My character, a rogue, level 9, is generally anti-death., and wants to avoid killing at all costs. All of his attacks are strictly non-lethal.
Here's the problem: he also deals a lot of damage. Sneak attacking a flat-footed opponent deals, on average, 42 damage. If he rolls max, 60 damage, or 120 on a max-crit.
So, if I'm sneaking up on someone that turns out to be a first-level mook, or even a CR 2 3rd level NPC, one good hit and I could very easily kill them. It's even feasible to do on some CR 4, 5th-level NPCs [although the hit would need to be a crit or they'd need to be particularly weak, like a wizard] - and that's all true just if I'm the first one to hit any of them! Put me in a group with my fellow PCs, fighting enemies who have already taken hits, and, well, it's unrealistic to expect I'm *not* going to kill NPCs.
This puts me between a rock-and-a-hard-place, as it seems I only have two choices:
#1) Abandon my character's core identity. End up killing people, unintentionally, and just deal with it. This is a very anti-RP option that I do not want at all.
#2) Neuter my character. Unless I know an enemy I'm fighting is a higher-level NPC, do not sneak attack them, do not flank with my allies, do not take out enemies while sneakily scouting ahead for my party unless I am, somehow, miraculously sure said enemy is at least CR 5 or greater. This threshold requirement will scale up as we continue to advance in the game.
Neither sounds fun. Is there a third option I'm not thinking of here? I could ask my DM about some sort of house rule, such as allowing me to forego some of my sneak attack dice at my discretion, I guess, but even then I'm going to have to severely neuter my character since I will never have any way of knowing with clarity which enemies I'm fighting are low CR and which are high. The only way this could feasibly work is if I had a way of knowing my enemies' CR or maximum HP, and AFAIK there is no way to do that in-game short of being a slayer. Deathwatch exists but is basically useless for this purpose.
Is there maybe some 3.5 peripheral material, or a 3rd-party source or something from Dragon Magazine, that has a spell or equipment item that allows a PC to determine enemy CR/max HP/anything that would be helpful here? I really don't know what to do. =/
Thanks.
Sneak attack doesn't multiply on a crit, by the way.
2 levels of slayer can get you Blood Reader. You get the target's exact HP. Other than that, I don't know of any way to get a target's HP.
UMDing scrolls of detect [alignment] will probably allow you to figure out if the target has enough HD. This is a pretty iffy option though for a number of reasons.
Beyond that, try asking the GM how tough and/or well equipped the enemy is. That should give you a good hint as to whether they are a low level mook or an actual threat that needs a good Sapping.
As for avoiding overkill on your non-lethal damage...the obvious option is don't use a Sap on weak targets so you avoid Sap Mastering them into a fine mist.
Try a merciful weapon. Does extra d6 and males it all non lethal.
The problem is that the OP is hitting with so much non-lethal that it is getting converted to lethal and 1 hit killing the target.
The OP is doing enough damage to outright kill a level 2 Wizard with 12 Con on an average roll. A high roll will put most level 4s and below into the negatives.
It is an issue yes. But a quick question. Does a sneak attack have to be dealt? Does it have to use full dice?
By RAW, yes. There aren't any provisions in the rules for intentionally dealing less damage beyond not using things like Power Attack. The rogue always gets sneak attack when they are eligible, even if they don't want it. It is a very reasonable houserule to say otherwise, but that's what the rules are.
The rogue always gets sneak attack when they are eligible, even if they don't want it.
I disagree.
I think it was deemed so glaringly obvious that you dont have to shank someone in the kidney, even if you see the opening because he is currently distracted by your flanking buddy, if you dont want to do. You can always attack him headon. So they didnt feel the need to spell it out explicitly.
Just if you actually want to do Sneak Attack extra damage there is no passus to regulate how many dice you want. Just use backstab or not.
That's not too much damage, like at all. 42 damage is a bit above the normal CR3 to 4 enemy's total hit-points, meaning that you just start to deal leathal. The max crit could be a problem (unless you didn't know that SA doesn't multiply on crits, then there's no problem at all) for lower level enemies. Though in my games, you really don't go up against enemies with less than 100hp at level 9. But that's due to the DM adjusting the game for our optimized damage dealers, sounds like your game look different.
I think the issue is more that not every encounter is going to be level-appropriate. The party might have to bypass a couple of level 2 guards, for example. Then overkill is a serious problem.
Take 1 on all your damage rolls?
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A compassionate weapon might help.
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
Notice it says can, not does. This means the rogue chooses when to use sneak attack. Saying the rogue has to use sneak attack is like saying a paladin has to use smite evil.
As Snowblind pointed out sneak attack does not multiple on a critical hit so you have probably been doing more damage than you should.
There are a couple of things you could do. The first thing is to use a weapon that does non-lethal damage. Rogues are proficient with the sap for a reason. Sneak attack deal the same type of damage as the weapon so using sneak attack with a sap makes all the damage non-lethal. If you want to use a normal weapon there are a couple of ways to have it do non-lethal damage. As several people have mentioned the merciful weapon enchantment works well, but may be too expensive. If you worship Sarenrae you can take the trait Blade of mercy to allow you to do non-lethal damage with a slashing weapon without taking the -4 to hit. Your last option is to simply deal non-lethal damage and take the -4 to hit.
Most of the things that require a magic weapon to damage are probably going to be able to withstand your damage anyways, or be things you actually do want to kill. This means you don’t really need to purchase a magic non-lethal weapon. If for some reason you do need to take out something that requires a magic weapon to damage you could simply get a +1 Sap. That would actually be cheaper than getting merciful weapon.
Where does it say that too much non-lethal converts into lethal?Try a merciful weapon. Does extra d6 and males it all non lethal.The problem is that the OP is hitting with so much non-lethal that it is getting converted to lethal and 1 hit killing the target.
If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.
Also, have you been following this:
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
You can't deal nonlethal sneak attack damage unless you use a weapon that normally deals nonlethal damage in the first place.
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Are you in a home game?
If so, I'd talk with your GM and make it clear you don't want to kill these guys. Any nonlethal damage past knocking out could simply be ignored.
To me, it shouldn't be harder to not kill someone the higher level you are, it should be easier.
While there is a chance that using non-lethal damage will still kill it is not that easy. Only the damage above what is required to knock the target out is converted to lethal damage. Assuming the target has a con 10, and a current HP of 20. The rogue then successfully sneak attacks the target for 42 point of non-lethal damage. First you take off 20 HP to knock the target out. That leaves 22 points of damage that will be converted into lethal damage. The target is now at -2 HP and dying, but not yet dead. If the target had 21 or more HP it is at most disabled, not dying.
If target has only a few HP left then simply don’t use sneak attack. While many GM’s don’t like giving out exact HP they should at least give a good enough description of how the target looks to give a reasonable chance to figure out how badly the target is damaged. By 9th level the character is an experienced combatant who should be able to figure out how much damage the target has taken. If I were running I would cut the rogue some slack and give him the HP anyways.
Run a sap rogue?
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Take the Golden Legion's Stayed Blade feat.
There are some rogue talents which reduce the amount of SA damage you do for some effect (like Stem the Flow). That might be a feature for you (there's probably one with a more commonly useful effect as well).
Just remember that nonlethal damage doesn't turn into lethal damage until you exceed their max HP (Not current, if they're injured). Most of the time you should be okay, but I agree the best way would just be to ask your GM for a way to not kill them. It makes sense.
Edit- that golden legion feat would work. That's one of those feats that doesn't need to be a feat though, imo.
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Deathwatch in a pair of Deathwatch eyes. Although, not as useful as a Slayer's talent,
And although avr's suggestion of compassionate weapon would also be useful, Fuzzy-Wuzzy's suggestion of the feat, Golden Legion's Stayed Blade, is going to be the only way to trump table variation.
There are several rogue talents that let you forgo your sneak attack damage to impose other conditions on your target. You can see if any of those are would work for your character.
Chose to deal fewer sneak dice, it's an easy houserule that makes sense. Your character is showing restaraint.
I will second Fuzzy-Wuzzy's suggestion, as it's something that is guaranteed to work if you are killing creatures from non-lethal. The other stuff only works after the fact, and if you're 1-shotting enemies, there is no "after-the-fact."
I would be careful, as there are several enemies who are immune to Non-Lethal, and can only be downed by Lethal damage (primarily Undead, Constructs, Elementals, etc).
Just remember that nonlethal damage doesn't turn into lethal damage until you exceed their max HP (Not current, if they're injured). Most of the time you should be okay, but I agree the best way would just be to ask your GM for a way to not kill them. It makes sense.
Edit- that golden legion feat would work. That's one of those feats that doesn't need to be a feat though, imo.
Cool. I thought it was once they get knocked out it wraps around. Will have to remember to remind my GM when this comes up again. )then again my sap adept ninja was doing a lot of damage...
Ive thought about this topic a bit recently as well. Ask your GM seems like a good place to start. If you are hitting someone as a monk, you should have enough control over your fist to know when enough damage has been dealt to simply knock someone out. Unless your name is Apachai Hopachi
My character, a rogue, level 9, is generally anti-death., and wants to avoid killing at all costs. All of his attacks are strictly non-lethal.
Sweet. So you're using a sap or other non-lethal weapon, right?
Here's the problem: he also deals a lot of damage. Sneak attacking a flat-footed opponent deals, on average, 42 damage. If he rolls max, 60 damage, or 120 on a max-crit.
That is not how Sneak Attack criticals work.
42 damage on average? With 5d6 of Sneak Attack (that averages about 17.5 points of damage) so you're doing something like 25 points of damage with your Sap+ STR mod? Really? What, are you using a +15 Sap or does your character just have a 40 STR?
So, if I'm sneaking up on someone that turns out to be a first-level mook, or even a CR 2 3rd level NPC, one good hit and I could very easily kill them. It's even feasible to do on some CR 4, 5th-level NPCs [although the hit would need to be a crit or they'd need to be particularly weak, like a wizard] - and that's all true just if I'm the first one to hit any of them! Put me in a group with my fellow PCs, fighting enemies who have already taken hits, and, well, it's unrealistic to expect I'm *not* going to kill NPCs.
A bit much, but I get your point. You don't want to over-KO the enemy and accidentally kill them. Cool.
This puts me between a rock-and-a-hard-place, as it seems I only have two choices:
#1) Abandon my character's core identity. End up killing people, unintentionally, and just deal with it. This is a very anti-RP option that I do not want at all.
I would hate this too. Once I begin RPing a character, and I like his personality and RP, I don't want to abandon that for a game mechanic either.
#2) Neuter my character. Unless I know an enemy I'm fighting is a higher-level NPC, do not sneak attack them, do not flank with my allies, do not take out enemies while sneakily scouting ahead for my party unless I am, somehow, miraculously sure said enemy is at least CR 5 or greater. This threshold requirement will scale up as we continue to advance in the game.
First, knowledge skills should help with this. Even humans can be identified and you can determine their basic strengths/weaknesses with Knowledge (Local). Other monsters you may not care about so much (must you deal non-lethal damage to dragons and vampires and demons too?) but if you do care, there are knowledge skills for those, too. The right knowledge skill should enable you to evaluate (or at least approximate) how many HD the target has.
Second, when you non-miraculously recognize that a target is very weak and you fear killing him if you MAXIMIZE YOUR DAMAGE OUTPUT, then it is totally within character and absolutely believable for your professional expert character to withhold SOME of his damage potential. Don't add your STR mod (do you really have a 40 STR?) or your DEX mod if that's what you're doing. Don't Sneak Attack (just normal attack). Don't use Powerful Sneak.
Third, if you MUST sneak attack because, somehow, your RP-oriented non-lethal expert character cannot work it into his personality that he has a desire to pull his punches to save lives, then invest in something like Befuddling Strike or Sneaky Maneuver or any other talent or feat that converts Sneak Attack dice into some other effect (so you do less damage and gain some other effect).
Finally, if it's that important to you, then hit him with your fist instead of using a weapon. Especially if your weapon is magical and adding its enhancement bonus to the damage.
When you combine all that (non-magical fist instead of magical weapon, no STR/DEX bonus to your damage, no sneak attack), well, then you should have your damage as low as 1d3. Period. Average damage of 2. That's obviously too low, so pick which things you need to do to reduce damage to the right level (probably different for each wimpy target) and don't do the rest.
And remember, you're only doing this against very wimpy (compared to you) targets.
Neither sounds fun.
Why not?
Is it fun to role-play your character?
What's wrong with "Wow, this guy I'm about to clobber really looks like a puny newbie. He's such a weakling I'll probably kill him if I hit him too hard. I better hit him softer. And maybe instead of bopping him on the temple with my sap, I might just smack him generally in the head so I don't do too much damage. Wouldn't want this wimp dying of a subdural hematoma because I hit him too hard." And then instead of sneak attacking him for 42 damage, you just thump him on the head for 20 or so damage, still non-lethal, and drop him to unconsciousness rather than death.
That sounds perfectly in-character and perfectly fun. Even an added layer of challenge - You have to figure out how to use your skill and feats and class abilities to be effective without being too effective. Much more challenging than "Yeah, I do max damage. Again. For the 765th time."
Me, I like the idea of having to THINK about what I'm doing rather than just always reaching for the same dice and giving the GM the same exact description of what I'm doing.
Finally, it's not "neutering" your character to try to pretend he has some intelligence, some self-control, and some concern about sparing the lives of the little guy. After all, you're only doing this when you have to disable wimpy low-level mooks. YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO TONE IT DOWN AGAINST THOSE GUYS TO KEEP THEM ALIVE (assuming you care about keeping them alive, which you do). It's just built into the game - as you level up, the CR-appropriate encounters get harder and harder to kill, so you get deadlier and deadlier, but when you want to engage a very low CR encounter without killing it, there is no way to do this without deliberately choosing to ignore some of your deadliest abilities.
That is working as designed.
My character, a rogue, level 9, is generally anti-death., and wants to avoid killing at all costs. All of his attacks are strictly non-lethal.Sweet. So you're using a sap or other non-lethal weapon, right?
Here's the problem: he also deals a lot of damage. Sneak attacking a flat-footed opponent deals, on average, 42 damage. If he rolls max, 60 damage, or 120 on a max-crit.That is not how Sneak Attack criticals work.
42 damage on average? With 5d6 of Sneak Attack (that averages about 17.5 points of damage) so you're doing something like 25 points of damage with your Sap+ STR mod? Really? What, are you using a +15 Sap or does your character just have a 40 STR?
...
FYI, his stated damage is about what you would expect from a Sap master build. He will be dealing 10d6+5(or is it 10?) sneak attack damage every hit, plus weapon damage. If he is an unchained rogue, he will be approaching 50 damage a hit. That seriously risks killing a 20HP level 3 warrior (who takes roughly 50 non-lethal to drop below -Con in a hit).
Everyone in this topic, you're all amazing. Such great conversation, fantastic ideas, excellent discussion. This thread is a prime example of what I love about these forums. Fantastic. And yeah, Snowblind's right: Sap Master rogue here.
Take the Golden Legion's Stayed Blade feat.
THIS... is perfect, for my purposes, at least. My DM listened to my arguing that I should be allowed to say I don't kill people, but ultimately overruled, saying that's just something I'd have to deal with for being such a powerful, deadly character, unless I wanted to deliberately pull my punches - he was fine with me omitting sneak attack when I am eligible, but as we discussed ITT, that has its own problems.
But he also said if I could find a published, in-game rules solution, even if it was not a primary source, that he'd allow it. So now I'm golden... A golden stayed blade ;)
Thanks, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, and everyone!