating this.


Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


Like where is this debatableness coming from?

The rule is silly.

Yes, you can ready a standard action.

Yes, when restricted to a standard action you can make a partial charge. Implying that a partial charge is effectively a standard action.

No, you can't ready a partial charge. Umm.. because.

Say what?

A partial charge isn't "effectively a standard action." It's a full round action when you're limited to less than a full round.

EDIT: Also they say right in the FAQ that the readied action doesn't count as a time you're limited to only a standard action that lets the charge be done as a standard action.

Quote:
Although the ready action text states that you can take a standard action, it does not meet the requirements of the text in the charge action.

And what text in the charge action are they referring to? The one they had just quoted.

Quote:
The rules for a charge state that you can take a charge action as a standard action if you are "restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn".


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Boomerang Nebula wrote:

No, you can't ready a partial charge. Umm.. because.

Say what?

Because when you ready you are not limited to a standard action.

Quote:
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
Note that it does not say you can ONLY ready a standard action.

But anytime you are limited to a standard action you could also use it to make a move action. So by your logic you are never limited to just a standard action.


Melkiador wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
That is what they are saying. Then I quoted the text that says that. Then I reiterated again, more similarly to their word choice, that you can't ready a charge.
Are you saying the part in quotes was just your interpretation? The point is that others can read the text from the FAQ and come up with other interpretations. And people like to argue their own interpretations as fact. And that answers the question of why people are debating this.

Hence why I asked you, or anyone, to provide another valid interpretation of the FAQ that opens up this "making 'NO' debatable" idea. Just because people have differing interpretations doesn't make the wrong ones any less wrong.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Melkiador wrote:
But anytime you are limited to a standard action you could also use it to make a move action. So by your logic you are never limited to just a standard action.

In those cases you are using your standard action to take a move action. It's still a standard action.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
That is what they are saying. Then I quoted the text that says that. Then I reiterated again, more similarly to their word choice, that you can't ready a charge.
Are you saying the part in quotes was just your interpretation? The point is that others can read the text from the FAQ and come up with other interpretations. And people like to argue their own interpretations as fact. And that answers the question of why people are debating this.
Hence why I asked you, or anyone, to provide another valid interpretation of the FAQ that opens up this "making 'NO' debatable" idea. Just because people have differing interpretations doesn't make the wrong ones any less wrong.

That's up for them to answer. My guess is that it is because you can be limited to a standard action and then use the partial charge rules to charge.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
But anytime you are limited to a standard action you could also use it to make a move action. So by your logic you are never limited to just a standard action.
In those cases you are using your standard action to take a move action. It's still a standard action.

Maybe some people don't see it that way.

Shadow Lodge

Melkiador wrote:
Maybe some people don't see it that way.

They don't have to. The FAQ forbids readied charge actions anyway.


TOZ wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Maybe some people don't see it that way.
They don't have to. The FAQ forbids readied charge actions anyway.

Again, only if you interpret it that way.


Melkiador wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
That is what they are saying. Then I quoted the text that says that. Then I reiterated again, more similarly to their word choice, that you can't ready a charge.
Are you saying the part in quotes was just your interpretation? The point is that others can read the text from the FAQ and come up with other interpretations. And people like to argue their own interpretations as fact. And that answers the question of why people are debating this.
Hence why I asked you, or anyone, to provide another valid interpretation of the FAQ that opens up this "making 'NO' debatable" idea. Just because people have differing interpretations doesn't make the wrong ones any less wrong.
That's up for them to answer. My guess is that it is because you can be limited to a standard action and then use the partial charge rules to charge.

They say right in the FAQ that the readied action doesn't count as a time you're limited to only a standard action that lets the charge be done as a standard action.

Quote:
Although the ready action text states that you can take a standard action, it does not meet the requirements of the text in the charge action.

And what text in the charge action are they referring to? The one they had just quoted.

Quote:
The rules for a charge state that you can take a charge action as a standard action if you are "restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn".

They could have just said. No, you never can. But the Devs wanted to provide some clarity that they understood the idea of why one would think you could ready a partial charge. So the explained that being limited to choosing a standard or less action for your readied action doesn't meet the condition of being "restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn" for a partial charge.

Shadow Lodge

Melkiador wrote:
Again, only if you interpret it that way.

Well, I can't help you with interpretation. Good day.


TOZ wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Again, only if you interpret it that way.
Well, I can't help you with interpretation. Good day.

Yeah. To be clear I believe the intention is that you can't ready a charge. I'm just answering the side question of why people are debating it.


Melkiador wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Maybe some people don't see it that way.
They don't have to. The FAQ forbids readied charge actions anyway.
Again, only if you interpret it that way.

How else can one interpret, "Can you ready a charge? NO." other than, No, you can't ready a charge?

Nothing in their explanation will change the answer. If there was a time when their answer of NO wouldn't apply they would have used the words, "unless some condition is met, except if such a condition is met, but if this is met you can" somewhere in their response indicating when the general NO wasn't the answer.


Goth Guru wrote:

So if someone tries to charge blindly, it's just a move. Got it.

In Pathfinder 2, a charge has to have a target, or it's not a charge.

According to total concealment rules, you can attack a SUSPECTED target that may have total concealment, by guessing a square where they may be, and then attacking it with an additional 50% miss chance. You don't have to be correct to attempt it. (It doesn't spell out "suspected target" but that's the only way it would make sense.)

Since a charge is an attack (based on the section in the text that defines attacks as anything that harms, hinders, negatively effects, causes any saves, blah blah), that means you can charge into darkness or bushes or a curtain even with no real enemies around, as long as you claim you suspect one, technically.


These arguments do bring up the issue of not being able to charge in a surprise round.

Quote:
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

You're not limited to a standard action there either, just like in a readied action.


Oh. You can't charge when staggered either.

Quote:
Staggered: A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take free, swift and immediate actions. A creature with nonlethal damage exactly equal to its current hit points gains the staggered condition.


@ Chess Pwn

I am not debating what the rule says or even how it should be interpreted. The problem is that the rule does not make sense.

It makes no sense that you can make a partial charge when restricted to a standard action but you can't elect to make a partial charge as a standard action.


There's a lot of stuff like that, hardly unique. Another example is that you can say a command word accidentally (as well as the rest of 2-3 sentences on top of that!) which would as normal speech be part of a FREE action:

Quote:
"A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation."

Yet you cannot say the same command word with the same results intentionally with anything less than a standard action...


sure it does. It makes as much sense as the fact that fly is a 3rd level spell for a wizard instead of a 1st, 2nd, or 4th+. As much as flanking allowing you to get sneak attack. As much as being unable to do a swift action instead of a move or standard. It's just what the rules are.
When you are restricted to a max of a standard action for your turn you can do a partial charge. Hence why staggered and surprise rounds are times you can do a partial charge. You don't have the option of more. But with readied actions, since you are choosing to do a standard action later with a readied action you can't ready a charge, since it's not a standard action. Even if you are staggered you can't ready a charge since it's not a standard action. Because the line, "If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge" doesn't turn it into a standard action. It's still classified as a full-round action, just with a special permission that it can be done when you normally can't do a full-round action.


prd combat wrote:
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions detail which actions allow this option.


Chess Pwn wrote:

sure it does. It makes as much sense as the fact that fly is a 3rd level spell for a wizard instead of a 1st, 2nd, or 4th+. As much as flanking allowing you to get sneak attack. As much as being unable to do a swift action instead of a move or standard. It's just what the rules are.

When you are restricted to a max of a standard action for your turn you can do a partial charge. Hence why staggered and surprise rounds are times you can do a partial charge. You don't have the option of more. But with readied actions, since you are choosing to do a standard action later with a readied action you can't ready a charge, since it's not a standard action. Even if you are staggered you can't ready a charge since it's not a standard action. Because the line, "If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge" doesn't turn it into a standard action. It's still classified as a full-round action, just with a special permission that it can be done when you normally can't do a full-round action.

As far as I know the examples you have chosen are not self contradictory and are therefore not analogous to what we are discussing.


Crimeo wrote:

There's a lot of stuff like that, hardly unique. Another example is that you can say a command word accidentally (as well as the rest of 2-3 sentences on top of that!) which would as normal speech be part of a FREE action:

Quote:
"A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation."
Yet you cannot say the same command word with the same results intentionally with anything less than a standard action...

I agree, those rules are equally silly. It seems these rules were written for the express purpose of limiting the PCs options.


Boomerang Nebula wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:

sure it does. It makes as much sense as the fact that fly is a 3rd level spell for a wizard instead of a 1st, 2nd, or 4th+. As much as flanking allowing you to get sneak attack. As much as being unable to do a swift action instead of a move or standard. It's just what the rules are.

When you are restricted to a max of a standard action for your turn you can do a partial charge. Hence why staggered and surprise rounds are times you can do a partial charge. You don't have the option of more. But with readied actions, since you are choosing to do a standard action later with a readied action you can't ready a charge, since it's not a standard action. Even if you are staggered you can't ready a charge since it's not a standard action. Because the line, "If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge" doesn't turn it into a standard action. It's still classified as a full-round action, just with a special permission that it can be done when you normally can't do a full-round action.
As far as I know the examples you have chosen are not self contradictory and are therefore not analogous to what we are discussing.

There's nothing self contradictory in the charge either. Charge is a full-round action that can be done in a modified way if you're limited to a standard action as the largest action you can take. Nothing is changing it to a standard, hence it doesn't work with readied actions.


Per the rule I quoted above, the charge is taken as a standard action. I suppose you can argue that it is also still a full round. But it is taken as a standard action.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Melkiador wrote:
prd combat wrote:
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions detail which actions allow this option.

But readying an action doesn't give you a second turn. You read an action to cast a spell on your turn in initiative. When the ready trigger happens, you continue your turn performing the ready action standard action.

You have performed a standard and a second standard action on your turn.

You are not limited to a standard action on your turn, in fact you gain a second standard action.


IS there actually any situation in the whole game when you're restricted to only standard actions in a turn?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Crimeo wrote:
IS there actually any situation in the whole game when you're restricted to only standard actions in a turn?
Quote:
Surprise Round: ... each take a standard or move action during the surprise round.
Quote:
Staggered: A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round


Neither of the two examples you just gave are restricted to standard actions. In your same quote:

Quote:
...standard or move action...

In other words, not restricted to standard.


Those conditions put you in a situation where you can charge as a standard action, which is the entire point of this thread. According to the held actions rules, it seems you are only allowed to ready a charge action if you are staggered.


Quote:
Those conditions put you in a situation where you can charge as a standard action

No they don't. It says you have to be in a situation where your round is RESTRICTED TO standard actions.

Staggered is not restricted to standard actions. It allows both standard or move actions, thus it is not restricted to just standard actions. So it does not qualify.

And I am beginning to suspect that in fact, no other situations in the game qualify either. Which if true, means we can all just pack up and go home, because none of that text matters anyway if it applies in 0% of situations.


The FAQ says you can never Ready a Charge. Saying that the explanatory part of the FAQ is difficult to aprehend does not correlate in any form with the fact that to the question: can you Ready a Charge? The answer is a 'No'. Period. It's not a 'No, because...". It's a plain 'No'.

I will try, again, to explain why this happens. Charge is always a Full-Round Action, that, in a special case, charcaters can perform with just a Standard. Is it a Standard when you perform it in that special situations? No, it is still a Full-Round Action, but developers are lenient allowing staggered or surprised or staggerd and surprised characters to perform it nevertheless.

So, can you Ready a Full-Round Action? No. Even if there were some special situations that allowed you to perform that said Full-Round Action to be performed *as* a Standard Action? Answer is still a 'no'. You can not Ready Full-Round Actions, it's not in the list of actions you can Ready.


So many people trying to read the rules in a way that hurts melee characters (no surprise there).

Can you ready a charge? Nope.

Can you ready a partial charge? Absolutely. But only if something is keeping you from taking full round actions.

Staggered, Slowed or Surprise Rounds.

Stop trying to nerf melee so much. Casters can ready a Wish or Miracle, there is no issue with allowing someone to move a bit and make a single attack in melee, especially if they are already restricted in their action economy by outside factors.


What caster can do is irrelevant to the actual question.


Nicos wrote:
What caster can do is irrelevant to the actual question.

Fixating too much on minutia is a bad idea, ignoring how this would interact with the rest of the game is both suggested, and a good idea.


alexd1976 wrote:
Nicos wrote:
What caster can do is irrelevant to the actual question.

Fixating too much on minutia is a bad idea, ignoring how this would interact with the rest of the game is both suggested, and a good idea.

Some questions have clear answers, to some the rules are silent and to some others the rules are confusing and contradicting. Yet, to answer the actual question you must go the the rule or FAQ, not if wizards are allowed to cast two wishes per round or not. The houserule forum is for that.


Nicos wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Nicos wrote:
What caster can do is irrelevant to the actual question.

Fixating too much on minutia is a bad idea, ignoring how this would interact with the rest of the game is both suggested, and a good idea.

Some questions have clear answers, to some the rules are silent and to some others the rules are confusing and contradicting. Yet, to answer the actual question you must go the the rule or FAQ, not if wizards are allowed to cast two wishes per round or not. The houserule forum is for that.

Indeed. Also, there is a point where one must realize that the rules aren't perfect. Many believe (and have offered text showing) that partial charges can be performed in certain circumstances.

Strictly reading the rules disallows this (as you must apparently be restricted to Standard, AND ONLY STANDARD actions-no free actions, no move actions). This is silly. If this is the type of logic being applied, then we can expect you to also make sure that taking the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat does not grant proficiency (it merely removes the -4 penalty to hit)-so any following feats that require proficiency cannot be taken.

Arguing against partial charges (that would only be possible when the character is ALREADY limited by outside factors) is really just an extension of the fear caster-players have that (heaven forbid) a melee character just MIGHT be able to participate in combat.

Sure, maybe reading the rules to allow for partial charges under certain circumstances is a houserule at your table, but yours is not the only table.

Clearly, other people on here don't agree with that.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Surely the rule that dead characters cannot act is a houserule from caster-players aimed at nerfing martals ;-)


The Raven Black wrote:
Surely the rule that dead characters cannot act is a houserule from caster-players aimed at nerfing martals ;-)

Nowhere in the rules does it say Dead characters aren't allowed to take actions, actually, so yes, that WOULD be a houserule. Technically speaking.

It's that kind of stuff that I'm drawing attention to. If people want to argue you can't ready Partial charges because the rules 'clearly' say so, then they need to recognize that other 'clearly' written rules are very very silly...

Think critically, not literally, when reading these rules.


We've been through the dead characters thing. Every character that has the dead condition also has the dying condition and so cannot take any actions. The only screwy things are the special cases such as smelling salts which would technically allow a dead character to act for one round.

Back on topic, I find the idea that a full round action taken as a standard action still counts as a full round action to be a worrisome ruling though. There are a lot of effects that let you do longer actions as shorter actions. Do all of those actions also still require and qualify as their longer versions too? Also, I haven't seen anything in the rules that explicitly states the standard action charge still counts as a full round action.


Charge is stated to be a Full-Round action. Nowhere is stated that is a Standard, so, for me, you should find a place where it says is considered a Standard in order to hold that position. Another different thing would be that somewhere was stated that is a Standard, but there isn't such a place.

There is a place, which probably contributes to the confusion, that says that if, and only if, you are restricted to a Standard Action, you can Charge, but it never says that then it turns the status of Charge into a Standard Action. Just that, in that case, you can Charge.

The same happens with Pounce and Full-Attack. Would you say that Pounce-Full-Attack is not a Full-Attack just because you can perform it, if you are staggered, with a Standard Action? No. It would still be a Full-Attack, although you would do it using a Standard. So, you would get an extra attack with a Haste.

I understand that an interesting positioning is to attain a more balanced melee-vs-casters enviroment, but that is not RAW.

Imagine the FAQ did not have the explanatory part, it would have been as follows:

FAQ: Can I Ready a Charge? No. (Ever? Sorry, answer is still nop.)

And that is how we should read it. The rest, the explanation, I agree is not needed and confusing.

It would have been different if it has been as follows:

FAQ: Can I Ready a Charge? No, although if...
Or...No, but in that special situation where...
Or...Yes, but only if...

But we got a "No.". That should suffice.


Numarak wrote:

Charge is stated to be a Full-Round action. Nowhere is stated that is a Standard, so, for me, you should find a place where it says is considered a Standard in order to hold that position. Another different thing would be that somewhere was stated that is a Standard, but there isn't such a place.

There is a place, which probably contributes to the confusion, that says that if, and only if, you are restricted to a Standard Action, you can Charge, but it never says that then it turns the status of Charge into a Standard Action. Just that, in that case, you can Charge.

prd combat wrote:
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions detail which actions allow this option.


Melkiador wrote:

We've been through the dead characters thing. Every character that has the dead condition also has the dying condition and so cannot take any actions. The only screwy things are the special cases such as smelling salts which would technically allow a dead character to act for one round.

Back on topic, I find the idea that a full round action taken as a standard action still counts as a full round action to be a worrisome ruling though. There are a lot of effects that let you do longer actions as shorter actions. Do all of those actions also still require and qualify as their longer versions too? Also, I haven't seen anything in the rules that explicitly states the standard action charge still counts as a full round action.

Charge and Partial Charge are two different things.

One is full round, one is a standard action.

One allows for 2x move, the other does not.

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