Oh goody, a Paladin thread. It's only 9 in the morning, perfect time to take a shot.
Only for as long as is absolutly necessary for thegreater good. And only as long as the evil one can keep his self-control, so no baby biting when the Paladin is literally 5ft behind him.
And after the Greater Evil is defeated they split.
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One day, people will fully realize that the associates clause actually doesn't make you fall.
The notion of a paladin falling because of association with evil, probably goes back to at least 2nd edition:
If a paladin should ever knowingly and willingly perform an evil act, he loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably.
The Complete Paladin's Handbook, while optional, sheds light on what is and is not considered to be an "evil act"...
...Because he is duty-bound to suppress evil, a paladin won't tolerate an evil PC. He may take the evil PC into custody, physically restrain him, or demand his expulsion from the party. If all else fails, the paladin severs his ties with the party and go his own way. In any event, inaction is unacceptable...
That book goes on to say:
Any association with an evil-aligned character can be construed as an evil act...
Some might want to focus on the word construed, but The Complete Paladin's Handbook addresses that too:
The paladin avoids even the appearance of impropriety, remaining pure in word, deed, and thought
Now I realize that those are rules from an outdated system and that Pathfinder is a new game with new rules, but old habits tend to die hard. :-)
The thing people forget is that Paladin Code and Associates are two separate blocks.
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How can I redeem evil people if I'm not allowed to be associated with them at all?
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There's a very thorough discussion of the Paladin's responsibilities and limitations in this book, along with expanded rules for redemption/corruption that could really assist in mixed-alignment parties. It's gotten a lot of positive feedback.
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How can I redeem evil people if I'm not allowed to be associated with them at all?
with your sword
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My biggest problem with the discussion of evil party members (with or without paladins) is the assumption a lot of people seem to have that evil (even LE) characters are automatically mother-stabbing, father-raping, baby-eating, backstabbing automatons who can't help but do evil whenever the opportunity presents itself. The idea that evil characters are incapable of loyalty, love, or manners is an odd one to me. One of my favorite characters was a CE serial killer posing as a cleric of Pelor who, despite being an unrepentant murderer, was fiercely devoted to her party members and would never think of doing anything to bring harm upon them. An evil character, particularly a lawful one (being the most likely one to work with paladins), is perfectly capable of interacting rationally and not causing any direct conflict. Sure, if they're dedicated to evil as a concept it might be tough, but a LE cleric of Abadar should have few difficulties working with a LG paladin of the same god...particularly since one might find themselves working under the other in the church hierarchy.
One of my favorite characters was a CE serial killer posing as a cleric of Pelor who, despite being an unrepentant murderer, was fiercely devoted to her party members and would never think of doing anything to bring harm upon them. An evil character, particularly a lawful one (being the most likely one to work with paladins), is perfectly capable of interacting rationally and not causing any direct conflict.
Welp, that's another person that makes the "never associate with" list.
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One of my favorite characters was a CE serial killer posing as a cleric of Pelor who, despite being an unrepentant murderer, was fiercely devoted to her party members and would never think of doing anything to bring harm upon them. An evil character, particularly a lawful one (being the most likely one to work with paladins), is perfectly capable of interacting rationally and not causing any direct conflict.Welp, that's another person that makes the "never associate with" list.
Hard to put someone on the list when you don't know who they are, but more power to you. Or are you saying I made the list because I liked the character? That being the case, you need to lighten up.
Hard to put someone on the list when you don't know who they are, but more power to you. Or are you saying I made the list because I liked the character? That being the case, you need to lighten up.One of my favorite characters was a CE serial killer posing as a cleric of Pelor who, despite being an unrepentant murderer, was fiercely devoted to her party members and would never think of doing anything to bring harm upon them. An evil character, particularly a lawful one (being the most likely one to work with paladins), is perfectly capable of interacting rationally and not causing any direct conflict.Welp, that's another person that makes the "never associate with" list.
I think he was saying your character would be on the list for the above mentioned paladin.
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I think he was saying your character would be on the list for the above mentioned paladin.Hard to put someone on the list when you don't know who they are, but more power to you. Or are you saying I made the list because I liked the character? That being the case, you need to lighten up.One of my favorite characters was a CE serial killer posing as a cleric of Pelor who, despite being an unrepentant murderer, was fiercely devoted to her party members and would never think of doing anything to bring harm upon them. An evil character, particularly a lawful one (being the most likely one to work with paladins), is perfectly capable of interacting rationally and not causing any direct conflict.Welp, that's another person that makes the "never associate with" list.
Ahhhh...
While true, the party was none the wiser. There actually WAS a paladin in the party, and he never had a clue. They all thought she was a LG cleric, rather than a CE rogue with an insane bluff and UMD.
That character was less an example of evil a paladin can work with (although one did), and more an example of my overarching point that evil characters are capable of working in parties without issue.
How can I redeem evil people if I'm not allowed to be associated with them at all?with your sword
'You can sell this for the funds you need to get yourself and your family out of squalor, and perhaps learn an honest, fulfilling trade. May the Dawnflower bless you.'
Seriously, though, Golarion itself has history of Asmodeus and Sarenrae agreeing on something, and allying themselves. On a lesser level, as mentioned earlier, you've got to get among them to try to redeem them. If nothing else, nudging that CE guy into CN territory is doing good.