I have hard time ever accepting that divine magic could be anything but absolute and all-powerful.
It always feels wrong that somehow the omnipowerful magic is reduced somehow.
Honestly the martial arts thing may explain WHY there are different styles of say... kicks (aka magic) but it falls apart on why you cant mix. In fact, it highlights the awkwardness of it.
So you got a Karate (magus) and Wing Chun (wizard) kick (magic missile). Each learns their own way to kick. But when a single person learns both, there is nothing stopping them from using a Karate kick while in a wing chun posture or vice versa. MMA mixes things up all the time.
Hobestly the ASF i feel is literally just a balancing thing. The only reason a magus can do.X spell with no ASF amd a wizard cant is because game reasons. It gets weirder with things like Summoner who obviously is very spell focused.
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You're still not quite getting Jiggy's point. Imagine sitting before two pianos in a cold room and wearing winter gloves. You wish to play Flight of the Bumblebee. One piano has the entire song programmed into one key, and you need only hold it down for the duration of the song. The other piano requires you to play every note yourself. Your winter gloves will surely be a problem here. The point is, you have two methods of playing the song, but one requires you to remove your winter gloves and freeze your hands. Sure, practicing the right way will ultimately lead you down a more musically talented path, but in the moment, where a man is pointing a gun at you and saying "I want to hear Flight of the Bumblebee - twice - I don't care how," when would you ever try playing the manual piano with those winter gloves on?
Simple, retrain all Wizard levels into Magus levels...lol.
I think the easiest way for me to address that question is to treat Magic as a logic system. So if we think of the magic user's brain as an Hard Drive then the Wizard class' style of casting is like an Operating System, and the Magus class' style of casting is a different OS. This leaves spells as the individual programs that can be executed.
Now we all know that you can start with a blank Hard Drive and load any OS you want. But if you want to have two different Operating Systems running on the same Hard Drive you have to build partitions.
So, if we think of the Wizard class' style as an Apple OS and the Magus class' style as a Windows OS it is much easier to see why a Wiz 1/Mag 1 can't use his Magus (Windows OS) Partition to operate Wizard (Apple OS) spells (proprietary software).
You have a very small Partition set up for each. Individually they only have so much capacity and you have to use both if you want access to your entire Hard Drive's capability. You can operate purely on the Windows side of your Hard Drive if you want, but you would still have the Linux Partition just sitting there doing nothing but taking up space. It would certainly be nice if those Partitions didn't exist and the two Operating Systems could run seamlessly together on your Hard Drive, but that's simply not how they work.
So, if you really want your entire Hard Drive to operate on Windows, you have to reformat the drive. Sorry, those two Operating Systems just don't communicate well, and you can't run programs from one OS on the other OS. See rules for Reformatting the Hard Drive.
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actually you can use something like VMware to create a virtual parition within your OSX environment to operate windows within OS X.
Or you can always create a hidden encrypted partition within another "normal" parition and have a encrypted version of linux within that parition utilizing something like Veracrypt...
I like.computers.... i love safety...
actually you can use something like VMware to create a virtual parition within your OSX environment to operate windows within OS X.
Or you can always create a hidden encrypted partition within another "normal" parition and have a encrypted version of linux within that parition utilizing something like Veracrypt...
I like.computers.... i love safety...
Or...if you are a normal person who doesn't have the knowledge level of a typical computer science graduate(at least) you could take your Wizard and your Magus and use them to run a browser.
So...are we regretting using vague inaccurate computing metaphors when much of the forum base is extremely technically literate yet?
actually you can use something like VMware to create a virtual parition within your OSX environment to operate windows within OS X.
Or you can always create a hidden encrypted partition within another "normal" parition and have a encrypted version of linux within that parition utilizing something like Veracrypt...
I like.computers.... i love safety...
Or...if you are a normal person who doesn't have at least the knowledge level of a typical computer science graduate you could take your Wizard and your Magus and use them to run a browser.
So...are we regretting using vague inaccurate computing metaphors when a significant chunk of the forum base are extremely technically literate yet?
Lol well you just want to do that big brother google has you covered.
actually you can use something like VMware to create a virtual parition within your OSX environment to operate windows within OS X.
Or you can always create a hidden encrypted partition within another "normal" parition and have a encrypted version of linux within that parition utilizing something like Veracrypt...
I know, but for the purposes of this conversation, I left those types of things out. Those options don't exist in PF for the Wizard / Magus OS.
So you got a Karate (magus) and Wing Chun (wizard) kick (magic missile). Each learns their own way to kick. But when a single person learns both, there is nothing stopping them from using a Karate kick while in a wing chun posture or vice versa.
By and large, yes there is. Speaking from extensive experience, not just stuff I read somewhere or saw in a UFC match. But a debate like that is not the purpose for this thread, or probably this website. PM me if you'd seriously like to discuss it.
MMA mixes things up all the time.
What MMA generally refers to is a bad example of what you are talking about. It's a band-wagon term that usually translates to "I do something that loosely resembles Muay Thai and something that loosely resembles Judo or Jui-Jitsu, but I'm not very good at either. Anyone with legitimate training would humiliate me."
Now that's an interesting answer.
Thanks.
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actually you can use something like VMware to create a virtual parition within your OSX environment to operate windows within OS X.
Or you can always create a hidden encrypted partition within another "normal" parition and have a encrypted version of linux within that parition utilizing something like Veracrypt...
I know, but for the purposes of this conversation, I left those types of things out. Those options don't exist in PF for the Wizard / Magus OS.
{. . .}
You need to check into . . . VMCware.
actually you can use something like VMware to create a virtual parition within your OSX environment to operate windows within OS X.
Or you can always create a hidden encrypted partition within another "normal" parition and have a encrypted version of linux within that parition utilizing something like Veracrypt...
I know, but for the purposes of this conversation, I left those types of things out. Those options don't exist in PF for the Wizard / Magus OS.
{. . .}You need to check into . . . VMCware.
Interesting. The document says it's a variant in PF Unchained; I don't have the book and couldn't find that rule system in d20pfsrd, is it actually in Unchained? If so, that's pretty awesome, I've wanted to do something similar for Prestige classes, basically turn them into templates rather than a full multiclass thing.
If that is the official break down of the Variant Multiclass rules, you still wouldn't solve the Wizard 1/Magus 1 OS partition issue I was talking about. In regards to being able to use Wizard spell slots to cast while wearing armor without ASF chance.
Interesting. The document says it's a variant in PF Unchained; I don't have the book and couldn't find that rule system in d20pfsrd, is it actually in Unchained? If so, that's pretty awesome, I've wanted to do something similar for Prestige classes, basically turn them into templates rather than a full multiclass thing.
It's under Classes > Character Advancement
Still waiting for it to show up on the PRD :/
Someone in Homebrew came up with variants for the occult classes, as well.
Interesting. The document says it's a variant in PF Unchained; I don't have the book and couldn't find that rule system in d20pfsrd, is it actually in Unchained? If so, that's pretty awesome, I've wanted to do something similar for Prestige classes, basically turn them into templates rather than a full multiclass thing.It's under Classes > Character Advancement
Still waiting for it to show up on the PRD :/
Someone in Homebrew came up with variants for the occult classes, as well.
Nice, thanks.
I have hard time ever accepting that divine magic could be anything but absolute and all-powerful.
It always feels wrong that somehow the omnipowerful magic is reduced somehow.
Why would divine magic be all powerful when the deity in question is not all powerful? Unless you are playing in a universe with a single all powerful monotheistic deity the gods are not all powerful. None of the deities in the pathfinder universe even claim to be all powerful. Even Asmodeus who claims to have written the contract of creation does not claim to be omnipotent. None of the deities of good make any claims on omnipotence either.
^With Divine Magic, you are getting a handout as opposed to getting the power yourself. The had that feeds you may want to limit how much they give you, but on the other hand give you versatility that is hard to get otherwise, such as healing. Of course, this works better in a setting where deities are actually drawing power from their worshippers -- they have to take a cut before handing it out to their agents. (This is explicitly NOT the case in Golarion -- makes the system harder to justify mechanically, but on the other hand enables deities to be Good for real, since they aren't inherently parasites).
^I prefer to think of Divine Magic as Faith Magic. It's not a handout any more than Arcane Magic is, it's simply the caster's faith funneled into magical effect and is thus limited by the level of the caster.
But then the deity/entity that is object of worship becomes completely unneeded and pointless
^I prefer to think of Divine Magic as Faith Magic. It's not a handout any more than Arcane Magic is, it's simply the caster's faith funneled into magical effect and is thus limited by the level of the caster.But then the deity/entity that is object of worship becomes completely unneeded and pointlessExactly!
How often in Myth do the gods give a damn about their worshipers?
The Old Testament has a lot of instances
The Old Testament has a lot of instances^I prefer to think of Divine Magic as Faith Magic. It's not a handout any more than Arcane Magic is, it's simply the caster's faith funneled into magical effect and is thus limited by the level of the caster.But then the deity/entity that is object of worship becomes completely unneeded and pointlessExactly!
How often in Myth do the gods give a damn about their worshipers?
Yes, Monotheistic faiths have many, many instances.
I was more thinking Greek and Norse and Native American myth. [Most Kami couldn't care less about the people that honor them either, though I'm familiar with a few exceptions.]
I myself have always based the pantheon of my games loosely on Greek mythology. The gods, while wise and powerful, are also full of character faults, and are very capable of making mistakes that could cost the lives of hundreds. Some deities would consider this a bad thing, others would not. Though the gods of my games usually don't take day trips down to earth like in Greek Mythology, and there certainly aren't half gods.The gods exist simply BECAUSE they are worshiped, though they don't feel the need to repay or save their "creators", unless of course their worshipers are in danger directly caused by another deity.
^I prefer to think of Divine Magic as Faith Magic. It's not a handout any more than Arcane Magic is, it's simply the caster's faith funneled into magical effect and is thus limited by the level of the caster.But then the deity/entity that is object of worship becomes completely unneeded and pointless
Which makes sense, as the Deity is completely unnecessary.
Domains
Clerics may select any two of the domains granted by their deity. Clerics without a deity may select any two domains (choice are subject to GM approval).
If that's how your game setting and GM roll. Golarion and PFS make the diety VERY neccessary if you're a cleric. And if a certain director had had his way the whole concept of godless clerics would have been shoved into the trash pile it should have been buried in.
Which makes sense, as the Deity is completely unnecessary.
Domains
Clerics may select any two of the domains granted by their deity. Clerics without a deity may select any two domains (choice are subject to GM approval).
I wouldn't want to throw the concept of godless Clerics in the trash pile, but I wouldnt make it easy either. I liked the D&D 3.5 concept of the Ur-Priest (although I am unfortunately not familiar of the mechanical details). Officially, divine magic would have to come from deities or something with such great philosophical import as Nature (even an alignment wouldn't be enough, although it could help gain divine power in conjunction with something else; with respect to Nature itself, think of it more like The Force). In practice, a small number of individuals would manage to circumvent this limitation. Deities and normal divie casters would often attempt to stamp out such infidels, but in places where religions are repressed (even by other religions), Ur-Priests would be on a more even footing with those of the repressed religions; conversely, a power-mad ruler with delusions of divinity might be able to get a following of Ur-Priests, and eventually even become truly divine (and some "normal" deities might have ascended that way in the first place, although in the case of a recent ascension of that type, the priesthood would likely have considerable trappings left over from their Ur-Priest phase).
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Technically Ur priests were ANTI theist instead of Atheist. They believed in them, they just hate them and steal from them.
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I think LazarX was specifically putting down the notion of "hmm this domain is perfect for my munchkin Cleric, and THAT domain is AMAZING for it. But no one deity has both domains. Fortunately, I don't need to worship a deity. It happens to be my character's philosophy to follow the lifestyles behind both Good and Murder..."
The term "godless cleric" is a misnomer.... of course the cleric has a god (or gods), it just doesnt worship it in the direct sense.
A good example would be the Fire Priestess from GOT.... essentially she worships fire and by her dedication is noticed and empowered by a god who has an affinity for it.
In PF however you worship Asmodeus and as a reward he grants you fire related powers.
As a cleric of a "philosophy"... you worship and venerate a concept and by your prowess are noticed by a god who grants you power. In the case of fire, it might Asmodeus or it could be Sarenrae or Brigh.
This is different from an Oracle who basically has a set of powers forced upon them with very little say in the matter. They have been "chosen" for some unknown reason.
For the average person... deeds ARE proof. Healing the sick, raising the dead, getting answers from commune spells, or invoking the curse of a god... and having it take effect... that's proof to anyone but the extremely pedantic.
Logically, if we're going discussing effects as judged by the common man as proving the existence of gods, then, beyond godless clerics, any of the below could "prove" their existence without need of gods actually existing.
alchemists (healing the sick)
druids (commune with nature, curing the sick)
inquisitors (you can even be an inquisitor of a political regime!)
witches (can do all of the above things)
wizards (can bestow and remove curses, contact other plane)
Defeats the whole point of Divine magic, that are BESTOWED powers.
They should all be arcane and psychic casters at this point.
If you have divine miracles present on your world, it's really hard to maintain doubt that divine powers exist. Raising someone from the dead, or bringing health to the terminally ill by touch doesn't leave much room for doubt.
Except that classes like the Shaman and Oracle also exist and don't rely on a god's power to produce equally divine miracles. It's spirit healing in one form or another. Before those classes were developed a Cleric with no particular deity was a good way to reproduce a Shaman type spirit healer.
Unfortunately this also leaves room for the kind of shenanigans that Cuup was talking about, but that section of the Cleric Domain rules also says the selections are subject to GM approval.
Defeats the whole point of Divine magic, that are BESTOWED powers.
They should all be arcane and psychic casters at this point.
To each his own I suppose, Entryhazard.
For me I LIKE the idea of Faith Magic being distinct, being something powered not by one's inner magic [sorcerers] nor one's scientific study of arcane forces [wizards and magi] nor the guidance of a patron [witch.]
Faith Magic is Faith. It's the power of one's belief in something made manifest as miracles.
if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move.
And all.
That doesn't really counter my point, as this is exactly how the Psychic with the Faith Discipline works
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I think that magic works because a wizard made it that way.
That doesn't really counter my point, as this is exactly how the Psychic with the Faith Discipline works
Actually, you have to to choose a deity to follow to get the faith discipline. Further, it is one's own faith, not the faith of a collective belief that might empower the clric as some nonanthroporphic philosophy or force. The psychic is about establishing faith through empowering of the intellect, rather than tapping into the wisdom of the ages. Prayers and holy symbol function as connections to the wellspring of divine or faith power the godless cleric draws from. With the faith psychic, it is purely from the mind.
(Since this is a discussion on "why magic works", I'm leaving aside practical issues like some games not wanting to use Occult Adventures and godless clerics being around for a much greater time than psychics with the faith discipline.)
That doesn't really counter my point, as this is exactly how the Psychic with the Faith Discipline worksActually, you have to to choose a deity to follow to get the faith discipline. Further, it is one's own faith, not the faith of a collective belief that might empower the clric as some nonanthroporphic philosophy or force. The psychic is about establishing faith through empowering of the intellect, rather than tapping into the wisdom of the ages. Prayers and holy symbol function as connections to the wellspring of divine or faith power the godless cleric draws from. With the faith psychic, it is purely from the mind.
(Since this is a discussion on "why magic works", I'm leaving aside practical issues like some games not wanting to use Occult Adventures and godless clerics being around for a much greater time than psychics with the faith discipline.)
My point is that while the Psychic with the Faith Discipline has to worship a deity, his powers come from his own conviction rather than being bestowed from the deity with just a couple of exceptions (planar ally and miracle depending on how do you interpret them)
Technically Ur priests were ANTI theist instead of Atheist. They believed in them, they just hate them and steal from them.
Well, that's what I mean -- they don't worship deities. Although it would be kind of funny to have an actual deity that specializes in teaching worshippers to steal power from other deities -- I smell an Ur-Priest archetype here, or sub-archetype if Ur-Priest is already an archetype of Cleric. Another archetype (or sub-archetype) possibility would be a variant of Ur-Priest who says "I don't even need to steal from you lousy deities -- I'm going to develop an arcane-to-divine converter and get power on my own". These last ones would probably be viewed as really dangerous.