The wording seems a bit ambiguous. Given that full attacks normally allow naturals attached to the tail end of the action, yet that onky certain weapons may be used with flurry, it leaves room for multiple readings.
1) the monk with feral combat training gets all flurry attacks, as well as whatever extra is granted by feral combat training.
2) the monk may treat one natural weapon as a monk weapon, and thus may make attacks using that weapon's damage instead of the regular unarmed strikes.
I lean towards 1, but admittedly i am a bit biased. What do you think?
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
All it does is allow you to use natural attacks in place of IUS.
It doesn't grant additional attacks. It is a substitution. There is no ambiguity at all here.
All it does is allow you to use natural attacks in place of IUS.
It doesn't grant additional attacks.
Could you explain your reasoning?
For example, under natural attack rules: "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."
Note that it says as part of a full attack action, and flurry specifically says "as a full attack action".
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It simply allows the monk to use something like a bite or tail slap in place of an unarmed strike during a flurry. The benefit of this is that you are allowed to apply your unarmed strike feats to the natural attack, possibly causing it to be more powerful than it normally is.
It simply allows the monk to use something like a bite or tail slap in place of an unarmed strike during a flurry. The benefit of this is that you are allowed to apply your unarmed strike feats to the natural attack, possibly causing it to be more powerful than it normally is.This part of the feat was errata'd out of existance. Now all it does is let you use the natural attack as part of a flurry of blows. It can be very useful, say if your natural attack lets you deliver poison, trip on hit, or lets you grab then you can trigger those rider actions additional times.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
I am very aware of the errata unless a completely new errata has slipped past me under the radar, which I highly doubt.
While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite. I believe that very clearly allows you to apply a wide range of feats to your natural weapon, which certainly has the potential to make it more powerful.
Okay, I'm gonna try to explain my reasoning, because all I've been getting this thread is "It works X way" without any reasoning why.
First, relevant quotes and emphasis mine:
Unchained monk flurry:
At 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows (1)as a full-attack action. When making a flurry of blows, the monk can make one additional attack at his highest base attack bonus. (2)This additional attack stacks with the bonus attacks from haste and other similar effects. When using this ability, (3)the monk can make these attacks with any combination of his unarmed strikes and weapons that have the monk special weapon quality. He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what's already granted by the flurry for doing so. (He can still gain additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, from this ability, and from haste and similar effects).
At 11th level, a monk can make an additional attack at his highest base attack bonus whenever he makes a flurry of blows. This stacks with the first attack from this ability and additional attacks from haste and similar effects.
Feral Combat Training:
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. (4)While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.
Special: If you are a monk, (3.5)you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Natural Attack General Rules:
(1.5)Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
1)Natural attacks, by general rules, can be tacked on to the end of a full attack. Flurry of blows is stated to be a full attack. So, by general rules (so far), a monk should be able to apply natural attacks to the end of this full attack.
2)This further cements the idea that a flurry of blows is essentially a full attack, and other considerations that require a full attack also apply to flurry of blows. Such as natural attacks.
3)The only thing preventing a monk, normally, from adding natural attacks to his flurry is the text found here. However, the feat has text that overrides that restriction. Normally a monk cannot use natural attacks with his flurry, but with this feat he can use it.
4)Note how the feat does not change any other rules for natural attacks. It doesn't actually say it's now a monk weapon, and it doesn't say that it's no longer a natural weapon. It simply says, here, that it gains the benefits of feats that normally only apply to unarmed strikes.
I'm going by general rules here, and by my reading the general rules of it is that natural attacks can be used with full attacks. I don't see enough specific to override the general, which is why I believe it works this way for a monk that selects the feral combat training feat.
You are ignoring the relevant portion of the flurry rule, the last paragraph:
No, I pasted the entire section of flurry of blows from unchained monk.
It simply allows the monk to use something like a bite or tail slap in place of an unarmed strike during a flurry. The benefit of this is that you are allowed to apply your unarmed strike feats to the natural attack, possibly causing it to be more powerful than it normally is.
The real benefit is to change into something big meant to have a single powerful blow, and multiply those attacks through your flurry. Like the T-REx monk or the behemot hipopotamous monk
Don't have time to explain, but no extra attacks. It will just let you replace unarmed strikes with your natural attacks instead.
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2) the monk may treat one natural weapon as a monk weapon, and thus may make attacks using that weapon's damage instead of the regular unarmed strikes.
This is the valid one.
"It works X way" without any reasoning why.
The reason is you were not present for the forum time before that feat got a FAQ and later Errata treatment. It was a very contentious time with lots of issues with that feat and lots of developer comments on and off the forums.
It does not work like your interpretation and you will meet high resistances to explaining your interpretation to anyone who experienced the early part of this feat's existence. Like me.
2) the monk may treat one natural weapon as a monk weapon, and thus may make attacks using that weapon's damage instead of the regular unarmed strikes.This is the valid one.
"It works X way" without any reasoning why.
The reason is you were not present for the forum time before that feat got a FAQ and later Errata treatment. It was a very contentious time with lots of issues with that feat and lots of developer comments on and off the forums.
It does not work like your interpretation and you will meet high resistances to explaining your interpretation to anyone who experienced the early part of this feat's existence. Like me.
I'm fine with that, it's just that before it was explained to me I wasn't seeing why. Avoron's explanation seems good enough for me, and he explained it well.
But their "explanation" was pointing out the line in the ability that says you can't do it... Which you quoted.
And you never said anything about unchained in your primary post so people were responding to the Core rules initially as well (not that they are different end results).
Which would mean your statement asking for reasoning is rather silly, no?
As I said, there isn't any ambiguity in either monk rule set on this point, if you read the rules.
But their "explanation" was pointing out the line in the ability that says you can't do it... Which you quoted.
And you never said anything about unchained in your primary post so people were responding to the Core rules initially as well (not that they are different end results).
Which would mean your statement asking for reasoning is rather silly, no?
As I said, there isn't any ambiguity in either monk rule set on this point, if you read the rules.
No, the explanation that I accepted was the feral combat training FAQ that they never stated to be outdated.
As per the monk, I admit it was a bit of an omission. I tend to consider the "unchained" classes the new standard versions of the classes, and sometimes forget that not everyone else sees them that way.
I can actually refute the portion about "He takes no penalty for using multiple weapons when making a flurry of blows, but he does not gain any additional attacks beyond what's already granted by the flurry for doing so." because in parenthesis right after it states that there are exceptions, and it leaves room for ambiguity about what those other effects are.
In addition, the "gain any additional attacks" is easily seen as meant to prevent the monk from gaining additional attacks by dual wielding monk weapons and taking the TWF feat.
All of these are points that I was ready to argue, but chose not to as soon as that FAQ was provided. I asked for an explanation to counter my argument and it was provided, and then I accepted it. So what's the problem here?