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Can't believe I forgot to mention Spheres of power.
Spheres of power has a few balance issues in some spheres, but overall is pretty amazing. It allows players to create the magic users they find in media. Magic users who have a "thing" and can do their thing all day. The classes are overall more specialized than vancian magic users in Pathfinder and are significantly less adaptable, which is something that some players prefer since caster supremacy is a common complaint in core PF.
So stating a particular product mentioned, may not place nicely with core classe warrants removal? I state as much, being civil. I didn't bash the product (I actually own it and have bought the subscriptions to both that were put out) and actually don't even have a problem with the product.
I get told to 'not do that' despite the fact the OP was asking what we use 3PP for, yet somehow, I'm the one not being civil? My response was definitely less than civil as I don't exactly like being told to not do something when it wasn't off topic or even remotely disruptive. It was probably more like educational as I actually took the time to explain how the product I bought and have used might not mesh well if just used with the CRB.
You are being a little heavy-handed with the post removals no?
My second post was definitely less than nice, but then again I was the one being told what to do. I think that removing the initial post was too much, it was on topic and it didn't even skirt any of your posting guidelines.
So stating a particular product mentioned, may not place nicely with core classe warrants removal? I state as much, being civil. I didn't bash the product (I actually own it and have bought the subscriptions to both that were put out) and actually don't even have a problem with the product.
Maybe the moderation was a heavy-handed, and maybe the specific comparisons you made were a little heavy-handed, too. I think sometimes you have to accept that the determination of what is or isn't on-topic resides with a human being. Also, you were practically invited to start another thread comparing that product with core martials, so why not do that?
Intentions aside that post was a thread derailer. Due to how Skylancer worded their post it was going to cause a very off topic and tiresome discussion that's been repeated a multitude of times to occur in this fun thread. This thread is about fun, not baiting an argument on class disparity.
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To get this back on topic...
In a current campaign of Rise of the Runelords, another player and myself are testing out Spheres of Power. I normally GM, but the current GM and I really liked the premise for SoP and wanted to give it a go. The ability to use magic all day at a low power level is very empowering, but ultimately not unbalancing.
I have also purchased products for different classes that fit themes I wanted to have present in my homebrew world. Path of Shadow, Path of Iron, Path of War, Ultimate Psionics, Akashic Mysteries, Classes of Neo Exodus: Machinesmith.
This is also when I notice my fondness for "Path of..." titles for Pathfinder. Is it something in the water?
I use Frog God Games adventures to kill as many PCs as I possibly can.
I use FGG adventures to challenge players. I can kill characters just as well in APs. I also buy some small add on stuff like chests, zombies, skellies that give me a variety of things I can use in a game.
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Simple answer: to have fun.
Long answer: They provide new ways, or more interesting ways of doing things. I really enjoy making characters, making NPCs and using weird monsters to challenge players. Thankfully, 3PP materials specialize in this. They are allowed to be experimental and to break boundaries that would be too risky for Paizo.
I don't like how boring many fighty-type characters play, so books like Ultimate Psionics, Path of War, Akashic Mysteries, Alternate Paths: Martial Characters and Dragon Tiger Ox are premium to me. With these kinds of books it is easy to make the exact martial character you envision. You can also find support for cool subsystems, such as performance combat (from Ultimate Combat)in Alternate Paths: Martial Characters.
Similarly, there are many options to enjoy magic. There are magic alternatives that are quite well built, such as Spheres of Power, Akashic Mysteries, Psionics, or Strange Magic. Pathfinder's magic system is also supported very strongly, but in ways that feel balanced. New Paths Compendium provides new concepts for spellcasting such as a good aligned necromancer, and the coveted full 1-20 Theurge class.
Nowadays, every player has easy access to every monster paizo publishes, and even if not intended, meta-gaming will happen at some point. With 3rd party bestiaries and monster templates this is not really an issue. The mystery or sense of wonder from facing a new foe is preserved, since the the player is fighting stuff they never had a way of knowing. Everyone knows what an orc, dragon, or ankheg is. They expect those. A verizal on the other hand? What even is that? Based on its appearance, you'd expect it to start savagely tearing apart the party with gores, bites and tentacles. Instead, you get acid breath, mind control, and offensive teleports.
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Just popping in- thanks for all the LRGG love!
We love DTO too! I had to fight to get the bad dubbing rules in there but afterwards we realized it wouldn't have been a complete product without them ;-)
We have LOTS (400+ pages) more weirdness on the way with Gonzo 2!
Just out of curiosity (not as a 3pp publisher, as a player)- I see a lot of folks talking about subsystems and classes, do people use 3pp races? (I know I've used them from other publishers :-D )
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I'm gonna buy Gonzo 2.... After reading Alternate Paths series I kinda know it's gonna be great.
I use 3PP races. Sometimes they work well with the other presented material, such as in Ultimate Psionics. Other times they fill a niche that needed filling.
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I'm uncertain if you read MY comment as two were removed. I made a joking jab that I believe 3PP to be, on average, unbalanced and ill suited for most games and may have suggested they be put to better use with wobbly furniture.I read the deleted post before it got blasted, and while I won't dredge it back up I'll say that if your intent was to offer critique, it could use more specifics. Context might not be everything but it's certainly the lion's share of the equation. Can't fix a problem if we don't know what it is, and as authors we can be too close to recognize it on our own sometimes.
Savvy? Savvy. Look forward to workin' with ya.
Off-topic: It seems ill-advised to me to determine that something is woefully unbalanced and then use it stabilize your chair, but IANAC (I am not a carpenter).
On-topic: I use 3PP mostly for areas where I don't feel the core rules do a great job. I like to have something published so my players can know the full extent of how it works if it's a player option. So, for example, I have used a 3PP to determine crafting time for alchemical items because the core rules for it seem to scale up beyond what's economically sensible.
Mostly my use of 3PP has been in regards to player and character options on both sides of the GM Screen. I make heavy use of the Tome of Horrors Complete and Path of War, and it's a rare day when at least half the PCs aren't utilizing the maneuver system whether as classes or with the Martial Training feats.
When it comes to adventures and settings they've primarily served more as reading and material to mine from for my own games. Most of the Pathfinder games I've run in the past were original adventures in homebrew worlds. As of now I'm getting a little burnt out on GMing Pathfinder (although I'm still involved in a bi-weekly game), so the material I use in the near future's going to be strongly geared towards the player side of things.
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Just out of curiosity (not as a 3pp publisher, as a player)- I see a lot of folks talking about subsystems and classes, do people use 3pp races? (I know I've used them from other publishers :-D )
A couple years ago before the ARG came out when I ran a pathfinder Freeport game one of the players expressed interest in playing a grippli. I pulled out the Remarkable Races Compendium and he played a Mogogol bard with a banjo. Many Kermit jokes and riffs were made.
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Just out of curiosity (not as a 3pp publisher, as a player)- I see a lot of folks talking about subsystems and classes, do people use 3pp races? (I know I've used them from other publishers :-D )
I only really use 3rd party races if they tie into the mechanics of a new subsystem.
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So far, we've only used them for classes and the rules that come with them. Namely classes that seem balanced, and either haven't been done by paizo, or in our opinion, does that thing better than a like-class in paizo materials. We've not used much 3pp, but I am playing a 3pp class in our main campaign currently.
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I don't tend to use monsters for an absurd reason: Art. Paizo spoiled me when it comes to presenting new monsters with really awesome portraits and the lower quality of most 3pp art turns me off. Like I said, I know it's an absurd reason. Art is expensive as hell to add in to a book, and a monster book is more art heavy than most.
Not an absurd reason at all! In fact, one of the things I'm most proud of with Kobold Press is how much time, effort (and, yes, $$$) we put into top-quality art. We use many of the same artists that Paizo and Wizards uses, and I work extremely hard to make sure the art in a KP product is as awesome as possible.
I think the art in books like Southlands, Deep Magic, and the upcoming 5E Tome of Beasts (since you mentioned monster books) will attest to that :)
I don't tend to use monsters for an absurd reason: Art. Paizo spoiled me when it comes to presenting new monsters with really awesome portraits and the lower quality of most 3pp art turns me off. Like I said, I know it's an absurd reason. Art is expensive as hell to add in to a book, and a monster book is more art heavy than most.
That's one reason I have yet to put out a monster book. I expect a monster book to have a quality illustration for each monster. I also expect a consistent adherence to black-and-white, greyscale, or full color artwork.
I look at 3PP for just about everything from new classes and spells to full blown campaign settings. As a GM I like having options. I look at every thing I buy as a potential toolbox with new toys to add to my arsenal. At the end of the day it's all about making things better for the various projects I have in the back of my mind.
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I want to add that as of recent, I have been doing a lot of reviews at request, so I have seen a plethora of products that I might not have normally purchased (and have enjoyed despite that). I'm not sure that it will impact my future purchases specifically, due to having a significantly smaller budget for books in general, but it does change the way that I view and recommend books for sure.
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Just out of curiosity (not as a 3pp publisher, as a player)- I see a lot of folks talking about subsystems and classes, do people use 3pp races? (I know I've used them from other publishers :-D )
I do! I use them a lot in fact. Buying 3rd party races will inevitably lead to having more than you can ever use, but I consider it worth it. Even if you only use 1/3rd of the races, you still got fun from them. Heck, using 1/3rd of a crunch book is still quite noteworthy. I know I usually end up using less than that in most cases. Everyone picks favorite stuff from every book. Though I do believe race themed books are more likely to appeal to GMs than to players, since NPC building is something we do a lot.
I love 3PP races because they tend to break the mold in some way, or allow a previously unplayable core monstrous race (Centaur, dragon, medusa etc.) to be played. That is always a good thing.
I only really use 3rd party races if they tie into the mechanics of a new subsystem.
This is definitely a big reason to use them. I wouldn't consider it the only reason, but it is a very strong reason. Core races have large advantages when using core systems. Lots of bonuses vs core magic effects, racial traits that buff up spellcasting, and awesome access to racial feats and traits that enhance spellcasting.
I see nothing wrong with 3PP races supporting their companies subsystem, and I commend DSP's psionic races in particular for finding balanced ways to do this. Core races still have reasons to run psionic classes, but psionic races do get very cool extra goodies.
It was actually a third party campaign setting that drew me to Pathfinder in the first place. (Mostly the draw of it letting you play some very unusual races.)
That sounds pretty interesting. Which setting was it?
I don't tend to use 3pp races myself - when doing worldbuilding I tended to make my own races from scratch rather than see if any 3pp had put out something that matched with what I wanted or needed - but since my game rulings are "anything on d20pfsrd is fine to use, anything else bring to me for approval", I have had one or two pop up by player request due to being available on that site.
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I GM-&-play for 2 Pathfinder tabletop groups. Both groups, probably due to my charismatic influence (Lol), are extremely 3PP-friendly and welcoming of just about everything published in 3PP for PF and 3.5. That doesn't mean everything gets accepted. We do some hardcore vetting with emphasis on game-mechanic design balance and thematic appropriateness. So as a result, we modify a lot of 3PP stuff to fit our unique campaign parameters. The words "ban" and "nerf" are non-existent at our game tables. For if a player or GM really, really wants something for a good reason, we'll make it work even if it's broken or sucks. :-) I can't stress to you enough how important game-mechanic balance is to us. Just in case you might think we sound like we run "free-for-all"-style gaming tables. It really helps that we have a lot of 1 and 2 decade experienced players - most equally adept at mechanical optimization and creative role-play aesthetics.
The beauty of being an "Accept Nearly Everything 3PP" group is that we have a lot of 'Player Surprise Syndrome' at things their fellow players are capable of and actions they perform. For those of you who have memorized all the Core Books and a good chunk of the Player Companions & Campaign Setting books, you may think that nothing can surprise you anymore. Well, bringing in a metric tonne of 3PP classes, archetypes, feats, magic, gear and what-not will help bring a fun sense of wonder, unexpectedness and uncertainty to players of that ilk. Most of our players like that they only know hints and small chunks of what their fellow players can do or are capable of ... until they actually adventure, converse & enter-battle-together with them.
And yes, as a GM, all this added game material is challenging to vet, modify, integrate and memorize ... but I've gotten used to it and I use a lot of helpful tools to ensure game-play never gets stalled or impeded when in progress. Plus, my players are extremely helpful and patient because they appreciate this extremely permissive & expansive game-material environment.
We literally have many hundreds of 3PP PDFs & Paper Books available to our 2 gaming group players. Let it be known, we don't participate in unethical file sharing shenanigans or do anything that hurts the 3PP's incoming revenue. That would be like biting the hand that feeds you. Most of our folks are fairly well-off and find the prices that 3PPs charge to be extremely reasonable for the wonderful return of play enjoyment that we all get. Yeah, there are some stinkers out there, but nothing that causes us to complain about the industry as a whole.
The roster of 3PPs that we love the most are extensive. And I'm probably not going to do justice in listing even a majority of them in the following list. But all these folks do mean a lot to us:
Rite, Rogue Genius, Dreamscarred, Frog God, Zombie Sky Press, Fat Goblin, Purple Duck, Little Red Goblin, Everyman, Total Party Kill, Misfit Studios, Necromancers of the NW, Adventure A Week, Lou Porter, Legendary Games, Interjection, Ascension, Jon Brazer, Drop Dead Studios, Flaming Crab, 4 Dollar Dungeon, Kobold Press etc., etc. and so on. Plus a ton of defunct 3.5 3PP labels that we still do conversions on when we get the chance (Mongoose, AEG, Atlas, etc.).
I use 3rd party materials to flesh out elements of the rules or setting which are either lacking entirely or not as well supported. For instance Alluria Publishing has done a lot of great material that is useful for oceanic settings, while I am looking forward to the Legendary Games planetary AP to scratch my sword and planet itch.
From a rules perspective, Dreamscarred for instance does a good job of updating Psionic rules, and I am interested in picking up the Spheres of Power system to see how well it does in replacing the overly powerful Vancian casting.
Another big thing I look for is the size of the product and how well it is supported. I am not a big fan of buying 5-10 page pdfs of feats, spells, etc. I would much rather buy a fleshed out longer product, if only so I have less sources to sift through.
The support element is important because I don't like buying products that highlight one class that is not open content and is never referenced again by any other work. I hate orphan classes and rule systems, and there are far too many 3pp classes or settings which IMHO fall into category. Its why I tend to lean towards the major 3pp publishers...for instance Kobold Publishing and Dreamscarred Press have done a decent job in supporting there existing material, which makes me more confident in picking up a new book with a new system or class in it.
Similarly, I hate stuff that is way way to specialized. For instance I tend to shy away from races whose racial options only utilize a given 3pp rule system.
RE: Third party races: It mostly depends on if the race fills a need in the setting, or if its a common archetype missing in the existing Pathfinder rules. I generally don't see as much a NEED as I do with other setting elements, simply because there are so many options already. For instance, to cite Kobold Press, the new Tosculi fill an insect role not currently existing in any bestiary, while 0HD minotaurs allow the use of the race as something beyond big monsters (Basically you can have more Krynn style minotaurs).
Ponyfinder and its following books for the world of Everglow. Ponyfinder (base book), Griffons of Everglow, and Tribes of Everglow. Forgotten Past of Everglow is still being worked on and is only available to Kickstarter backers to preview.
Silver Games That's the link to the publisher's store on DriveThruRPG.
Nice! I am not a pony fan, but I have seen what Silver Games put up on the d20pfsrd. Its good and balanced stuff, and I respect their devotion to providing good and flavorful mechanics to pony fans. I was pretty happy to see that the creator of Ponyfinder was actually helping write a race or two from Drop Dead Studio's Skybourne as well. So far I know that they wrote a cool bird race for it that utilizes the same hand-less rules found in Ponyfinder.
The beauty of being an "Accept Nearly Everything 3PP" group is that we have a lot of 'Player Surprise Syndrome' at things their fellow players are capable of and actions they perform. For those of you who have memorized all the Core Books and a good chunk of the Player Companions & Campaign Setting books, you may think that nothing can surprise you anymore. Well, bringing in a metric tonne of 3PP classes, archetypes, feats, magic, gear and what-not will help bring a fun sense of wonder, unexpectedness and uncertainty to players of that ilk. Most of our players like that they only know hints and small chunks of what their fellow players can do or are capable of ... until they actually adventure, converse & enter-battle-together with them.
And yes, as a GM, all this added game material is challenging to vet, modify, integrate and memorize ... but I've gotten used to it and I use a lot of helpful tools to ensure game-play never gets stalled or impeded when in progress. Plus, my players are extremely helpful and patient because they appreciate this extremely...
'Player Surprise Syndrome' is the BEST! Totally worth the added work as a GM for me. Its just nice to have the game still surprise people after how long its been out.
Ponyfinder and its following books for the world of Everglow. Ponyfinder (base book), Griffons of Everglow, and Tribes of Everglow. Forgotten Past of Everglow is still being worked on and is only available to Kickstarter backers to preview.
Silver Games That's the link to the publisher's store on DriveThruRPG.
Nice! I am not a pony fan, but I have seen what Silver Games put up on the d20pfsrd. Its good and balanced stuff, and I respect their devotion to providing good and flavorful mechanics to pony fans. I was pretty happy to see that the creator of Ponyfinder was actually helping write a race or two from Drop Dead Studio's Skybourne as well. So far I know that they wrote a cool bird race for it that utilizes the same hand-less rules found in Ponyfinder.
'Player Surprise Syndrome' is the BEST! Totally worth the added...The beauty of being an "Accept Nearly Everything 3PP" group is that we have a lot of 'Player Surprise Syndrome' at things their fellow players are capable of and actions they perform. For those of you who have memorized all the Core Books and a good chunk of the Player Companions & Campaign Setting books, you may think that nothing can surprise you anymore. Well, bringing in a metric tonne of 3PP classes, archetypes, feats, magic, gear and what-not will help bring a fun sense of wonder, unexpectedness and uncertainty to players of that ilk. Most of our players like that they only know hints and small chunks of what their fellow players can do or are capable of ... until they actually adventure, converse & enter-battle-together with them.
And yes, as a GM, all this added game material is challenging to vet, modify, integrate and memorize ... but I've gotten used to it and I use a lot of helpful tools to ensure game-play never gets stalled or impeded when in progress. Plus, my players are extremely helpful and patient because they appreciate this extremely...
I love it but sometimes it backfires. I'll have tables of experienced players that don't want to go out of the core rules at all even when something obviously better is an option. I give out scaling combat feats to leave room for more flavor feats and third party feats and am met with not even looking at the scaling feats and just taking the feats as they normally are, feat taxes and all.