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While the mechanics of how magic works are quite clear, I've always been interested in the why. Below, I've summarized why different types of magic work the way they do based on my own reasonings and perceptions of the game, for no other reason than I wanted too. And now I'm sharing it with all of you because I want to. Hopefully some of you find it interesting :)
Arcane Magic
Latent energy present in-between the threads of reality, Arcane Magic is the power of the universe itself. It’s unbound by the rules of space, time, and matter. Arcane Magic is the most potent and world-shattering of all magic, and can be harnessed by formulaic knowledge of its functions, or by an innate connection to the cosmic power. While Arcane Magic itself isn’t bound by rules of reality, those who wield it must observe strict limitations, like speaking words of power and following strict physical gestures, which unlock specific cracks in reality and alter it in a specific way. Deviating from these rules results in failure. For most casters of Arcane Magic, restrictive movement from wearing armor can be enough to cause a simple spell to fail.
Divine Magic
Beings of immense power can offer a portion of themselves to devout followers of their philosophies. While these beings themselves are fueled by the Arcane Magic permeating the universe, that power is manifested by those followers who in turn receive their deity’s power. In short, Arcane Magic is harnessed through conscious faith and channeled into a being, an environment, or even a concept, and through a universal mindset vast enough, transformed into Divine Magic. Once warped into such, Divine Magic acts as a bridge, connecting a practitioner of a specific lifestyle, faith, or philosophy to a corresponding deific body. The deific body is only as strong as the faith which sustains it, though; if enough followers of a specific deity were to renounce their faith, the deity would cease to exist – or at the very least, cease being a focus of Divine Magic. Harnessing Divine Magic is usually deliberate, and acts as a pact between subject and deity. Because of this, using Divine Magic is typically easier than Arcane Magic. Still Arcane at its roots, most spells still require specific words of power and physical gestures. However, a higher power is doing most of the work, which results in less strenuously perfect gestures, which comfortably allows armor to be worn. Unfortunately, being so far from its Arcane source, Divine Magic tends to be more tame in nature.
Psychic Magic
All sentient beings possess inner reserves of power. This is evident in their ability to channel conscious faith into divine beings, as well as Ki, Grit, and other displays of outstanding acts. Most obtusely, though, this is displayed as Magic. This power is also Arcane in origin, but almost in a primordial way. It isn’t directly tied to the Arcane Magic permeating the universe, though it does share many similarities; a greater understanding of the universe and its secrets often results in a better understanding of the Psychic Magic flowing within. Psychic Magic isn’t fueled by the universe at all – it’s fueled by the life force of the being housing it, and honed by innate understanding of oneself. Because of this, no physical gestures or even words of power are needed to tap into its depths – only a clear and unmolested mind. When left to his own devices, a wielder of Psychic Magic can accomplish feats rivaling even a wielder of Arcane Magic. However, a Psychic spellcaster isn’t merely exploiting a formulaic chain reaction of latent energy, or allowing a higher being with acute control to shape the magic for them; they must mold the raw power within themselves into the desired spell through their own willpower and concentration. A trivial tug on a Psychic spellcaster’s concentration, or the tiniest bump in their emotional spectrum can undo the casting of even the simplest of spells.
Sounds reasonable.
I like it. :D
Fundamentally magic works because of itself. It is it's own justification that is what separates magic from technology and science.
Arcane, divine, and psychic are non essential divisions put in place by the mechanisms of the universe they are practiced in. I would not go so far to say that any has intrinsic meanings independent of contect.
I would amend your thoughts the following ways.
The magic divine casters do is being able to acquire power from divines. It's similar to pact magic or consorting with demons. The true magic being done is in getting the power not using it.
Psychic and arcane are very similar to me. Both are true magic only able to be performed because the world is not fully rational. But if I had to draw a distinction I would say arcanes conform the universe to their wills while psychics impose their will directly on the universe. The arcane has not limited themself on the method like the psychic, hence why psychic is weaker.
Dot for later.
@OP: I would agree with you on Divine magic, except that in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, deities explicitly DON'T depend upon their worshippers for existence or power. While that runs contratry to other campaign settings, that is actually a good thing, because it opens up the possibility for deities to be actually Good on account of not being obligate parasites. Of course, arguably that means that they aren't true deities, but instead extremely powerful Outsiders (and the Pathfinder Campaign Setting has a canon of powerful Outsiders upgrading to deities, including but not limited to Empyreal Lords, Demon Lords, Archdevils, etc. as a transitional phase). But that's a good thing.
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Fun read! One issue, though:
Arcane Magic
.... While Arcane Magic itself isn’t bound by rules of reality, those who wield it must observe strict limitations, like speaking words of power and following strict physical gestures, which unlock specific cracks in reality and alter it in a specific way. Deviating from these rules results in failure. For most casters of Arcane Magic, restrictive movement from wearing armor can be enough to cause a simple spell to fail.
This is a bit of a hole in your idea. Consider a magus1/wizard1. He has magic missile prepared in a magus slot and in a wizard slot. The spells are the same: the same incantation, the same gestures, the same Spellcraft DC to identify them being cast, they're both arcane, they're both cast by the same person, and so forth.
But one of them is interfered with by armor while the other is not.
Good luck with that. ;)
Fun read! One issue, though:
Arcane Magic
.... While Arcane Magic itself isn’t bound by rules of reality, those who wield it must observe strict limitations, like speaking words of power and following strict physical gestures, which unlock specific cracks in reality and alter it in a specific way. Deviating from these rules results in failure. For most casters of Arcane Magic, restrictive movement from wearing armor can be enough to cause a simple spell to fail.This is a bit of a hole in your idea. Consider a magus1/wizard1. He has magic missile prepared in a magus slot and in a wizard slot. The spells are the same: the same incantation, the same gestures, the same Spellcraft DC to identify them being cast, they're both arcane, they're both cast by the same person, and so forth.
But one of them is interfered with by armor while the other is not.
Good luck with that. ;)
You'll notice I said for MOST casters of Arcane Magic.
@UnArcaneElection: I've always looked at it as Torag is a LG deity of protection, the forge, Dwarves, and so on BECAUSE he's worshiped as such. He doesn't follow Paladin rules, where he loses his powers if he does something outside his alignment/portfolio. If for some reason the vast majorities of Torag started to worship him as an evil or vengeful smith, he would over time gain those qualities. Of course, there's no logical reason that would happen, and he'd most likely send his Angels to the Material Plane to intervene before any permanent changes occurred, since his current alignment/portfolio dictates that he would. I see deities as projections of faith; they exist simply because we believe in them. They're not leaches, they're weird solar panel mirrors.
There are some exceptions, like mortals who transcended, such as Cayden Cailean or Iomedae, or beings who have always existed, like Asmodeus. They're more of the [wouldn't cease to exist, but would no longer be a Divine Focus (though still be beings of immense power regardless)] subgroup. Since these deities had a will and personality before gaining deific powers, they do run the risk of losing their powers if they misbehave to a certain caliber, but they're also free to nudge their faith a little this way or that, since they're not simply projections of that which their followers believe in, and can set their goals outside their niches if they go about it correctly (a process that could take millenia)
@Cuup: Jiggy was referring to the fact that the Magus1/Wizard1 was the same character, using a Wizard spell slot to prepare Magic Missile (this one being interfered with by armor) and a Magus spell slot to prepare Magic Missile. Why does that same character need to take off his armor for one but not the other?
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@Cuup: Jiggy was referring to the fact that the Magus1/Wizard1 was the same character, using a Wizard spell slot to prepare Magic Missile (this one being interfered with by armor) and a Magus spell slot to prepare Magic Missile. Why does that same character need to take off his armor for one but not the other?
Sacred Cows that will never die.
It's also been stated (as far as Golarion lore goes), that deities are not dependent on their worshipers to function. A deity could have no worshipers and still be considered a deity.
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@Cuup: Jiggy was referring to the fact that the Magus1/Wizard1 was the same character, using a Wizard spell slot to prepare Magic Missile (this one being interfered with by armor) and a Magus spell slot to prepare Magic Missile. Why does that same character need to take off his armor for one but not the other?
I see. In order to answer that, we need to get simple. Lego-simple. You could build a simple house from a dozen or so Legos, or you could use one big, solid, pre-made piece. Both make a house, yet one is much sturdier (the single piece) than the other, but the other (a dozen or so individual pieces) has much more potential - it can be a house, or you could reassemble its pieces to become but a tiny part of a castle. There are multitudes of formulaic expressions of the same spell permeating the universe, and some are finer than others. Arcane Casters like the Magus, who spend half their time honing other skills, settle on the [single-piece house] equations, which meet the same goal and are a little easier to utilize, while the truly committed, like the Wizard push themselves to utilize the [house from dozens of smaller Lego blocks] equations, which require more concentration and control. The [single-piece house] equations are also more taxing (sort of like swallowing a mouthful of food before chewing enough). Magus', who are tougher from their martial training have trained to bare this extra strain. The most powerful of spells can only be unlocked with [house from dozens of smaller Lego blocks] equations, which is why Magus' and Bards can't cast spells over 6th level.
@Nargemn: I've personally never played in a Golarion setting.
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@Cuup: Jiggy was referring to the fact that the Magus1/Wizard1 was the same character, using a Wizard spell slot to prepare Magic Missile (this one being interfered with by armor) and a Magus spell slot to prepare Magic Missile. Why does that same character need to take off his armor for one but not the other?I see. In order to answer that, we need to get simple. Lego-simple. You could build a simple house from a dozen or so Legos, or you could use one big, solid, pre-made piece. Both make a house, yet one is much sturdier (the single piece) than the other, but the other (a dozen or so individual pieces) has much more potential - it can be a house, or you could reassemble its pieces to become but a tiny part of a castle. There are multitudes of formulaic expressions of the same spell permeating the universe, and some are finer than others. Arcane Casters like the Magus, who spend half their time honing other skills, settle on the [single-piece house] equasions, which meet the same goal and are a little easier to utilize, while the truly committed, like the Wizard push themselves to utilize the [house from dozens of smaller Lego blocks] equations, which require more concentration and control. The most powerful of spells can only be unlocked with [house from dozens of smaller Lego blocks] equations, which is why Magus' and Bards can't cast spells over 6th level.
Then why can't the magus/wizard multiclass character use the "simpler" version of magic missile in both slots, since he obviously knows how? You didn't actually answer the question.
And that's to say nothing of why a single-classed wizard isn't capable of using the prefab versions of his 1st-6th level spells so that he only has to worry about spell failure on his 7th-9th level spells.
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Then why can't the magus/wizard multiclass character use the "simpler" version of magic missile in both slots, since he obviously knows how? You didn't actually answer the question.
That's a great question. However, this has to do with how the class system itself is constructed, not Cuup's 'Theory of General Magic'*. Figuring out a way to blend the two spell lists together instead of keeping them separate is something we could do in a realistic setting, rather than one ruled by game mechanics.
Though 'simplier' might be a poor word choice. I'd call the version of magic missile to be a more 'rigid' version. The wizard's version follows the 'pattern' of the spell more fluidly and has less resistance against the 'flow' to cast. The magus version is more 'cookie-cutter' and 'one-size-fits-all' than the wizards and takes more effort to make it work.
And that's to say nothing of why a single-classed wizard isn't capable of using the prefab versions of his 1st-6th level spells so that he only has to worry about spell failure on his 7th-9th level spells.
I'd tell you to think of it this way. A Magus only has 6th level spells because his 'dedication' to the Arcane arts is lacking. He only has the capacity for 6th level magic because his 'short cutting' of the spellcasting system to allow him to ignore spell failure in armor blinds him to the intricate details of wielding magics of 7th level or higher. That or the difficulty of casting spells when ignoring the arcane failure chance (forcing it, in another word) is too much for him to continue.
Overall, I like Cuup's 'Theory of Magic'. I've thought along similar lines but he's put a good bit of thought into it.
Or why they are important at all,... since you can obviously remove ALL components except expensive materials from spells...
Or why bard HAVE to have Verbal Components...
Or why they are important at all,... since you can obviously remove ALL components except expensive materials from spells...
Or why bard HAVE to have Verbal Components...
They are important because using them makes the spells 'easier' to cast. Eliminating them usually takes additional magic, feats and/or higher spell slots to cast. Ie, the more you 'force it', the harder you have to work to accomplish it.
As to why Bards have to have verbal components? They use sounds to tap into their own special brand of magic. It is their 'link' to their spellcasting. You take that away and they no longer have access to their source of power. Sure, its a flavor thing but so is everything else.
@Cuup: Two things.
1) What about Alchemy? How does that fit into your view of how magic works? Also, what about occult rituals?
2) Is your choice of name and avatar in any way inspired by Coop of Megas XLR?
I've come to understand from Occult Adventures that psychic magic too draws power from external sources, I don't remember which one between the Ethereal Plane and the Astral Plane
There is no reason that each type of caster could not have their own way of tapping into the power of the universe. Each tradition taps into the energy in completely different ways. The best analogy I can think of is how electronic devices require different power adapters to function. The magus 1/ wizard cannot use spells in armor because the power he is drawing on to cast as a wizard is different than that the magus. Just like an android and an iphone require different charges so do the spells. The multiclass character is like the person who carries both. Just like you can’t use a android app on the iphone, he can’t use a wizard slot to cast like a magus.
There is no reason that each type of caster could not have their own way of tapping into the power of the universe. Each tradition taps into the energy in completely different ways. The best analogy I can think of is how electronic devices require different power adapters to function. The magus 1/ wizard cannot use spells in armor because the power he is drawing on to cast as a wizard is different than that the magus. Just like an android and an iphone require different charges so do the spells. The multiclass character is like the person who carries both. Just like you can’t use a android app on the iphone, he can’t use a wizard slot to cast like a magus.
Technically the character can have a single spellbook and prepare, say, Shocking Grasp for either magus and wizard from the same page
Oh boy, I love this kind of thing. I've done plenty of thinking about it before.
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There is no reason that each type of caster could not have their own way of tapping into the power of the universe. Each tradition taps into the energy in completely different ways. The best analogy I can think of is how electronic devices require different power adapters to function. The magus 1/ wizard cannot use spells in armor because the power he is drawing on to cast as a wizard is different than that the magus. Just like an android and an iphone require different charges so do the spells. The multiclass character is like the person who carries both. Just like you can’t use a android app on the iphone, he can’t use a wizard slot to cast like a magus.Technically the character can have a single spellbook and prepare, say, Shocking Grasp for either magus and wizard from the same page
I can also have a single license for a software program that allows me to run it on my windows desktop, my Macintosh laptop and even my android phone. That does not mean I can use my desktop while I am traveling. It still has to be plugged and would be a pain to try and carry with me. , but I carry my phone with me. If I want to use the application while walking to the store the phone is really the only way I can use it. Each devices has advantages and disadvantages. The desktop has the largest screen and the most power. The laptop sacrificed some screen size and power for portability. The screen on the phone is even smaller and it has less power, but is it can connect to the internet almost anywhere. Each device(class) has its own limitations even though they often do the same thing.
Each device(class) has its own limitations even though they often do the same thing.
This gives me a nifty idea for a future-tech game :)
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Then why can't the magus/wizard multiclass character use the "simpler" version of magic missile in both slots, since he obviously knows how?@Cuup: Jiggy was referring to the fact that the Magus1/Wizard1 was the same character, using a Wizard spell slot to prepare Magic Missile (this one being interfered with by armor) and a Magus spell slot to prepare Magic Missile. Why does that same character need to take off his armor for one but not the other?I see. In order to answer that, we need to get simple. Lego-simple. You could build a simple house from a dozen or so Legos, or you could use one big, solid, pre-made piece. Both make a house, yet one is much sturdier (the single piece) than the other, but the other (a dozen or so individual pieces) has much more potential - it can be a house, or you could reassemble its pieces to become but a tiny part of a castle. There are multitudes of formulaic expressions of the same spell permeating the universe, and some are finer than others. Arcane Casters like the Magus, who spend half their time honing other skills, settle on the [single-piece house] equasions, which meet the same goal and are a little easier to utilize, while the truly committed, like the Wizard push themselves to utilize the [house from dozens of smaller Lego blocks] equations, which require more concentration and control. The most powerful of spells can only be unlocked with [house from dozens of smaller Lego blocks] equations, which is why Magus' and Bards can't cast spells over 6th level.
Well obviously...I mean, clearly...Arcane Magic is fickle, and...um...COLOR-SPRAY-DISTRACTION!
@Tectorman: Things like potions, scrolls, etc. are definitely a whole new beast, especially considering a potion of say Detect Magic can be made by an Arcane Caster, a Divine Caster, or a Psychic Caster. I'll admit ignorance in not having put much thought into these in relation to how I've defined Magic above...
And no, sorry, I've never watched Megas XLR. Cuup's an alias I've been using for longer than I can remember. I think it was just a spontaneous invention among my friends and me. I picked this avatar because, well, it chose me, really.
@Entryhazard: You are correct, I think it might even be both the Ethereal and Astral Plane, based on which class you're using. Kazaan gave a great explanation, though, to why that source could still in an indirect way be "you".
There is no reason that each type of caster could not have their own way of tapping into the power of the universe. Each tradition taps into the energy in completely different ways. The best analogy I can think of is how electronic devices require different power adapters to function. The magus 1/ wizard cannot use spells in armor because the power he is drawing on to cast as a wizard is different than that the magus. Just like an android and an iphone require different charges so do the spells. The multiclass character is like the person who carries both. Just like you can’t use a android app on the iphone, he can’t use a wizard slot to cast like a magus.You want to play a game like that use a rules light syste like Mage.
Trying to model that in a wargame like Pathfinder/d20 where everyone expects exact mechanics for activities such as tieing shoelaces is asking for a migraine.
I don't see anything headache inducing in Mysterious Stranger's post. Makes sense to me.
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I think LazarX does not understand the purpose of this thread, or my post. He seems to think that we are talking about altering the rules. That is not the purpose of this thread, or at least not the way I see it. The purpose of the thread is more about fluff than game mechanics. No one suggested making any changes to the rules, especially me.
What this thread is about to me is a discussion on how magic works not in terms of game mechanics, but rather from the perspective of the actual characters. From a game mechanics point the reason I can cast spells is my class is a spell caster. That is fine for a player but the charter is going to look at it differently.
The fact of the matter is that game mechanics actually support my view more than LazarX’s. Each caster class actually does use a different set of rules. The post I was responding to was questioning why a magus/wizard cannot use magic missile in armor with his wizard spells. If all casters had the same mechanics for spells this would actually be a sound argument. But all casters do not use the same mechanics when casting spells. Each one has separate rules on how they cast.
Even a wizard and a sorcerer have completely different methods. The wizard for one thing is an INT based prepared caster. The way I see it the wizard is carefully following a precise formula that he has to cram for in order to fully understand. He is probably drawing the power to cast the spell while he is memorizing it. Since he has to have a material component he may use the material component to store the energy of the spell. When he finally cast the spell he pulls out the sand and probably throws it towards the targets.
The sorcerer on the other hand is a CHA based spontaneous caster. All he needs to do to regain his spells is to rest for 8 hours and spend 15 minutes to gather his power and he is done. He requires no book and spends considerably less time focusing than the wizard. When he does cast the spell he simply focuser his will and releases the energy. He does not need to worry about sand, or rose petals or having a live cricket. He probably does some sort of gesture, but it is not throw sand and each sorcerer could have different gestures.
Two characters casting the same spell, but each of them does it in a completely different way. This is the way the current rules system work.
With respect to the Magus/Wizard question: If you make the Magus and Wizard alternate classes of each other, problem solved.
With respect to all Bards needing sound, presumably this has to do with their magic requiring artistic expression. But still, we need a Mime Bard archetype.
I think LazarX does not understand the purpose of this thread, or my post. He seems to think that we are talking about altering the rules. That is not the purpose of this thread, or at least not the way I see it. The purpose of the thread is more about fluff than game mechanics. No one suggested making any changes to the rules, especially me.
What this thread is about to me is a discussion on how magic works not in terms of game mechanics, but rather from the perspective of the actual characters. From a game mechanics point the reason I can cast spells is my class is a spell caster. That is fine for a player but the charter is going to look at it differently.
The fact of the matter is that game mechanics actually support my view more than LazarX’s. Each caster class actually does use a different set of rules. The post I was responding to was questioning why a magus/wizard cannot use magic missile in armor with his wizard spells. If all casters had the same mechanics for spells this would actually be a sound argument. But all casters do not use the same mechanics when casting spells. Each one has separate rules on how they cast.
Even a wizard and a sorcerer have completely different methods. The wizard for one thing is an INT based prepared caster. The way I see it the wizard is carefully following a precise formula that he has to cram for in order to fully understand. He is probably drawing the power to cast the spell while he is memorizing it. Since he has to have a material component he may use the material component to store the energy of the spell. When he finally cast the spell he pulls out the sand and probably throws it towards the targets.
The sorcerer on the other hand is a CHA based spontaneous caster. All he needs to do to regain his spells is to rest for 8 hours and spend 15 minutes to gather his power and he is done. He requires no book and spends considerably less time focusing than the wizard. When he does cast the spell he simply focuser his will and releases the energy. He does not need to worry about sand, or rose petals or having a live cricket. He probably does some sort of gesture, but it is not throw sand and each sorcerer could have different gestures.
Two characters casting the same spell, but each of them does it in a completely different way. This is the way the current rules system work.
That's a great way to look at varying classes of similar divisions of magic. An int-based caster (Wizard) is going to cast spells differently than a cha-based caster (Sorcerer) of the same branch of magic, and a prepared caster (Warpriest) will cast differently than a spontaneous caster (Inquisitor) of the same ability-based casting. Keeping that in mind, it must surely be two very different displays to watch a Sorcerer cast Magic Weapon next to a Cleric casting the same spell.
This is a bit of a hole in your idea. Consider a magus1/wizard1. He has magic missile prepared in a magus slot and in a wizard slot. The spells are the same: the same incantation, the same gestures, the same Spellcraft DC to identify them being cast, they're both arcane, they're both cast by the same person, and so forth.
But one of them is interfered with by armor while the other is not.
Good luck with that. ;)
Don't forget that ANY arcane user CAN use magic while wearing armor: Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Armor Mastery.
The difference between the Wizard and the Magus is: The Wizard focuses exclusively on understanding and using magic in it's highest forms. The Magus is a student of both magic and mundane warfare. That study of mundane warfare allows the Magus to practice his craft while wearing armor, but at the cost of higher levels of magic use. The Wizard's exclusive study allows for the highest levels of magic use, but leave no room to learn anything else. However, some Wizards may choose to spend the rare free time they have learning to use magic while armored, or while using a longsword, that is what the feats above represent.
With respect to all Bards needing sound, presumably this has to do with their magic requiring artistic expression. But still, we need a Mime Bard archetype.
I think of Bards as a kind of arcane magic "hacker." They are not Sorcerers (programmed to use Magic), nor are they like Wizards (lifetimes of study to perfect the art). They, IMO, are more like a naturally occurring "glitch in the matrix;" they are a phenomenon that exist because magic exists, a hacker of sorts.
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Oh actually bards can get quite thematic now that I think about it...
I was just thinking about Superstring Theory when it kinda struck me. Based upon Superstring Theory, all things in the universe (matter, energy, the universe itself....) are made of super tiny 10 (or 11... depends on who you ask) dimensional strings. The different Quarks and subatomic particles are actually the same strings vibrating at different frequencies and wave patterns. Different "notes" of you will. These "notes" come together to form everything we see and know. They form a sort of "Symphony of Creation" if you will.
With that in mind, you can imagine a Bard essentially not just playing the notes of a song or speech, but essentially intonating in such a way as to alter these very super strings, altering reality at its more fundamental level. This creates the effects we see in their spells and abilities, which is why everything requires Vocal components.
But hey, that's just a theory.... a game theor... oh wait... wrong site xD
Fun read! One issue, though:
Arcane Magic
.... While Arcane Magic itself isn’t bound by rules of reality, those who wield it must observe strict limitations, like speaking words of power and following strict physical gestures, which unlock specific cracks in reality and alter it in a specific way. Deviating from these rules results in failure. For most casters of Arcane Magic, restrictive movement from wearing armor can be enough to cause a simple spell to fail.This is a bit of a hole in your idea. Consider a magus1/wizard1. He has magic missile prepared in a magus slot and in a wizard slot. The spells are the same: the same incantation, the same gestures, the same Spellcraft DC to identify them being cast, they're both arcane, they're both cast by the same person, and so forth.
But one of them is interfered with by armor while the other is not.
Good luck with that. ;)
I would posit that even arcane magic must conform to some set of rules, however inscrutable.
I mean...the literal definition of the word arcane is: "mysterious; understood by few" not "arbitrary; understood by no one".
String Theory stuff
This is precisely how I see Bards (and Skalds, don't forget them) as accessing magic. Changing the harmonics of the universe :D
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This is a bit of a hole in your idea. Consider a magus1/wizard1. He has magic missile prepared in a magus slot and in a wizard slot. The spells are the same: the same incantation, the same gestures, the same Spellcraft DC to identify them being cast, they're both arcane, they're both cast by the same person, and so forth.
But one of them is interfered with by armor while the other is not.
Good luck with that. ;)
Don't forget that ANY arcane user CAN use magic while wearing armor: Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Armor Mastery.
The difference between the Wizard and the Magus is: The Wizard focuses exclusively on understanding and using magic in it's highest forms. The Magus is a student of both magic and mundane warfare. That study of mundane warfare allows the Magus to practice his craft while wearing armor, but at the cost of higher levels of magic use. The Wizard's exclusive study allows for the highest levels of magic use, but leave no room to learn anything else. However, some Wizards may choose to spend the rare free time they have learning to use magic while armored, or while using a longsword, that is what the feats above represent.
You obviously didn't read my post.
I'm talking about when the magus and the wizard are the same person.
A single, individual person can cast the exact same spell twice in a row, yet one casting of the spell is hindered by armor while the other is not. Ted the Terrible Multiclasser puts on his armor and goes adventuring, gets into a fight. Round 1, Ted casts magic missile out of a magus slot with no issues. Round 2, Ted casts magic missile out of a wizard slot, and has to roll for spell failure. Same person, same spell, different results.
Your post fails to address this issue. (I did like the OP's counterpoint, though.)
Fun read! One issue, though:
Arcane Magic
.... While Arcane Magic itself isn’t bound by rules of reality, those who wield it must observe strict limitations, like speaking words of power and following strict physical gestures, which unlock specific cracks in reality and alter it in a specific way. Deviating from these rules results in failure. For most casters of Arcane Magic, restrictive movement from wearing armor can be enough to cause a simple spell to fail.This is a bit of a hole in your idea. Consider a magus1/wizard1. He has magic missile prepared in a magus slot and in a wizard slot. The spells are the same: the same incantation, the same gestures, the same Spellcraft DC to identify them being cast, they're both arcane, they're both cast by the same person, and so forth.
But one of them is interfered with by armor while the other is not.
Good luck with that. ;)
I'd say that the arcane spell failure chance bestowed by armor has absolutely nothing to do with higher metaphysics of magic, and is a much more mundane issue of the training process involved with teaching how to correctly perform mudras (i.e. somatic components) with more martially minded traditions of arcane magic (bards, bloodragers, and magi) being better trained at muscle memory required at the expense of further capability to master more complex patterns.
A single, individual person can cast the exact same spell twice in a row, yet one casting of the spell is hindered by armor while the other is not. Ted the Terrible Multiclasser puts on his armor and goes adventuring, gets into a fight. Round 1, Ted casts magic missile out of a magus slot with no issues. Round 2, Ted casts magic missile out of a wizard slot, and has to roll for spell failure. Same person, same spell, different results.
The wizard/magus is trained in both, but each class involves unlocking its own set of magic capabilities (caster level and spell slots) and each set is accessible via different training (otherwise the spell slots would stack like in 5th edition) so he can't use the better casting rules for both nor is he limited to using worst casting rules for both sets.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The wizard/magus is trained in both, but each class involves unlocking its own set of magic capabilities (caster level and spell slots) and each set is accessible via different training (otherwise the spell slots would stack like in 5th edition) so he can't use the better casting rules for both nor is he limited to using worst casting rules for both sets.
That is a description of how things are, not an explanation of why (and, therefore, also not a response to the post you quoted).
The wizard/magus is trained in both, but each class involves unlocking its own set of magic capabilities (caster level and spell slots) and each set is accessible via different training (otherwise the spell slots would stack like in 5th edition) so he can't use the better casting rules for both nor is he limited to using worst casting rules for both sets.That is a description of how things are, not an explanation of why (and, therefore, also not a response to the post you quoted).
This is exactly (one of a possible) explanation why: you developed a set of magic abilities A via training and initiation process alpha and set of magic abilities B via training and initiation beta so you get to use A with restrictions of alpha and set B with restrictions of beta and because of this your restrictions beta do not apply to spells from the set A.
{. . .}
The wizard/magus is trained in both, but each class involves unlocking its own set of magic capabilities (caster level and spell slots) and each set is accessible via different training (otherwise the spell slots would stack like in 5th edition) so he can't use the better casting rules for both nor is he limited to using worst casting rules for both sets.
How is this supposed to work? (I don't think the free introductory 5th Edition PDF covered it -- not surprising since it was a free introductory PDF.) I wonder if this would be workable to import into Pathfinder? I DO remember that limitations on casting in armor in 5th Edition had only to do with armor proficiency, so that would give Ted the Terrible Multiclasser the benefit of the better armor casting in this case.
{. . .}
The wizard/magus is trained in both, but each class involves unlocking its own set of magic capabilities (caster level and spell slots) and each set is accessible via different training (otherwise the spell slots would stack like in 5th edition) so he can't use the better casting rules for both nor is he limited to using worst casting rules for both sets.How is this supposed to work? (I don't think the free introductory 5th Edition PDF covered it -- not surprising since it was a free introductory PDF.) I wonder if this would be workable to import into Pathfinder? I DO remember that limitations on casting in armor in 5th Edition had only to do with armor proficiency, so that would give Ted the Terrible Multiclasser the benefit of the better armor casting in this case.
There is only one spell slot chart. Fullcasters progress down it at normal speed. Pallys and ranger half speed. Arcane tricksters and eldritch knights at one third speed rounded up. Multiclass characters just add their progression to the chart (eldritch knights and arcane trickster level count as only one third). Spells known are still tied to actual class levels. So a wizard 10/cleric 10 knows 5th level spells but still has a 9th level slot. Many spells can be cast at higher slots for added effect.
There is no CL and DCs don't depend on spell level.
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This is a bit of a hole in your idea. Consider a magus1/wizard1. He has magic missile prepared in a magus slot and in a wizard slot. The spells are the same: the same incantation, the same gestures, the same Spellcraft DC to identify them being cast, they're both arcane, they're both cast by the same person, and so forth.
But one of them is interfered with by armor while the other is not.
Good luck with that. ;)
Don't forget that ANY arcane user CAN use magic while wearing armor: Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Armor Mastery.
The difference between the Wizard and the Magus is: The Wizard focuses exclusively on understanding and using magic in it's highest forms. The Magus is a student of both magic and mundane warfare. That study of mundane warfare allows the Magus to practice his craft while wearing armor, but at the cost of higher levels of magic use. The Wizard's exclusive study allows for the highest levels of magic use, but leave no room to learn anything else. However, some Wizards may choose to spend the rare free time they have learning to use magic while armored, or while using a longsword, that is what the feats above represent.
You obviously didn't read my post.
I'm talking about when the magus and the wizard are the same person.
Yeah, I guess I missed that part. Oddly enough, my answer to your point would not be much different from my original post. You're poit (on a very basic level) is: A magic missile is a magic missile no matter who's casting it. That is simply not true. Especially if you think of magic as an organic phenomenon. (For the purposes of this thread. Obviously they are the same if we're talking raw mechanics; at which point the why is: because the designers said so.)
If we think of magic as an organic system then learning to use it is very similar to learning to fight. You could say, "a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick," but that is not really true. There is a lot more than just throwing your fist or leg out there, and every martial art does it differently. Sometimes those differences are very subtle, other times they are very noticeable; either way the difference are huge. Every martial art teaches the practitioners how to generate power using various techniques and they are different from the basics up. You can't ask a guy who practices Taekwon-Do to throw a Muay Thai kick. Nor would a Muay Thai fighter be able to throw a TKD kick. (Or they might be able to throw something that looks like it, but won't carry much power.) Both are just kicks right? Not really. Completely different methods of generating power, completely different ways of moving, even completely different methods of incorporating your body weight into the technique. Now, you take a guy who has done one of those martial arts for 10+ years and throw him in a class for the other style and he will quite possibly look worse than a 16 year old stepping into martial arts for the first time ever. In fact it will probably be harder for the guy who's practiced another style for 10 years to learn the new style. But let's say someone did spend dedicated time learning two different styles (I'm not talking about these commercialized "MMA styles," mind you). You still can't throw a Muay Thai kick using TKD style, or a TKD kick using Muay Thai style, the two are fundamentally different and a practitioner of both will have had to spend a great deal of time teaching his body and mind to move and think in two very different ways.
Even a guy who has learned two very similar styles (say Karate and TKD, which even have some common history and themes) would have very noticeable differences when using techniques from different styles. Although, you would have to be very familiar with what you are looking at to tell the difference.
Now apply a similar concept to an organic magic system. The Wizard and Magus practice similar styles of magic, but not the same. The character who has learned both styles, trained both his body and his mind to cast spells in two completely different ways. Because: A spell is not just a spell; any more than a kick is just a kick.
Even if you think of magic as a logic system the end product can be the same. Think of two different computer programmers given the exact same task. Both using the same programming language. Do you think they will write every single line of code in exactly the same way? Probably not. Even if the same guy wrote a program, then was told to write another program that did the exact same thing (but he had to start from scratch and write the whole thing new) it would probably not be exactly the same. It would have different sets of potential glitches, might have a different interface, it might even have slightly different restrictions.
...
Really, even two different Wizards don't cast Magic Missile the same. They cast the same spell, but not in exactly the same way:
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in his own way. Another person's magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.
There is only one spell slot chart. Fullcasters progress down it at normal speed. Pallys and ranger half speed. Arcane tricksters and eldritch knights at one third speed rounded up. Multiclass characters just add their progression to the chart (eldritch knights and arcane trickster level count as only one third). {. . .} Many spells can be cast at higher slots for added effect.
There is no CL and DCs don't depend on spell level.
Interesting -- I was thinking of something related to (not exactly the same as), to (among other things) rework prestige classes to work properly with base classes that have different speed spellcasting progression, plus I always thought it weird that spell save DC depends upon spell level but has NO dependence upon caster level.
The difference between the Wizard and the Magus is: The Wizard focuses exclusively on understanding and using magic in it's highest forms. The Magus is a student of both magic and mundane warfare. That study of mundane warfare allows the Magus to practice his craft while wearing armor, but at the cost of higher levels of magic use. The Wizard's exclusive study allows for the highest levels of magic use, but leave no room to learn anything else. However, some Wizards may choose to spend the rare free time they have learning to use magic while armored, or while using a longsword, that is what the feats above represent.Casting while wearing armor isn't that big a deal. An Eldritch Knight trains at that sort of thing as a split personality wizard and warrior, or an elven mage uses his people's skills to be somewhat competent at sword and bow. Even a straight human wizard who puts in the effort can manage that to a degree.
The real big thing of the Magus is the marriage of melee and magic in his unique arts of spellstrike and spellcombat. along with his special arcana.
Right. The point was, and is, they are different styles of learning and using magic; they have different focuses. The Wizard's focus (by class) is purely on magic. The Magus' focus (by class) combines a study of magic with a study of martial warfare. The Magus loses out on high level spells but gains his martial capabilities. The Wizard gets the spells but has to go out of his way to learn how to use martial weapons or armor, and he will still never be as good as the Magus at it (via the Wizard class). Just as the Magus will never be able to cast 9th level spells (via the Magus class).
Also, Eldritch Knights can't cast in armor without a spell failure chance either, without the feats I linked above. I can't tell from your post if you meant they could or not.
i want t read this but i have a migraine right now :c
This is a bit of a hole in your idea. Consider a magus1/wizard1. He has magic missile prepared in a magus slot and in a wizard slot. The spells are the same: the same incantation, the same gestures, the same Spellcraft DC to identify them being cast, they're both arcane, they're both cast by the same person, and so forth.
But one of them is interfered with by armor while the other is not.
Good luck with that. ;)
Don't forget that ANY arcane user CAN use magic while wearing armor: Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Armor Mastery.
The difference between the Wizard and the Magus is: The Wizard focuses exclusively on understanding and using magic in it's highest forms. The Magus is a student of both magic and mundane warfare. That study of mundane warfare allows the Magus to practice his craft while wearing armor, but at the cost of higher levels of magic use. The Wizard's exclusive study allows for the highest levels of magic use, but leave no room to learn anything else. However, some Wizards may choose to spend the rare free time they have learning to use magic while armored, or while using a longsword, that is what the feats above represent.
You obviously didn't read my post.
I'm talking about when the magus and the wizard are the same person.
Yeah, I guess I missed that part. Oddly enough, my answer to your point would not be much different from my original post. You're poit (on a very basic level) is: A magic missile is a magic missile no matter who's casting it. That is simply not true. Especially if you think of magic as an organic phenomenon. (For the purposes of this thread. Obviously they are the same if we're talking raw mechanics; at which point the why is: because the designers said so.)
If we think of magic as an organic system then learning to use it is very similar to learning to fight. You could say, "a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick," but that is not really true. There is a lot more than just throwing your fist or leg out there, and every martial art does it differently. Sometimes those differences are very subtle, other times they are very noticeable; either way the difference are huge. Every martial art teaches the practitioners how to generate power using various techniques and they are different from the basics up. You can't ask a guy who practices Taekwon-Do to throw a Muay Thai kick. Nor would a Muay Thai fighter be able to throw a TKD kick. (Or they might be able to throw something that looks like it, but won't carry much power.) Both are just kicks right? Not really. Completely different methods of generating power, completely different ways of moving, even completely different methods of incorporating your body weight into the technique. Now, you take a guy who has done one of those martial arts for 10+ years and throw him in a class for the other style and he will quite possibly look worse than a 16 year old stepping into martial arts for the first time ever. In fact it will probably be harder for the guy who's practiced another style for 10 years to learn the new style. But let's say someone did spend dedicated time learning two different styles (I'm not talking about these commercialized "MMA styles," mind you). You still can't throw a Muay Thai kick using TKD style, or a TKD kick using Muay Thai style, the two are fundamentally different and a practitioner of both will have had to spend a great deal of time teaching his body and mind to move and think in two very different ways.
Even a guy who has learned two very similar styles (say Karate and TKD, which even have some common history and themes) would have very noticeable differences when using techniques from different styles. Although, you would have to be very familiar with what you are looking at to tell the difference.
Now apply a similar concept to an organic magic system. The Wizard and Magus practice similar styles of magic, but not the same. The character who has learned both styles, trained both his body and his mind to cast spells in two completely different ways. Because: A spell is not just a spell; any more than a kick is just a kick.
Even if you think of magic as a logic system the end product can be the same. Think of two different computer programmers given the exact same task. Both using the same programming language. Do you think they will write every single line of code in exactly the same way? Probably not. Even if the same guy wrote a program, then was told to write another program that did the exact same thing (but he had to start from scratch and write the whole thing new) it would probably not be exactly the same. It would have different sets of potential glitches, might have a different interface, it might even have slightly different restrictions.
You're still not quite getting Jiggy's point. Imagine sitting before two pianos in a cold room and wearing winter gloves. You wish to play Flight of the Bumblebee. One piano has the entire song programmed into one key, and you need only hold it down for the duration of the song. The other piano requires you to play every note yourself. Your winter gloves will surely be a problem here. The point is, you have two methods of playing the song, but one requires you to remove your winter gloves and freeze your hands. Sure, practicing the right way will ultimately lead you down a more musically talented path, but in the moment, where a man is pointing a gun at you and saying "I want to hear Flight of the Bumblebee - twice - I don't care how," when would you ever try playing the manual piano with those winter gloves on?
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The wizard/magus is trained in both, but each class involves unlocking its own set of magic capabilities (caster level and spell slots) and each set is accessible via different training (otherwise the spell slots would stack like in 5th edition) so he can't use the better casting rules for both nor is he limited to using worst casting rules for both sets.That is a description of how things are, not an explanation of why (and, therefore, also not a response to the post you quoted).
Probably the same reason Aerith couldn't be revived with a Phoenix Down
The "why" of all things, as in real life, is either "because chaos stabilized in that way to that degree" or "because some greater being chose so".