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Overpowered =/= "broken", but...
RAW and using a 3,000gp rod, a 12th level magus with these arcana could fire an Intensified Shocking Grasp (10d6, not counting weapon damage on top of that) at ~500 feet.
Or, with an 11,000gp rod, three Maximized Scorching Ray arrows (24 + weapon damage each) also at ~500 feet.
To me, at least, that's pretty powerful damage output at a range difficult to fight back from for a very minimal cost for a PC.
Plus, those are just two quick examples that I came up with within a few seconds of seeing these arcana for the first time. I'm sure someone who's more rules-savvy than I could exploit them to a far greater extent.
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Wow, I really did not expect this kind of response but I am very grateful that I was able to kick off so much constructive discussion around the archetype. Since John has chimed in (thanks John!) about revisiting this thread on Monday, I would be very pleased to see this discussion continue through to weekend.
Moving on. Since I can't edit my original post, I want to take a minute to admit a few things I was either wrong about or had not considered:
- The Kensai archetype has a melee weapon restriction, and after looking over most of the abilities I don't think think stacking it with the Eldritch Archer is something that we should be concerned about.
- Comparing the Eldritch Archer to a Zen Archer was a mistake, and I apologize. I'm glad that the discussion has veered away from that comment, as I didn't really communicate very effectively why I equated the two in my head.
- The Hexcrafter and the Flight Hex is very powerful. In my experience combat rarely takes a full minute and this would mean that for nearly every fight (terrain permitting) the Eldritch Archer would be negating one of it's most significant drawbacks, vulnerability to melee.
- The points centered around not casting spells that miss are valid. The Magus has access to a number of spells that do not require that they be cast by their bow, and thus the drawback of losing prepared spells can be significantly avoided (depending on the circumstance and the spells used).
- While I believe I understated the value of a free 50%-off weapon, I want to make sure that we also recognize having an Arcane Bonded weapon comes with significant risk (disarm, sunder, etc.).
I'll be honest, you all raised solid points, and it is very difficult for me to set aside the way I really want to play a ranged Magus and instead look at the boundaries of what the Eldritch Archer is capable of. When I started this thread last night it seemed very obvious to me that while the Eldritch Archer is a strong archetype, it was by far so overpowered as to be banned in PFS. Now, when I look through all of your comments I can humbly say I am on the fence.
P.S. Thanks Sebastian for keeping the dream alive and phrasing things much better than I can!
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If you allow Eldritch Archer into play, I will promise you that I will make something that even makes Zen Archers say "Mother of God, hold me, Im scared".
The fact that yes, you can in fact use firearms with this archetype is something that anyone should look at, look at it again, and do a double take before even allowing in the campaign.
Please do not allow this into the campaign. There is more than enough broken toys for people to play with.
But hey, if you do. Awesome. Gunslinger magus inc.
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It'd be pretty cool to haste the party and drop 15d6+60 at the same time on the BBEG but I'm not so sure it's something we need to see too often. I've taken to self-nerfing my Myrmidarch by spending turns buffing the party or casting utilities instead of dealing roadshow blitzkrieg re-enactments from turn one. Archery is always good. Getting two turns worth of action would be crazy good.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Overpowered =/= "broken", but...
RAW and using a 3,000gp rod, a 12th level magus with these arcana could fire an Intensified Shocking Grasp (10d6, not counting weapon damage on top of that) at ~500 feet.
Or, with an 11,000gp rod, three Maximized Scorching Ray arrows (24 + weapon damage each) also at ~500 feet.
To me, at least, that's pretty powerful damage output at a range difficult to fight back from for a very minimal cost for a PC.
Plus, those are just two quick examples that I came up with within a few seconds of seeing these arcana for the first time. I'm sure someone who's more rules-savvy than I could exploit them to a far greater extent.
Sorry, but when the game has warpriests you can snipe people up to the maximum range of their weapon (take the right blessing) and the number of scenarios with a map, where this actually becomes relevant is quite small.
I would not call two arcana minimal cost, and remember that this only works when you are using ranged spell strike, so the range increment of your weapon + targeting full AC instead of touch AC are a factor. Of course a magus or wizard could hurt people at a similar distance with something as "innocent" as a fireball.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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If you allow Eldritch Archer into play, I will promise you that I will make something that even makes Zen Archers say "Mother of God, hold me, Im scared".
The fact that yes, you can in fact use firearms with this archetype is something that anyone should look at, look at it again, and do a double take before even allowing in the campaign.
Please do not allow this into the campaign. There is more than enough broken toys for people to play with.
But hey, if you do. Awesome. Gunslinger magus inc.
That's a mature attitude, how about posting a sample build ? And yeah the idea to spellstrike with a weapon that still attacks touch ac is a neat trick, since you just add a weapon attack on top of the base damage, benefit from weapon focus and the enhancement bonus etc... but compaired to the spell damage, the firearm damage isn't all that critical, and since those weapons usually crit only on a 20, the critical spellstrike hits become even rarer.
Add on top of that this likely requires a dip into gunslinger (thus delaying getting access to some of the better class features).
By all means show us (ideally at level 5 and 9 with the same gold I used to build the other examples, to make it easier to compare them.)
(And this may shock you, but most of us have a couple of concepts we would not touch with a 10 ft. pole, cause we know what they can do to scenarios. Players decide what kind of characters they build.)
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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It'd be pretty cool to haste the party and drop 15d6+60 at the same time on the BBEG but I'm not so sure it's something we need to see too often. I've taken to self-nerfing my Myrmidarch by spending turns buffing the party or casting utilities instead of dealing roadshow blitzkrieg re-enactments from turn one. Archery is always good. Getting two turns worth of action would be crazy good.
Can you please give us some details? I play a myrmidarch and while casting utility spells is a viable tactic, I don't see 15d6 damage from ranged attacks unless you invest heavily in elemental damage.
Why is your myrmidarch so problematic?
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I think the major points of the gunslinger build are its ability to use the metamagic rods just like you would when shooting a crossbow one-handed and attacking touch AC. I'm not sure if there's anything else I'm missing because I don't know gunslingers particularly well. I can't see more than one level dip though so that you don't delay spell progression too much.
I'm curious about how people are playing myrmidarchs at all considering the archetype doesn't work in general. The class can't spell combat really. It's true stacking these two archetypes significantly fixes the myrmidarch.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I think the major points of the gunslinger build are its ability to use the metamagic rods just like you would when shooting a crossbow one-handed and attacking touch AC. I'm not sure if there's anything else I'm missing because I don't know gunslingers particularly well. I can't see more than one level dip though so that you don't delay spell progression too much.
I'm curious about how people are playing myrmidarchs at all considering the archetype doesn't work in general. The class can't spell combat really. It's true stacking these two archetypes significantly fixes the myrmidarch.
Even with the eldritch archer, you can't use the other hand when doing spell combat, the hands your to hold your ranged weapon don't conflict with spell combat but the following text from spell combat survives the archetype intact:
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.
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Two thoughts I've pondered. (at the gaming table now, will work on the wasp tomorrow)
1) I don't think the kensai/archer combo works, since the Kensai can't spellstrike without his chosen weapon, and he can't chose his bow.
2) While the range is an issue, the other thing that occurred to me was tangleshot or dye arrows. turns a lot of those spells back into touch attacks. That's not a flaw on the class. It's a quirk. At least it takes another book.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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She doesn't need a hand free for ranged spell combat.
You are correct, sorry about that, totally missed that sentence. Seems like an unintended consequence, of course not being able to use metamagic rods (without e.g. growing another arm) doesn't seem intentional either.
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A kensai is proficient in simple weapons.
A Eldritch Archer just needs any ranged weapon.
In general this will result in a crossbow build with a 19-20 crit range unless you gain other proficiency.
Edit: I think this build is the gunslinger build. You can have like a level of savage technologist then kensai or something. Wield a chosen weapon and crit fish with it. Use butterfly sting to pass the crit to your gun. No idea what this looks like entirely but its an idea.
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Sebastian: It's not that a normal Magus can't cast a powerful spell, then take a full attack. It's that they have to at least approach melee range to do so, and thus put themselves in some kind of danger. The archetype we're discussing here can do those things and stay well out of melee range. In a lot of cases well out of range of a charge, even. I'm not saying that should for certain mean the archetype should be banned. But it is a large advantage over a traditional Magus, who has to put themself at risk to be effective. Even with a reach weapon and long arm, a normal magus will still be within a 5 foot step of a huge creature, and often of a Large creature. That's not the case when the Magus is using a longbow.
I'm not that familiar with the Myrmidarch, so maybe the same issue exists there. This archetype, though, appears to have taken the most powerful caster (Wizard) and merged it with the most powerful Martial (Archer). There is reason to be wary in that situation.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Two thoughts I've pondered. (at the gaming table now, will work on the wasp tomorrow)
1) I don't think the kensai/archer combo works, since the Kensai can't spellstrike without his chosen weapon, and he can't chose his bow.
2) While the range is an issue, the other thing that occurred to me was tangleshot or dye arrows. turns a lot of those spells back into touch attacks. That's not a flaw on the class. It's a quirk. At least it takes another book.
1.Yeah, not being able designate the ranged weapon bit really kills the kensai combo.
2.The tangleshot/dye arrow issue is already an issue in PFS, I sidestepped the issue with my myrmidarch - but the question whether or not attacks that do not deal damage can carry rider effects like "flaming" and spellstrike will have to be answered by the rules team at some point.
I think this issue is most prevalent with grenadier alchemists, since they can imbue alchemical items like alchemists fire into tangleshot arrows.
Since this issue already exists in PFS, the core issue is the ability to use spell combat while using a bow.
The ability to throw daggers with the vanilla magus already exists, especially if you take the Throwing Magus arcana from Ranged Characters Toolbox:
Throwing Magus
Benefit(s) Whenever the magus enhances his weapon using his arcane pool, he can spend 1 additional point from his arcane pool to add the returning and throwing abilities to the list of available weapon special abilities.
When the magus throws a weapon enhanced by his arcane pool and hits a foe, he regains 1 arcane pool point. The magus can regain a number of arcane pool points per day equal to his Intelligence modifier in this way. If he throws his held weapon and draws another in the same round, he can enhance the newly drawn weapon with his arcane pool as a free action instead of a swift action.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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A kensai is proficient in simple weapons.
A Eldritch Archer just needs any ranged weapon.
In general this will result in a crossbow build with a 19-20 crit range unless you gain other proficiency.
Edit: I think this build is the gunslinger build. You can have like a level of savage technologist then kensai or something. Wield a chosen weapon and crit fish with it. Use butterfly sting to pass the crit to your gun. No idea what this looks like entirely but its an idea.
Sorry to burst your bubble but:
You can forgo a critical hit in order to pass it on to an ally.
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise.
Benefit: When you confirm a critical hit against a creature, you can choose to forgo the effect of the critical hit and grant a critical hit to the next ally who hits the creature with a melee attack before the start of your next turn. Your attack only deals normal damage, and the next ally automatically confirms the hit as a critical.
You idea works if you want to dual wield a kukri and a heavy pick but I don't see a lot of magus synergy. Maybe with a spell storing weapon, but spell storing weapons and critical hits are a completely unrelated other can of worms (no idea if they can even crit, as far as I know the issue is still unclear).
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Oh right. Welp just save it for the normal butterfly sting magus then.
You can still do something such as a Crossbow / Chosen Weapon Klar build as a Kensai or maybe a two-weapon fighter without butterfly sting.
Yeah, but the only really useful benefit of that would be canny defense, and I think armor is a better solution here. Diminished spellcasting and the loss of spell recall (especially without a replacement like hexes) doesn't seem to synergize well with ranged spell combat.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Sebastian: It's not that a normal Magus can't cast a powerful spell, then take a full attack. It's that they have to at least approach melee range to do so, and thus put themselves in some kind of danger. The archetype we're discussing here can do those things and stay well out of melee range. In a lot of cases well out of range of a charge, even. I'm not saying that should for certain mean the archetype should be banned. But it is a large advantage over a traditional Magus, who has to put themself at risk to be effective. Even with a reach weapon and long arm, a normal magus will still be within a 5 foot step of a huge creature, and often of a Large creature. That's not the case when the Magus is using a longbow.
I'm not that familiar with the Myrmidarch, so maybe the same issue exists there. This archetype, though, appears to have taken the most powerful caster (Wizard) and merged it with the most powerful Martial (Archer). There is reason to be wary in that situation.
My personal experience with ranged magus characters does tend to color my opinion here. I usually ended up investing just as much into AC as my melee builds, since enemies had an uncanny ability to come dangerously close, and when the two weapon fighting ettin is standing right in front of you, using your ranged weapon wasn't an option.
Participating in melee allows the GM to attack you too, which is sometimes quite welcome if it means, that not everyone attacks the same character.
So yeah, since I am buffed and protected to a similar extend, melee doesn't seem to have the same downsides, the higher crit chance, spell storing weapons and the ability to provide a flank for your friendly neighborhood rogue usually seem like a good trade.
Of course this depends on the party composition and the enemies.
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Math StuffI think a more normal named bullet looks something like this:
VS TOUCH AC
+5 Enhancement from pool + weapon
+6 Deadly Aim
+2 STR
+1 Precise
+2d6 Gravity BowThat's for the Weapon damage.
Spell Damage:
1d6 Flame Arrow
+11 Named Bullet
Empowered Intensified Snowball cast from a 2nd level slot. 30d6Total:
37d6+53 = Avg. 183 damage. (max 275)
Don't forget to finish your full attack if it isn't dead.
Actually, you added some stuff I forgot about that certainly makes it more powerful. I'm still not sure I believe this out of the range of normal/possible for buffed DPR casters (magus, alchemist, etc.) but it certainly looks pretty powerful. (Still taking 3 spells two of which you invested arcana to get, since they aren't on the magus spell list (neither named bullet or gravity bow are magus spells), two metamagic feats (I'll say feats here since rods are harder to use while using a bow, and you'll probably want room for a quicken rod if anything), 1 arcane pool point, and a minimum of 1 trait.)
I honestly consider the two arcana that were legalized to be more powerful than the archetype.
I probably would have looked earlier but have been running a game.
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owner - Redcap's Corner, Owner - Redcap's Corner
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All the "archery and spells are the two most powerful things in the game" arguments strike me as disingenuous fear-mongering. This class has neither access to spells at the levels that make them crazy powerful, nor the available feat slots or BAB to do archery as well as most archers. The magus is THE class I play religiously, and I agree this is a powerful archetype, but those arguments are dishonest, and there's nothing this archetype gains that isn't offset by something else in a meaningful way. This thread is full of knee-jerks, arguments that assume ideal circumstances (under which all characters should be overpowered), and theory-crafting that sounds like it's coming from people who don't play magi.
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It'd be pretty cool to haste the party and drop 15d6+60 at the same time on the BBEG but I'm not so sure it's something we need to see too often. I've taken to self-nerfing my Myrmidarch by spending turns buffing the party or casting utilities instead of dealing roadshow blitzkrieg re-enactments from turn one. Archery is always good. Getting two turns worth of action would be crazy good.Can you please give us some details? I play a myrmidarch and while casting utility spells is a viable tactic, I don't see 15d6 damage from ranged attacks unless you invest heavily in elemental damage.
Why is your myrmidarch so problematic?
I don't know about problematic. It's just feels wonky having to choose between ending the combat or letting other people act too!
I don't know if the details really matter(just checked and I got it wrong: should be 2d6+15 per arrow). We can argue numbers allthread but the main issue is still action economy. Eldritch Archer wins it by a longshot(heh).
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All the "archery and spells are the two most powerful things in the game" arguments strike me as disingenuous fear-mongering. This class has neither access to spells at the levels that make them crazy powerful, nor the available feat slots or BAB to do archery as well as most archers. The magus is THE class I play religiously, and I agree this is a powerful archetype, but those arguments are dishonest, and there's nothing this archetype gains that isn't offset by something else in a meaningful way. This thread is full of knee-jerks, arguments that assume ideal circumstances (under which all characters should be overpowered), and theory-crafting that sounds like it's coming from people who don't play magi.
Honestly, I consider calling arguments against the Eldritch Archer as "knee-jerks" and "fear-mongering" as blatantly disrespectful and does nothing to contribute to the conversation other than further an air of hostility.
I'll be honest, you all raised solid points, and it is very difficult for me to set aside the way I really want to play a ranged Magus and instead look at the boundaries of what the Eldritch Archer is capable of. When I started this thread last night it seemed very obvious to me that while the Eldritch Archer is a strong archetype, it was by far so overpowered as to be banned in PFS. Now, when I look through all of your comments I can humbly say I am on the fence.
I feel you. I really want a good ranged magus archetype. This is something I've discussed with my peers around the homebrew forums. Every time it comes up, we all concluded that an archetype that simply makes all the melee-only class features become ranged-only class features would be broken. It would take some design finesse to pull it off. The only reason I haven't homebrewed a solution is because I have too many ideas of how it could work.
Admittedly, in some ways, I'm actually angry we got the Eldritch Archer. Many times, I feel we get content written by hardworking folks who, unfortunately, don't fully understand the class they're designing content for. The Myrmidarch had a nonfunctioning class feature for years and the Eldritch Scion is an absolute mess.
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I don't agree that I'm doing anything different here than what I would do when designing any other character I actually play. The level 5 build I posted is what I would actually roll up to a table with. My numbers aren't disingenuous; the equivalent Eldritch Archer to my Arcane Archer at 11 has at least 7 better to hit than I do despite its loss of bab where as I min/maxed mine to only lose 1 bab. An 11th lvl Eldritch archer will have +25 to hit when taking deadly aim and spell combat penalties.
At the end of the day it isn't about the accuracy and the damage though. It's about how efficient casting spells while always full attacking is from a position of relative safety.
The Myrmidarch had a nonfunctioning class feature for years
This class still can't spell combat. It still does not work even post errata.
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You're right about the arcane bond. One of big draws of getting to make a wizard arcane archer was the bonded object. In just a couple levels I'll be buying my +10 bonded weapon at about a 100,000 gold discount.
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Wow, I really did not expect this kind of response but I am very grateful that I was able to kick off so much constructive discussion around the archetype. Since John has chimed in (thanks John!) about revisiting this thread on Monday,...
It's late here, and my intention is to wait at least until I am back at work before making any decision on this front. I also encourage the community to weigh in.
1. John didn't promise an immediate decision.
2. Paizo is closed on Monday for a U.S.A. holiday.|
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You're right about the arcane bond. One of big draws of getting to make a wizard arcane archer was the bonded object. In just a couple levels I'll be buying my +10 bonded weapon at about a 100,000 gold discount.** spoiler omitted **
I'll be getting this at around 13 with the help of a boon to lower fame requirements.
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And as far as I know the arcane bond discount only get applied at the first upgrade -> so have fun spending a lot of your time with a weapon bow you must use.
A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a wizard with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat in Feats).
Adding New Abilities
Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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I don't agree that I'm doing anything different here than what I would do when designing any other character I actually play. The level 5 build I posted is what I would actually roll up to a table with. My numbers aren't disingenuous; the equivalent Eldritch Archer to my Arcane Archer at 11 has at least 7 better to hit than I do despite its loss of bab where as I min/maxed mine to only lose 1 bab. An 11th lvl Eldritch archer will have +25 to hit when taking deadly aim and spell combat penalties.
At the end of the day it isn't about the accuracy and the damage though. It's about how efficient casting spells while always full attacking is from a position of relative safety.
The Myrmidarch had a nonfunctioning class feature for yearsThis class still can't spell combat. It still does not work even post errata.
The mymdiarch was meant to be a switch-hitter magus-fighter, not a ranged magus.
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Overpowered =/= "broken", but...
RAW and using a 3,000gp rod, a 12th level magus with these arcana could fire an Intensified Shocking Grasp (10d6, not counting weapon damage on top of that) at ~500 feet.
Or, with an 11,000gp rod, three Maximized Scorching Ray arrows (24 + weapon damage each) also at ~500 feet.
To me, at least, that's pretty powerful damage output at a range difficult to fight back from for a very minimal cost for a PC.
Plus, those are just two quick examples that I came up with within a few seconds of seeing these arcana for the first time. I'm sure someone who's more rules-savvy than I could exploit them to a far greater extent.
Name the last scenario you played that had an opening combat range of 500 feet.
Alot of the fear seems to be "omg teh damages." and are using levels at which Investigators are one-shotting monsters to back it up. Damage is damage, sorry guys but your mosters are gonna die, they're supposed to.
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By 5th level you can have 8 scorching rays per day. At ranged with weapon damage. The vast increase in damage scaling for eldritch is too much. It just is. I'll post a 5th and a 10th level build later.
5th can do a ton of scorching Rays and 10th has the ability to chuck out disintegrates and eneverations with their ranged attacks. It just becomes insanely out of ability compared to other builds.
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By 5th level you can have 8 scorching rays per day. At ranged with weapon damage. The vast increase in damage scaling for eldritch is too much. It just is. I'll post a 5th and a 10th level build later.
5th can do a ton of scorching Rays and 10th has the ability to chuck out disintegrates and eneverations with their ranged attacks. It just becomes insanely out of ability compared to other builds.
I have yet to see anyone post anything that out damages current known benchmarks, many of which I might add are PFS legal.
If anything this seems to be a good reminder to scenario designers that wind wall is a thing
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Alot of the fear seems to be "omg teh damages." and are using levels at which Investigators are one-shotting monsters to back it up. Damage is damage, sorry guys but your mosters are gonna die, they're supposed to.
I don't understand why many folks say "It seems like most of the concerns are X," when people's concerns are X, Y, Z, A, B, etc. And many of these reasons individually are sufficient enough that the archetype should be banned.
There's no single reason why Eldritch Archer should not see play. There's many of them.
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At fifth level with +9 touch to hit with a d8+6+4d6x2 for two scorching Rays -+ your single d8+6 attack. It's pretty darn stupid.
At 9th level your firing three shots at 1d8+14 with an extra attack having a 32d6 dc 21 disintegrate attached to it.
so lets first point out some math issues. 1st for a magus to have 2 scorching rays he'd need to be 7th level. second ranged spell strike makes the all spells to target normal AC. so your 5th level archer is doing D8+6+4d6 + your single d8+6. which is downright pedestrian.
And your 9th level magus is illegally casting disintigrate 7 levels ahead of when he gets access to 6th level spells.
lol wut mate?
Alot of the fear seems to be "omg teh damages." and are using levels at which Investigators are one-shotting monsters to back it up. Damage is damage, sorry guys but your mosters are gonna die, they're supposed to.I don't understand why many folks say "It seems like most of the concerns are X," when people's concerns are X, Y, Z, A, B, etc. And many of these reasons individually are sufficient enough that the archetype should be banned.
There's no single reason why Eldritch Archer should not see play. There's many of them.
you say that but... the entire thread is about damage.
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9mm nope, everything is legal based upon fame. Just because you don't know how to make it happen doesn't make it illegal. But yes, with gear you can have 8 scorching Rays a day, and by 9th you can have 3 disintigrates.
Also, no. Spell strike doesn't change firearms from touch.
you can't use magic items to cast spells via spell combat so no you can't use your staff of many rays to cast disintegrate and shoot your bow, or gun in your case. If your getting it some where else my google fu isn't good enough; so you'll have to share.
scorching ray scales off level, not caster level, but for the sake of arguement lets say it did: you'd go from D8+6+4d6 + your single d8+6 to a whopping D8+6+4d6 + D8+6+4d6 and nothing else because multiple rays get attached to your basic attack.
again: LoL wut mate?
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Wand wielder allows you to do just that. I don't think once in a blue moon chronicle purchases are too worrisome though.
That said, we're at the point where people are starting to bring in corner cases and CharOp rhetoric. Next we start to argue definitions, somebody links to a fallacy or two, one or two posts get cleaned, etc. Time to let the thread simmer and see the campaign leadership's answer.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Alot of the fear seems to be "omg teh damages." and are using levels at which Investigators are one-shotting monsters to back it up. Damage is damage, sorry guys but your mosters are gonna die, they're supposed to.I don't understand why many folks say "It seems like most of the concerns are X," when people's concerns are X, Y, Z, A, B, etc. And many of these reasons individually are sufficient enough that the archetype should be banned.
There's no single reason why Eldritch Archer should not see play. There's many of them.
I think people have voiced a number of different, areas where some of the magus options worry them. Since the magus competes in many of those nieces with other classes, it can be hard to find a proper benchmark.
Ranged damage is something that is relatively easy to benchmark, of course even my sample characters make a couple of assumptions (fame and available funds, since there can be a world of difference between characters who only play in tier, and those who play up/down on a regular basis).
One of the core problems with this discussion comes from the fact, that it is difficult to evaluate the somewhat quantifiable chance to deliver a critical touch spell (with increased thread range, and additional attacks, easy access to spell storing etc.) in melee compared to the more intangible benefits and drawbacks when it comes to ranged combat.
The melee option certainly seems a bit more dangerous (with an increase DPS chance) but in my limited experience with PFS scenarios, quite often you have to deal with some kind of cover, and enemies like to turn your ranged fight into a melee fight.
I fear that without starting to quote scenarios this is a hard discussion to have, especially considering preexisting opinions regarding the value of ranged combat, group composition etc.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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By 5th level you can have 8 scorching rays per day. At ranged with weapon damage. The vast increase in damage scaling for eldritch is too much. It just is. I'll post a 5th and a 10th level build later.
5th can do a ton of scorching Rays and 10th has the ability to chuck out disintegrates and eneverations with their ranged attacks. It just becomes insanely out of ability compared to other builds.
Point of order though. 5th level you can have ranged scorching ray at 30' It's not until 12th level you can have long range fire from bows.