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I now ponder antipaladins on the same stereotypical hair trigger as paladins are (not really supposed to be) on. 'Bob, you didn't kick that puppy ... and then you bought a new scabbard. Not stole, purchased.'
I now ponder antipaladins on the same stereotypical hair trigger as paladins are (not really supposed to be) on. 'Bob, you didn't kick that puppy ... and then you bought a new scabbard. Not stole, purchased.'
Funny. Actually laugh out loud funny, but I think this highlights why so many people get up in arms about the routine Paladin falling questions. Some of it is just ridiculous. Sometimes it takes looking at things in the reverse in order to understand them correctly.
The anti paladin just needs selfish justifications for what he does. "I wasn't in a puppy kicking mood. I do what I want, when I want". "I don't want to attract anymore attention from the law than I have to. I can always go back and steal the money later."
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S*~+ happens, when you dump dexterity.
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The anti paladin just needs selfish justifications for what he does. "I wasn't in a puppy kicking mood. I do what I want, when I want". "I don't want to attract anymore attention from the law than I have to. I can always go back and steal the money later."
"Hey Frank - I need to talk to you about something."
"Sure."
"I saw you out with your girlfriend last night. You were actually treating her like a lady."
"Yeah - I really like her."
"*sigh* That's what I was afraid of. See - you're on the edge of losing your anti-paladin powers."
"Yeah - you're right. I guess I'll have to start treating her like an object."
If might try to answer the OP, maybe instead of falling, they "rise?" It works grammatically anyway.
Fallen=Risen
Falling=Rising
And if the Antipaladin is actually turning good, then we have a literary parallel with an ascended demon, much like the fallen Paladin has the fallen angel trope.
just an idea anyway. I think a champion of evil could be a cool class idea, but the Pathfinder antipaladin is off the mark. CE=/=Code of conduct.
Antipaladins need to go through redemption to "rise". It is not something easy, and will include restitution. Paladins shouldn't fall easily either, but far easier than redeeming an antipaladin.
I'd call it 'fall', because the antipaladin falls from grace.
If an antipaladin's alignment changes to NE or LE, he falls also. Then the term 'rise' only fits if you consider moving into the direction of lawful a rise, too.
To fall just implies you are trying to uphold some standard. Antipaladins have a standard to uphold and so they can fall.
Heh.
...As a GM, I'm seriously leaning in the direction of Paladin being "any Good", and Antipaladin being "any Evil". It... seems to fit better.
I'm similar but feel paladin still shouldn't be chaotic. I don't have strong feelings about anti Paladin's but do feel a chaotic code is a really hard to believe thing.
I'm similar but feel paladin still shouldn't be chaotic. I don't have strong feelings about anti Paladin's but do feel a chaotic code is a really hard to believe thing.Heh.
...As a GM, I'm seriously leaning in the direction of Paladin being "any Good", and Antipaladin being "any Evil". It... seems to fit better.
Chaotic people can believe in a moral code just as fervently as Lawful ones; it's just that the chaotics are deciding on their own code, and not necessarily taking a greater power at their word.
Being chaotic doesn't mean you can't have principles you adhere to.
Correct, but it does mean you can't be a paladin. A paladin, by very definition of the class, is Lawful Good of alignment. You can roleplay a principled fighter who defends the weak, and upholds their own virtuous code, but they aren't paladins.
Chaotic people can believe in a moral code just as fervently as Lawful ones; it's just that the chaotics are deciding on their own code, and not necessarily taking a greater power at their word.I'm similar but feel paladin still shouldn't be chaotic. I don't have strong feelings about anti Paladin's but do feel a chaotic code is a really hard to believe thing.Heh.
...As a GM, I'm seriously leaning in the direction of Paladin being "any Good", and Antipaladin being "any Evil". It... seems to fit better.
That flies in the face of the monks out there who are only lawful because they follow their own code though.
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Let's get this out in the open: Law and Chaos do not have any meaning under the standard D&D rules.
We are aware that especially if you've been playing this game for a long time, you personally probably have an understanding of what you think Law and Chaos are supposed to mean. You possibly even believe that the rest of your group thinks that Law and Chaos mean the same thing you do. But you're probably wrong. The nature of Law and Chaos is the source of more arguments among D&D players (veteran and novice alike) than any other facet of the game. More than attacks of opportunities, more than weapon sizing, more even than spell effect inheritance. And the reason is because the "definition" of Law and Chaos in the Player's Handbook is written so confusingly that the terms are not even mutually exclusive. Look it up, this is a written document, so it's perfectly acceptable for you to stop reading at this time, flip open the Player's Handbook, and start reading the alignment descriptions. The Tome of Fiends will still be here when you get back. … There you go! Now that we're all on the same page (page XX), the reason why you've gotten into so many arguments with people as to whether their character was Lawful or Chaotic is because absolutely every action that any character ever takes could logically be argued to be both. A character who is honorable, adaptable, trustworthy, flexible, reliable, and loves freedom is a basically stand-up fellow, and meets the check marks for being "ultimate Law" and "ultimate Chaos". There aren't any contradictory adjectives there. While Law and Chaos are supposed to be opposed forces, there's nothing antithetical about the descriptions in the book.
That flies in the face of the monks out there who are only lawful because they follow their own code though.Chaotic people can believe in a moral code just as fervently as Lawful ones; it's just that the chaotics are deciding on their own code, and not necessarily taking a greater power at their word.I'm similar but feel paladin still shouldn't be chaotic. I don't have strong feelings about anti Paladin's but do feel a chaotic code is a really hard to believe thing.Heh.
...As a GM, I'm seriously leaning in the direction of Paladin being "any Good", and Antipaladin being "any Evil". It... seems to fit better.
The Lawful requirement on Monks is really stupid, though. You guys realize we're discussing a house rule, right?
I thought we were talking about it being odd that anti Paladin's have a code of being chaotic.
About as strange as that chaotic good god of tradition and racism.
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Heh.
...As a GM, I'm seriously leaning in the direction of Paladin being "any Good", and Antipaladin being "any Evil". It... seems to fit better.
Very early D&D, back to the first OD&D boxed set that had Hobbits rather than Halflings and the 9 alignment grid system, marked Lawful Good as Christian and Chaotic Evil as its opposite. It's a very old assumption.
Look at multiverse cosmology and count the planes too. The same assumption is there. Lawful Good is the goodest good, Chaotic Evil is the evilest evil.
If can be changed, of course, though.
Correct, but it does mean you can't be a paladin. A paladin, by very definition of the class, is Lawful Good of alignment. You can roleplay a principled fighter who defends the weak, and upholds their own virtuous code, but they aren't paladins....I think you missed the part where I said "I'm thinking about allowing NG and CG Paladins in my games".
In your homebrew game that's great for your players if they like it, but, personally, I would never allow this. The alignment requirement for paladins is part of what makes playing those characters so intriguing and sometimes difficult. It's part of, imho, what makes a paladin separate from a fighter that just wants to go around and do good by their own moral code. To me that's like saying, I'm thinking about letting clerics cast any spell from the arcane spell list, because cool.