First of all, I realize that there are other threads about Mr. Martin, and this fantastic book series, so if the webmaster wants to just dynamite this thread upon completion I get it. I felt like this deserved it's own thread because it will start with my musings on my second reread (so third time through) of Game of Thrones (just started it again today).
I could go on and on forever, but I'm going to start the discussion with two things. Martin's subtlety, and his, what I would call, sideways world building.
First, on his subtlety; I'll freely and shamefully admit, that it took me this third read to realize that Gared from the prologue is the deserter from the Night's Watch beheaded in the first chapter. Martin subtly mentions Gared's missing ears and fingers as a point of proof of the cold in the prologue, and then casually mentions Bran's noticing of said physical traits in chapter one. Brilliant. There's a story told in the gap there. There's a story told in what Martin doesn't tell us about how Gared escaped the others and got beyond the wall, and made it all the way south of Winterfell. That's brilliant subtle craftsmanship.
Second, sideways world building. I never noticed until this read, how Martin creates a world that is both horrifying and yet hopeful in just two chapters. The Others? Yeah, frightening, the stuff of nightmares. The stuff that every good gamer lives for. Their description oozes magic, and their weapons are clearly otherworld stuff. The very name of the enemy "the Others" creates a sense of a world outside of the physical world. Martin's world taketh away. Yet, in chapter one Martin's world also giveth. A dead direwolf, sigil of House Stark, killed by antlers, six pups born from a dead or dying mother. One amongst them an albino, an outcast, to fit the children, bastard included, of House Stark. Clearly this offering of canines that grow as big as small horses is for some purpose?! Clearly these pups are discovered by the children of House Stark to some end? Clearly there's magic in the world that is benevolent.
Martin gives us a world with zombies, and direwolves... A world we all know well. Later Martin gives us a world with dragons. A world we all know well. (By we I mean gamers, if you don't want to be lumped in there, I apologize). Yet he builds that world in so sideways a manner as to almost make us forget the daunting task that such worldbuilding requires! Ever attempt to create your own campaign setting? Yeah, it's hard work. Yet, in the prologue and first chapter of this series I already feel a complete world at play, one that I'm dying to learn the intricacies of, but not in a Silmarillion style history book (no offense to Tokien, I love his work, and he was my gateway to the drug that is RPGs.) No, I'm dying to learn the intricacies of this magic world from the point of view of the characters that live in it.
Amazing. The sheer fact that I can approach this series for a third time and marvel at it all the more, amazes me. If you have not given this series a try, or, if you've watched the HBO series, and avoided the books, I highly recommend you pick it up.
A Song of Ice & Fire is an amazing series. I recently tried re-reading the Belgariad by David Eddings and could not bring myself to finish it because of how painfully nice everyone is to each other, compared to the cast of characters in GoT. All of the Alorn kings are best buddies and nobody is ever sad. I kept thinking how these buggers would be minced if the fantasy worlds of Eddings & Martin were ever to collide. :p
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I recently tried re-reading the Belgariad by David Eddings and could not bring myself to finish it because of how painfully nice everyone is to each other, compared to the cast of characters in GoT.
I go back to the Belgariad/Mallorean/Elenium/Tamuli precisely for that niceness. I have to force myself through ASoIaF due to how dreary and hopeless it is. I still haven't finished the latest book. (Or is it the second latest? I haven't picked it up in two years now...)
I love Martin's worldbuilding, but I don't think I'm ever going to finish the series because of how utterly bleak and depressing the world is. After the 85th time something horrible happens to good people you just start to wonder, "why am I sill reading this?"
But you see, that's exactly what I love about it, for two reasons. The first reason is, the world we live in, on a global scale at least, maybe not in people's individual pockets of the world, is bleak and depressing, and good people die all the time. Second, because to me that's what a good fantasy world should be. Every game I've ever run as a GM has been a gritty, deadly, depressing place, where heroes suffer and die just as much as the common man (read: multiple PC deaths, and rolling up new characters). It's precisely that bleak, depressing, gritty, and yet somehow full of magic (albeit many times on the periphery) world that makes GoT so enticing to an old gamer like me. :)
I get that, but the reason I like fantasy is for escapism. I want my fantasy worlds to be hopeful and uplifting, because all too often the real world isn't. If I wanted bleak and depressing, I'd watch the news.
Understood.
I stick with Martin for the inevitable downfall of his villains. No spoilers here, but I could not help but cheer when one of the (many) recurring villains met with a gristly end.
That being said, the last two books have been a turgid slog and failed to advance the plot more than a few yards. I hope the next book is a little more energetically paced.
Just to be clear, Relg and the Marag woman were not nice to each other at all, until Relg was told to wise up by Ul and then he stopped being a jerk and go procreate.
As a rule, I like High fantasy like Tolkien, but I also like more "realistic" fantasy..that sounds weird..anyway, like Ice and fire or the Dragonbone throne trilogy.
When I was younger, my favorite popcorn fantasy was the Riftwar and follow ups by Fiest..but then he got divorced, and his writing went into the toilet and he kept writing more and more crappy books to pay alimony presumably.
Actually, right now my total favorite writer is Jim Butler. The Dresden files is the perfect mix of light and grimdark.
Martin I still enjoy but concur the story has been mired in to many sideplots.
Actually, right now my total favorite writer is Jim Butler. The Dresden files is the perfect mix of light and grimdark.
I love Jim Butcher as well... but it's not grimdark in any way shape or fashion.
If you want grimdark - you go to Lord Grimdark himself Joe Abercrombie.
That being said, the last two books have been a turgid slog and failed to advance the plot more than a few yards. I hope the next book is a little more energetically paced.
Seconded. Several plots went literally nowhere and only ate up hundreds of pages. How he plans on resolving all the other plots he left hanging is a mystery to me, unless he goes "rocks fall, everyone dies" (which the Others invasion might just turn out to be).
Also, Jim Butcher is my favorite author, too. Next Dresden File books should be out in spring 2016, according to him. The first Cinder Spires book was very good.
Actually, right now my total favorite writer is Jim Butler. The Dresden files is the perfect mix of light and grimdark.I love Jim Butcher as well... but it's not grimdark in any way shape or fashion.
If you want grimdark - you go to Lord Grimdark himself Joe Abercrombie.
Yes! Love Abercrombie, I eat his stuff up. It's weird, but whenever I think of Abercrombie the words subtle and blunt both come to mind, which I guess speaks to the genius of his craft. Maybe genius is too strong a word?
That being said, the last two books have been a turgid slog and failed to advance the plot more than a few yards. I hope the next book is a little more energetically paced.Seconded. Several plots went literally nowhere and only ate up hundreds of pages. How he plans on resolving all the other plots he left hanging is a mystery to me, unless he goes "rocks fall, everyone dies" (which the Others invasion might just turn out to be).
If that is the case, I would burn George R. R. Martin in effigy. If all of those plots and sub-plots are closed with an invasion of the Others, a disturbance will be felt in the force such as has never been felt before, nor will be again.
If that is the case, I would burn George R. R. Martin in effigy. If all of those plots and sub-plots are closed with an invasion of the Others, a disturbance will be felt in the force such as has never been felt before, nor will be again.That being said, the last two books have been a turgid slog and failed to advance the plot more than a few yards. I hope the next book is a little more energetically paced.Seconded. Several plots went literally nowhere and only ate up hundreds of pages. How he plans on resolving all the other plots he left hanging is a mystery to me, unless he goes "rocks fall, everyone dies" (which the Others invasion might just turn out to be).
Seems to me he had this really good story started and then went "O crap, how am i ever gonna end this??" and has kinda wandered all over the place since then. I think the reason his next book is taking so long is he can't get all the subplots to resolve .
Seems to me he had this really good story started and then went "O crap, how am i ever gonna end this??" and has kinda wandered all over the place since then. I think the reason his next book is taking so long is he can't get all the subplots to resolve .If that is the case, I would burn George R. R. Martin in effigy. If all of those plots and sub-plots are closed with an invasion of the Others, a disturbance will be felt in the force such as has never been felt before, nor will be again.That being said, the last two books have been a turgid slog and failed to advance the plot more than a few yards. I hope the next book is a little more energetically paced.Seconded. Several plots went literally nowhere and only ate up hundreds of pages. How he plans on resolving all the other plots he left hanging is a mystery to me, unless he goes "rocks fall, everyone dies" (which the Others invasion might just turn out to be).
I hate to say this, but I think one of the reasons the next book is so delayed is that he doesn't really need the money any more, what with the windfall from the HBO series, and so has no urgency to devise creative ways to cable-tie all of his plots and sub-plots together.
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ASoIaF is dark, but nowhere near as dark and unrelentingly harsh as some other fantasy worlds (see Scott Bakker's, arguably Steven Erikson's as well). If you look at the peacetime scenes in the first book, and more notable in the prequel novellas, you can find a world that when it's actually at peace is actually a perfectly fine medieval fantasy world to live in. It's just the fact that ASoIaF takes place at a time of brutal civil war that makes it seem to suck a lot more than it actually does.
Reading the books is an interesting experience as you can see the foreshadowing laid in for things later on. The Tower of Joy dream in the first book and the House of the Undying sequence at the end of Book 2 are particularly brilliant for this. You can see plot elements that don't come to fruition until the fifth volume being laid down.