Does anyone else sometimes feel that there is too much magic in pathfinder in the sense that, magic is used where it isn't necessary.
for example. +1, +2, +3 etc. weapons. I don't see the need for these to be magical. personally I'd prefer it if each +1 represented the quality of the weapon. it also stops quality being binary. either something being masterwork or not masterwork.
I also think that it'd make martials more useful. having martials being useful for the +1, +2, +3 qualities and having casters responsible for the Flaming, Shocking, Brilliant qualities.
its just sometimes I feel that magic is used, where a small mechanism could be devised in stead. I remember being in a conversation about repeating crossbows once, and how they required a free hand to pull the lever and reload. someone suggested using the helping hands spell coupled with the permanency spell. and I was thinking, couldn't the trigger that fires the bolt also simultaneously load the next one?
does anyone else feel similarly. maybe not about the +1 qualities being non magical in nature, but about there being way to much reliance on magic within the world. I kind of feels like, unless you use magic, no ingenuity is allowed.
Yes, there is entirely too much magic in the system and the characters succeeding is based upon them gaining access to all of that junk.
Integrating it all into the characters themselves as a facet of leveling is a huge improvement to both player experience and setting cohesion IMO, though obviously others will differ.
could you give an example of what you mean by integrating it into the characters themselves?
I kind of feel the same about the +1 weapons. It does feel like you could explain the differences as just being a result of different materials going into the process and just better craftmanship.
I am currently running a low magic campaign where characters are predominantly using masterwork weapons, there are no casters other than a swashbuckler dipping one level into bard and they seem to be enjoying the story and challenge.
Characters only need ever increasing pluses if the challenges they face require these. as a DM you have full control over the challenges the party faces so make it as magic intense or magic free as you like.
I have never understood the premise that pathfinder suffers from bloat of magic, spells etc. when DM just restrict the characters to however much or little you like.
I am currently running a low magic campaign where characters are predominantly using masterwork weapons, there are no casters other than a swashbuckler dipping one level into bard and they seem to be enjoying the story and challenge.
Characters only need ever increasing pluses if the challenges they face require these. as a DM you have full control over the challenges the party faces so make it as magic intense or magic free as you like.
I have never understood the premise that pathfinder suffers from bloat of magic, spells etc. when DM just restrict the characters to however much or little you like.
I don't think anyone is arguing that you couldn't have a good game if you just remove a lot of the magic. what I'm saying is that it feels that magic is used in excess when non-magical equivalents make just as much or even more sense.
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A toast:
TO MUCH MAGIC!
Does anyone else sometimes feel that there is too much magic in pathfinder in the sense that, magic is used where it isn't necessary.
for example. +1, +2, +3 etc. weapons. I don't see the need for these to be magical. personally I'd prefer it if each +1 represented the quality of the weapon. it also stops quality being binary. either something being masterwork or not masterwork.
So, would this masterwork bonus (that works like an enhancement) grant +1 hit and +1 dam or just +1?
Would it cost +2000 gold or just +300 gp for a weapon?
So +3 Weapons are really expensive mundane weapons?
Not till you have +4 is it magical?
Does magic weapon make it Masterwork? Or just Increase the +X to a weapon in this new paradigm you thought up?
Does anyone else sometimes feel that there is too much magic in pathfinder in the sense that, magic is used where it isn't necessary.
for example. +1, +2, +3 etc. weapons. I don't see the need for these to be magical. personally I'd prefer it if each +1 represented the quality of the weapon. it also stops quality being binary. either something being masterwork or not masterwork.
So, would this masterwork bonus (that works like an enhancement) grant +1 hit and +1 dam or just +1?
Would it cost +2000 gold or just +300 gp for a weapon?
So +3 Weapons are really expensive mundane weapons?
Not till you have +4 is it magical?Does magic weapon make it Masterwork? Or just Increase the +X to a weapon in this new paradigm you thought up?
yes +1 to hit and damage.
it would cost +2000
no, all of the +x enhancements would be non magical. so a +2 weapon would be non magical, but a +1 flaming weapon would. so lets say that the +X are enhancement bonuses whilst the Flaming, shocking etc. are enchantment bonuses.
personally I don't understand why items need to be masterwork in order to have magic placed on them. I don't get how non sentient magic somehow has standards for something as subjective as quality.
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I agree, way too much magic.
Magic is like sex, it sells product. I say dump the magic and add more sex. ;)
But seriously it has gotten to a point where I occasionally see magic items that really don't need to be magical at all. For example, the far reaching sight from Ultimate Equipment. It just helps you shoot better from a distance. If it revealed invisible targets (like a seeker's sight) then that would be magical.
Green Ronin press created a system for adding non-magical attack bonuses to weapons up to +3 that worked alongside the enhancement bonus system. It can be found in the Advanced Gamemaster's Guide. They call them renowned and legendary weapons.
I once worked out a system that does exactly what you're requesting--it dumps the enhancement bonus and replaces it with a masterwork bonus. It wasn't simple and straightforward because I wanted it to play with the rest of the games rules as seamlessly as possible. I had to carefully rewrite several key passages in the Core Rulebook concerning pricing, purchasing, and creating magic weapons.
The prices for masterwork weapons came out to:
+1 500
+2 4,250
+3 11,250
+4 21,500
+5 35,000
In this system he main difference between a non-magical and magical weapon of the same enhancement bonus is getting around damage reduction, so I came up with a pricing scheme for enchanting weapons depending on its masterwork enhancement bonus:
+1 1500
+2 3,750
+3 6,750
+4 10,500
+5 15,000
Unlike the Green Ronin system this system replaces the current enhancement bonus system. If you would like a full write-up I could maybe send it to you.
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I want to say no but the reliance on magical weapons for mundane bonuses does get to me sometimes. Mostly because its like a separate leveling track. That has got to be the most boring equipment. +1 attack and damage. +2 to a stat. It wouldn't hurt so much if they did something interesting on top of that but they don't feel like 'real' magic items. For example a belt of strength should let you throw boulders instead or on top of just +2 strength. +2 to strength doesn't make you feel like the belt is making you strong, it just feels like a number went up. And that's the real crux of it. Magic just becomes mundane after a while and that's what really irks me about the whole situation. If you have a grand ole' adventure each level then sure you'd be decked out with a ton of magic items by lvl 20, but we have it set that most magic items are just hanging out in stores like its just some everyday occurrence.
Actually, most of the time I think there is too little magic.
Think about it, if we had magic to do what one can do in PF, how many things do you think we'd be using it for.
We have technology, and look how much we have it in our lives.
I imagine magic being that pervasive in real magic setting.
As for magical equipment...we have different qualities of items already. We have that motorcycle (a masterwork itself if you think of blacksmithing in the old days, the metals involved, how many interworking parts there are...etc)...then we have the Rocketbike by Toyota +1, than we have the basic Harley/Gold Wing +2, then we have the Deluxe Harley +3, then we have everything with it and more +5 Harley with everything from helmet radio, to a comforter, to the side bike and the works.
I have no problem with the rising amount of magical weapons and as you either gain money to get them, or gain the experience to find them...just like in the real world...you upgrade.
I couldn't imagine trying to get around the US without my magic mount...er...vehicle. I can go faster than most that are even using magical spells for the most part!
Does anyone else sometimes feel that there is too much magic in pathfinder in the sense that, magic is used where it isn't necessary.
for example. +1, +2, +3 etc. weapons. I don't see the need for these to be magical. personally I'd prefer it if each +1 represented the quality of the weapon. it also stops quality being binary. either something being masterwork or not masterwork.
So, would this masterwork bonus (that works like an enhancement) grant +1 hit and +1 dam or just +1?
Would it cost +2000 gold or just +300 gp for a weapon?
So +3 Weapons are really expensive mundane weapons?
Not till you have +4 is it magical?Does magic weapon make it Masterwork? Or just Increase the +X to a weapon in this new paradigm you thought up?
yes +1 to hit and damage.
it would cost +2000
no, all of the +x enhancements would be non magical. so a +2 weapon would be non magical, but a +1 flaming weapon would. so lets say that the +X are enhancement bonuses whilst the Flaming, shocking etc. are enchantment bonuses.
personally I don't understand why items need to be masterwork in order to have magic placed on them. I don't get how non sentient magic somehow has standards for something as subjective as quality.
Does Magic Weapon spell still do anything? Does it instead just increase materwork bonus (or grant one of not)?
Have you looked at the new alternate rules from Unchained? You might find the Automatic Bonus Progression system interesting. It integrates several of the unnecessary bonuses you're talking about into character progression, leaving magic to be more magical and less about number bonuses.
Does Magic Weapon spell still do anything? Does it instead just increase materwork bonus (or grant one of not)?
Magic weapon would give the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus and enchant it, making it magical primarily for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, striking incorporeal creatures, etc.
You may also be interested in the Stamina and Combat Tricks system from Unchained. It's a kind of self buff system that doesn't rely on magic. Also, take a look at Hero Poits to be used instead of, or in conjunction with, the Stamina system.
Actually, most of the time I think there is too little magic.
Think about it, if we had magic to do what one can do in PF, how many things do you think we'd be using it for.
We have technology, and look how much we have it in our lives.
I imagine magic being that pervasive in real magic setting.
As for magical equipment...we have different qualities of items already. We have that motorcycle (a masterwork itself if you think of blacksmithing in the old days, the metals involved, how many interworking parts there are...etc)...then we have the Rocketbike by Toyota +1, than we have the basic Harley/Gold Wing +2, then we have the Deluxe Harley +3, then we have everything with it and more +5 Harley with everything from helmet radio, to a comforter, to the side bike and the works.
I have no problem with the rising amount of magical weapons and as you either gain money to get them, or gain the experience to find them...just like in the real world...you upgrade.
I couldn't imagine trying to get around the US without my magic mount...er...vehicle. I can go faster than most that are even using magical spells for the most part!
This is a great expression of what I like to call "Modern Magic", a sense of magic that is comparable to technology. A modern magical world applies a modern understanding of economics, and science to magic.
However this is only one sense of magic. Another is "Mystical Magic" which applies myth and mystery to magic. Some people prefer mystical magic and some prefer modern magic.
A world tends to default to modern magic when magic is ubiquitous. And magic in the game is apparently ubiquitous because player characters and non player characters have so much access to it. I think this situation has come about for several reasons; one is the reward structure of the game, another is just plain old consumer desire for magic items. However there is another more subtle reason, and that is mathematical dependency.
What I mean by mathematical dependency is the prevalence of Dungeon Masters and adventure writers to drape their NPCs in magic items simply to bring their numbers up to the appropriate challenge rating. Just pick an NPC at random and they most likely are going to have 2 or 3 or more simple stat boosting items like belts and cloaks and magic weapons. This state of affairs tends to support the conclusion that magic items are very common, and a Modern Magical world begins to unfold.
I personally have begun eliminating these items from an NPC's gear and just directly apply the bonuses to their stats. The belts and headbands are easiest, I just increase the relevant ability scores. Weapon bonuses I just apply to the base attack bonus, cloak bonuses to the base save bonus.
Another thing that promotes modern magic is that because magic items likes belts and headbands are valuable and baked into the wealth by level assumption, players naturally want to sell them and realise their wealth potential. This promotes a magic item economy and...a modern magical world unfolds.
When I eliminate magic items from an NPC opponent I try and replace it with an equivalent amount of valuable treasure. Sometimes it's several thousand gold added to a chronologically nearby treasure trove, or a gift from a benefactor, or sometimes it is just replaced with jewelry that the NPC wears.
Anyway, it's not for everyone. Some people, the vast majority it would seem, favor a world with a sense of Modern Magic, where magic is a useful tool, while others favor a sense of Mystical Magic where magic is a rare mystery. The game is certainly robust enough to accommodate both. Or is it?
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Automatic bonus progression from Unchained helps out a lot.
I would also look at the revised action economy if you are feeling bad for martials.
Our group uses both now. People actually play martials again. We couldn't be bothered anymore with needing to hunt for boring items or dreading needing to move 10ft or more.