Okay, so a little backstory here, I began GM’ing Pathfinder with a group of close IRL friends back in October 2013 and have been playing fairly regularly since then. However, as of the last several months scheduling has become more and more of a problem with one player’s classes meaning he can only play on Friday or Saturday night, and everyone else having an absurdly sporadic work schedule that even sometimes changes the day of a would-be session. This past week (week of November 6th) I only heard back from 3 of the 5 players as far as when they would be available, and 2 of those 3 only told me they wouldn’t be available. In addition to work and school conflicts, I’m aware that 3 of them are participating in another campaign at the same time, and while I can’t be sure, I can’t help but feel that there have been times where we could’ve had a session and they skipped due to this other campaign they’re in having one instead.
It pisses me off, a lot. I get that work and school is more important, but to often not even take the several seconds it would require to respond to an inquiry into their schedules is just not okay. They’ve also gotten really off-topic in sessions and have routinely had difficulty with paying attention, some of them even falling asleep during sessions (we play over Skype/Roll20). I reinforced some common rules but they haven’t been in practice enough to see if they really work or not. Now here’s my dilemma.
If I give them an ultimatum between my game or this other game, logic indicates they’ll pick the other game, as I’d be the one forcing them to choose and they probably wouldn’t be happy about that. Honestly, I’d be perfectly content with kicking the majority of them from the game. It’s obvious they have no real investment in anything that’s taking place and I’m really sick of putting in hours of effort every week planning and preparing things only for them to so blatantly not appreciate any of that effort with, at the very least, some respect. The thing is, we’ve been playing for over 2 years now, and a lot of what I have planned hinges entirely on their involvement. It’d be almost meaningless for a totally brand new group of players to follow these tracks only to find out that pretty much nothing has any ties to their characters, but instead the previous group’s characters.
So if I kick them, I kill so much potential material before it ever gets to shine. But if I don’t, I spend the next who knows how long constantly feeling unappreciated and dealing with people that don’t really care about anything that’s happening. Not to mention, they’re my friends and we barely do anything together anymore. This is just about the only regular thing we all do, and to not have that would probably turn me off of it for a while.
I’ve tried bringing this stuff up. I did it when I implemented the new rules and it basically went over about as well a classroom full of kids that weren’t paying attention.
I’m just at a loss on what to do. Talking it over with them and telling them these frustrations has had no effect. They’re not about to change their ways any time soon. But I don’t want to see the material I worked so hard on die. I don’t feel like having to probe dozens of potential new players to see which ones work well in the group. But I’m also sick of being unappreciated and ultimately, yeah, being disrespected, whether it’s intentional or not. I just wish that they would come around and stop being so frustrating all the time. Suggestions would be nice, especially if anyone's been where I am now.
TL;DR(ish) - Been playing with the same group for 2 years. Whether they realize it or not, they've been a hassle to GM for lately and scheduling has also been a tedious problem, with some of them choosing another ongoing campaign they're a part of instead of mine when an opening in their schedule shows up. I want to kick them and bring in new blood, but they're close friends and that'd be rough to do. It'd also result in me having to drop A LOT of content I've worked on since the new party would have no connection to it.
TL;DR - GM'ing for a group of friends. A bunch of them are frustrating the hell out of me and don't seem to care. I want to kick them, but I also don't want to kick them. Don't know what to do and I need suggestions.
Do/can you meet outside of your game time? Do you believe that these people would hold a grudge if you kicked them?
Do/can you meet outside of your game time? Do you believe that these people would hold a grudge if you kicked them?
We hang out maybe nowadays once or twice a month IRL. And yeah, I feel as though kicking them would generate some friction between me and the people I kicked.
UPDATE: One of the players that never got back to me this week finally did today. The past four days he's apparently been so busy he hasn't had the time to get on Skype to say that he was going to be busy. He made things somewhat easier that's for sure. IRL friction or not, I told him that if he was that busy he probably shouldn't be playing in the campaign anymore. It sucks but whatever.
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Been there, and I'm afraid there's no solution you'd like.
I had to drop the group, and there was some friction, but there was nothing else to do.
Also, I too had lots of material that relied on the players' investment, and it went to waste. Actually, I could have recycled it with other people, with some work, and I'm sure you could too, but as time and games went on, I got into other things and lost interest in that previous material. Maybe one day I'll want to use it again, but for now, yes, it went to waste.
Can't give you better advice, when the only good solution lies in the hands of people who don't care about it, I have no idea what else can be done.
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Perhaps set aside the mantle of GMing, for a while? If they've played for two years, one of them should probably be able to do it instead.
It's healthy to get out of the hot chair from time to time.
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Put the game on hiatus. Most of the people who are playing aren't appreciating what you're doing. If you're so inclined, take the players who are interested in your game and start a new game or run some one shots for a while.
Look, the game you are currently running is over in all but name.
Perhaps set aside the mantle of GMing, for a while? If they've played for two years, one of them should probably be able to do it instead.
It's healthy to get out of the hot chair from time to time.
I'm the only one that really has the time and commitment out of the group to put in the effort necessary to run a game. Some of them have even openly admitted to not having the patience to GM.
Put the game on hiatus. Most of the people who are playing aren't appreciating what you're doing. If you're so inclined, take the players who are interested in your game and start a new game or run some one shots for a while.
Look, the game you are currently running is over in all but name.
That's what it's headed towards. Hell, it's pretty much already here.
UPDATE: As I kind of expected, after telling the first player to essentially leave, another player left as well; reason given was a combination of a busy work schedule with the holidays coming up and also an apparent lack of interest. He claimed that extended to Pathfinder in general and not just our game, but again, given his involvement in the other game I mentioned, I wouldn't doubt he was trying to be polite about leaving. I also wouldn't be shocked if a certain third player left as he works at the same place as these two and is also the other guy involved in the other game.
I don't know. Like I said, it sucks. By the end of this I'll probably be left with 2 players, if I'm fortunate. And while that will certainly make scheduling easier for a time, it just won't be the same. I'll probably recycle a lot of the material I have planned and retool it so that it doesn't go to complete waste. Basically I just have to rebrand it so it's not geared towards players that aren't involved anymore. If I have some remaining players stick around I may try and wrap up our current campaign and then take a break for a while to plan and get some new people in for the next one.
Thing is, I don't know if I'll even really want to continue if most of the group is gone. One of the major reasons I put in the effort to GM was because it was something me and my friends could do like we used to before. Without that reason, I don't know if my heart will really be in it, y'know?
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Could you perhaps join the other game (as a player) that your friends are involved in and seem to be committed to?
If they are your RL friends and are actively enjoying and participating in this other game, why haven't they invited you? Or have they?
I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just know how you feel.
Could you perhaps join the other game (as a player) that your friends are involved in and seem to be committed to?
If they are your RL friends and are actively enjoying and participating in this other game, why haven't they invited you? Or have they?
I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just know how you feel.
The person GM'ing that game is a former player of mine. We didn't see eye-to-eye on anything related to tabletop gaming, which is why he left my group almost a year and a half ago. I was invited when he began his game a while ago but declined due to our conflicting nature. I wouldn't be having fun in his game, essentially, even if it was with friends.
Drop the campaign and use the recruiting forums here to find a new group for Roll20. I've joined two pick up groups this way and for the most part, it has turned out well. There's no point in sticking it out when they don't appreciate your effort, attempt to communicate or pay attention during the session. Time to take the campaign out back and put it out of its misery.
UPDATE:
Yeah, as expected, the third guy also left. Guess I was wrong about having no problem booting them all from the game. Them all leaving like this, just basically saying "I'm bored" and going, is extremely demoralizing considering these are my friends. Hardly feels that way right now. I just hope one of them in particular doesn't leave. He always seemed like the one most interested in what was going on. Probably isn't saying much though considering. Man, this whole situation sucks.
Thanks for posting the update. I'm sorry that things didn't work out well. Good luck with whatever direction you decide to go in next.
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To sum it up :
- Your players stopped coming to your game
- Some of them preferred playing another one, GMed by a guy who left your group because you did not see eye to eye. And he did invite you to participate but you refused.
- You kicked one of them out and others followed him.
- You do not really GM for your players, but for the story you want to tell because you have spent so much time working on it.
I am not surprised it went that way and I think you would gain a lot in the future by strengthening the collective side of the game : involving the players to have fun together. More We, less I (and even less I vs Them).
You have the opportunity now to find a better game. It is pointless to cry over spilled milk, especially if the milk is sour. I know it doesn't feel that way now, but it is probably the best that could happen.
To sum it up :
- Your players stopped coming to your game
That's not what happened. I asked what their schedules were to determine when the next session would be and I didn't recieve a response from 2 people. By the time I did, 4 days later, I was informed that the player had been too busy to so much as say that they were busy.
- Some of them preferred playing another one, GMed by a guy who left your group because you did not see eye to eye. And he did invite you to participate but you refused.
That part's right. I have no idea whether they'll be continuing that other campaign or not though. As mentioned, I had at least 2 players suggest that they were feeling burnt out with Pathfinder in general. As far as which campaign they preferred, I can only work off assumption.
- You kicked one of them out and others followed him.
Yes, essentially. The player was the same one that said he had been too busy to indicate that he was busy, for 4 days. I didn't feel as though that was acceptable and told him that if he was that busy he probably shouldn't be in the group anymore. That set off a chain reaction, where 2 others left due to the afforementioned lack of interest and scheduling problems. My suspicion is that it had more to do with the former, but again, that's just assumption.
- You do not really GM for your players, but for the story you want to tell because you have spent so much time working on it.
Not true. They have always had an exceptional amount of freedom and influence over everything that was going on. If they were so inclined to abandon a quest in favor of something else, I would've accommodated that, happily even, since they'd be taking some initiative. They've never been the type of players that seemed to enjoy the opportunities the game offers; wanting to basically just play it like a video game. So, over time, that's more or less how I structured it. Just because I value the time and effort I put into preparing materials for the game doesn't mean I GM purely for my personal enjoyment.
I am not surprised it went that way and I think you would gain a lot in the future by strengthening the collective side of the game : involving the players to have fun together. More We, less I (and even less I vs Them).
Thinking more on it, maybe the issue was deeper; maybe they just didn't want to play Pathfinder at all. One of my remaining players admitted that the off-topic conversation and tangents the group would go on was one of the main reasons he enjoyed playing. But if the primary draw of playing isn't for the game itself, why bother playing? I mean, we could have been just talking in a Skype call instead and it would have had the same effect. The only difference is that I wouldn't have been wasting my time on preparation.
If that was the case and they just didn't want to play, I wish they had told me that a long time ago. Would've saved everyone the trouble.
You have the opportunity now to find a better game. It is pointless to cry over spilled milk, especially if the milk is sour. I know it doesn't feel that way now, but it is probably the best that could happen.
Yeah, I'm trying to focus on the positives of the situation. Vented, had my moment to get upset over it, and mostly calmed down about everything by now. I mean, it's still a crappy situation all around, but I've already got some ideas for how to go forward with everything. It'll turn out alright in the end. Just gotta stick with it.
Hmm, I'd sit down with the remaining players and ask:
What did you like?
What didn't you?
What do you want?
Ask them to be open and honest. Forget your own preferences for a moment, avoid justifying yourself, just listen. The first question is probably the easiest, the second one is harder (if they don't want to hurt you) and the last is the most difficult.
If it turns out that some (or even all) don't want to play anymore, let them go. Add new players, figure out what they like, deliver it to them. There will be still some place for the stuff you prefer. If the group is having fun, you might even get some former players back - but don't bet on it.
Players with low motivation level tend to drag down the entire's party motivation, while the highly motivated ones can encourage everyone else to be active. So if you encounter low motivation, try to engage it early (talk and change details unless this impairs others) and let the person go once he / she mentally quitted the campaign. The earlier they go, the more likely it is that they come back.
Now that you know what your players want to do, don't let it drag you down. Go to the recruitment forums here and start a new thread to find players for your next campaign. Decide on a day and time that works best for you and you will find players immediately lining up to join.
Download and install Skype. Buy a headset to use it. Sign up for Roll20 (it's free!) and start building your maps and adding character icons.
I had a similar situation last year, where my long time group just suddenly starting cancelling sessions at the last minute, and by last minute I mean "we were supposed to start 30 minutes ago, so where is everyone?"
"Oh, we cancelled. Something came up."
I followed my own advice and started a home game at my LFGS and wound up joining two online games here on the the forums using skype/Roll20/d20pro and haven't looked back. My old group doesn't play any more and I don't miss them one bit.
Expanding on what Brother Fen said, sometimes, I find it's a lot easier to GM for people that I'm not friends with. It's easier not to take everything so personally and I find that I prioritize things I want to run because I like them over things I think my friends would think are cool.