Pedantic Pundit, The's page

32 posts. Alias of Dreaming Psion.


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Trotting out the (un)dead horse so it may be thorough beaten again: All of these discussions of alignment and ethics tend to conflate real life good and evil with the in-game tags of "Good" and "Evil". Real world ethics/morality doesn't need to match up with in game ethics/morality. In a world where the powers of Good endorsing (or at least not objecting to) feudalism (with serfdom having been defined as a form of slavery IRL by the United Nations 1956 Supplementary Convention on the Abolition of Slavery), we obviously see a different context of what Good and Evil are in the fantasy game world.

As alignment exists as a descriptive term and to justify/operationalize Red vs. Blue interactions in PF, moral issues like conscription are mostly setting dependent questions.

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Other Missing Gear
Burnt Offerings
C5 p. 43
x12 wooden stakes (no value)
C 17 p.47-48
Shadowmist (heavy warhorse)
C 19
x1Wand of Silent Image (5 charges) – warchanter p. 49
Thistletop Dungeon
D4 c. p. 55
x1 everburning torch
D5 p. 55
hanging lantern (from boxed text)
D8 p. 56
+1 Small hide armor
Small masterwork shortbow
D9 p.56
Spiked Cage (assuming Small or Medium, sell for 7.5 gp, if we assume the spikes could be priced as armor spikes, that sells for another 25 gp) and chain (sell for 15 gp) the cage hangs on
E3 p. 61
x2 glaives (from trap)
E4 p. 64
x4 everburning skulls (could be sold as everburning torches. If we’re assuming the sail of Lamashtan unholy water, symbols, etc. this shouldn’t be a problem)

The Skinsaw Murders
Part 1: Murder Most Foul
1x handaxe (the bloody one from the investigation p. 74)
Part IV: Misgivings
B23 p.100 two vials (sell for 5 silver pieces each)
B29 x3 bird cages used to hold rats in boxed text. Assuming each cage is big enough to hold a rat, that's a Tiny cage, which could sell for 1 gp each (UE lists normal purchase price as 2 gp each)

Hook Mountain Massacre
Part 1
Graul House
A3 3 scythes (from trap) p. 136
A9 War razor (from trap) p. 138
part 4
Price for a masterwork musical instrument is 100 gold pieces, so assuming the harpsichord is mw, it would sell for 50 gp
Part 5
D7 p. 178
Cauldron described in flavor text (sells for 5 silver according to Ultimate Equipment)

Fortress of the stone giants
Part 1
Scarnetti Manor p. 192
Wagon (we might assume "heavy" since it's described as a "large" wagon, so this could be sold for 50 gp deriving from its 100 gp price in UE)
teakwood desk inlaid with silver and gold (worth 600 gp)
Part 2
Ogre cattle rustlers p.195 (gear of 3 ogre fighters)
Part 3
A1 p. 199
Cinderma's gear(as Taiga giant)
A14 p. 209
Scrolls are all CL 17 and should be priced accordingly
Part 4
B7b p. 216
5 scythes and 5 small leather armors (p. 216), not 3
B 13
Masterwork leather, not leather p. 220

Sins of the Saviors
Part 4 Crypts of the Ravenous
F6 p. 261
X1 alchemist’s lab (can sell for 100 gp)
Part 7
There are 6 simulacra, so all of their gear needs to be multiplied by 6
I3 p. 281
Vraxeris’ Journal (worth 15,000 gp)

Spires of Xin-Shalast
B 13 (p. 311)
X14 uncut gems (50 gp each)
Part 3
Are you leaving out Svenka’s gear because she is more or less potentially friendly?
Part 6
Room X9 p. 352
X3 scrolls of resurrection
X1 scroll of commune
Large platinum key (worth 2,500 gp)
Gold scrapings from wall (1,250 gp)

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It seems like part of the Hook Mountain massacre inventories must have gotten cut out in your post, as it's missing a swath of treasure.


2,000gp {I am assuming the party charms the socks off the mayor and boosts their gold gain}
1x Large Leather Armor [10gp]
2x Large Flail (8gp) [16gp]
4x Large Javelin (1gp) [4gp]
6x Pearl (100gp) [600gp]
1x Phylactery of Positive Channeling [5500gp]
1x Ivory and Jade Scroll Case [300gp]
1x Scroll of Cone of Cold [562gp 5sp]
1x Scroll of Hold Monster [562gp 5sp]
1x Scroll of Telekinesis [562gp 5sp]
1x Large +1 Hide Armor [590gp]
1x Large +1 Ogre Hook [1174gp]
10x Large Javelin (1gp) [10gp]
4x Large Hide Armor (15gp) [60gp]
4x Large Greatclub (5gp) [20gp]
1x Cracked Emerald [400gp]
1x Pearl Eyed Golden Comb Shaped Like a Behir [850gp]
1x Gloves of Swimming and Climbing [3125gp]
1x Large +1 Vicious Adamantine Trident [7015gp] {This may seem a bit pricy, but remember- one of the assumptions we accepted states that a weapon’s base and material costs double for every size category above medium.]
1x Pale Lavender Ellipsoid Ioun Stone 6 charges [1500gp]

All this stuff is from Part III.

For the number of ogres, 26 are normal ogres and 6 are the ogre fighters (according to p. 149), so take that into consideration regarding their gear. I’ve listed other treasure by area for confirmation below.
B4 p. 150
21 copper rings (10 gp) [210 gp]
Ring of Animal Friendship
B 13 p. 152
X24 longswords
X24 short swords
X24 daggers
X24 longbows
X6 +2 shocking burst arrows
B 14 p. 152
Prospector’s tools
2x garnets (100 gp) [200 gp]
+1 Small mithral short sword
B 29 (Jaagrath’s gear) p. 155
X2 potions of cure serious wounds
+1 Large hide armor
+1 Large human bane ogre hook
Belt of giant strength +2
B30 (Dorella’s gear) p. 156
X1 potion of cure serious wounds
Wand of acid arrow (43 charges)
Large amulet of natural armor +1
Large Headband of alluring charisma +2
Large ring of protection +1
(Room Treasure)
Books of the mire
X1 jewelry box (value not given)
X1 silver locket on chain with lock of hair (value not given)
B 31 p. 157
X3 buckets (can be sold for 2 sp and 5 cp each)
B 32 p. 157
Map of tunnels beneath Riddleport (50 gp to a smuggler)
Viperwall map (400 gp to interested party)
Map of Lurkwood’s paths (700 gp to interested explorers)
B36 p. 159 (Lucretia’s gear)
Wand of scorching ray (22 charges)
+1 keen dagger
X1 masterwork dagger
X1 star medallion
Gold and pearl ring (300 gp)
Silver necklace (200 gp)
Scroll of “favorite customers of Paradise”

An encounter on the approach Ft. Rannick (p. 132) yields the following:
+1 Large spear
Large belt of Giant Strength +2

This argument can be solved by one simple answer: Designer Command Theory and genre tropes. The designers of the PF game thought it was appropriate and in genre for all undead to be evil (save for a few examples, such as ghosts). Ultimately it doesn't matter what metaphysical/philsophical reasons for it as those are largely setting defined. In the game by default, it's EVIL because it's EEEEEEVIIILLLL!

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219. Have them all go into politics.

Serfdom has been mentioned before in this thread a few times, but I think it should be highlighted in a discussion because of its prevalence. Feudalism hinges upon it. Whereas you can enter bondage in return for protection, it's a social position passed on from generation to generation in perpetuity.

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Freehold DM wrote:

because one is private and relatively small scale.

The other is going throughout the setting, actively performing deeds that can damage not just the gods name but their church as a whole- spreading heresy, in essence.

In a world where the gods are indisputably real and active in the world to the point that they manifest in it regularly, that's not a good idea.

If a major church gets sacked and burned (or is part of an organized campaign against the god) and the god does nothing, then that makes the god look weak and ineffective. If it s a world where gods actively manifest, then that's even worse for the god because the god is permitting it to happen.

If the GM auto-smites any large scale threat to the faith, then hey we can't argue with that. However, it will mean a lot of changes for the setting. For example, rampaging monster armies with any intelligence will always leave churches alone, and therefore, holy ground will be effective safe zones, which will in turn affect how the world is built). The faith will also have no inquisitors, because the god deals with all the heresy/blasphemy such that it's not needed.

If the GM doesn't account for the above, then we're getting into questions of consistency.

Freehold DM wrote:
]IF they were doing it in the name of the good faith they are not a part of? Probably. If not then true agents of that faith are aware and they are at the top of the s@$% list.

How would that make a different? Somebody desecrating your altar and vandalizing your church is also blasphemy just as much as somebody who does it covertly. You're messing with the deity either way. And in this case we have the agents of the church warning the smote PC beforehand, so it's not a question if the agents not knowing and thus not being able to handle it themselves.

HWalsh wrote:

It dealt with the problem. The PLAYER knew it would cause the CHARACTER problems and chose to do it anyway. The CHARACTER was warned, once by a PC and again by an agent who showed up and told him, "Hey, the God you're claiming to be a Paladin of is tired of you lying, knock it off." After that? Fair game. At that point you're asking for it.

As to your assumption of what a "Good" God would do... You're simply wrong. Even the most goody good fluffy bunny Gods will bring the wrath for blasphemy *especially* after they sent a hand delivered message telling you, "Yo, not cool bro."

That you'd try...

My biggest question here would be about consistency. If an NPC did this, would you auto smite them?

And what about villain, monsters, etc. that sack and burn churches, desecrate holy ground, kill the servants of a faith, etc? Those are equal or worse crimes, so they should all be auto smote too, right?

Graeme Lewis wrote:

1029) "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good crossbow at your side" is not an old Rahadoumi proverb.

Yeah, everybody knows bows are better than crossbows!

Channel Positive Energy?

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:

....Donald Trump's hair!

Are you sure you don't mean William Shatner's hair?.?

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DominusMegadeus wrote:

The military model of Hell is the most efficient and powerful in all the multiverse. Why would you not emulate it if you were a Lawful person who wanted to succeed?

This seems like one of those "informed ability" things that's canon because people say it's true, even though it doesn't seem to make much sense. It's efficient even though infernal law is designed to be abused, underlings conspire against each other and even their master if they show weakness, enforcement is based upon fear and deception (which tend to weaken regimes in the long run if they are the foundations they're based upon)

Aelryinth wrote:

Racism implies that, for no reason whatsoever, the object of discrimination is considered lesser and inferior. It has nothing to do with reason, hatred or enmity...they are just 'lesser things' and treated accordingly. That is why it is Evil...it does not even have hatred or revenge backing it.

Actually, that is just one definition of racism. Racism (and prejudice in general) includes, on a more general level, the undue presumption of traits, behaviors, or characteristics to being intrinsically linked to race. Intentionally holding onto presumptuous views could be Evil because:

a) it provides motivation for unjust assumptions (and discrimination based on those assumptions) for the sake of convenience (basically, injustice for the sake of practicality, so this would fall under "sloth")

b) can be used to falsely condemn those who don't meet unjust assumptions based upon how they "should" function (this can happen even due to assumptions of "positive" stereotypes)-wrath

c)falls under the presumption that one is entitled to make those judgements in the first place- pride

d)legitimizes the robbery (greed) and murder (wrath) toward a given party based upon their heritage rather than their actions.

Now, D&D is a very different world (or worlds, given the variability of settings) from our own with a different morality (moralities) than what we are used to in the real world. (For example, it would be hard to justify the feudal system with its serfs and peasants as a just and/or Good society by modern standards.) Race is used much more determinedly than it is the real world (it's almost more like "species" or even state of spiritual existence)

Racial enmity is hard to separate from racism because it presumes that the target of the enmity will be hostile and/or evil. They're bad people because they're bad people- painting all with the same brush. However, the basic assumptions of Pathfinder (and D&D/fantasy in general) presumes that Good allows (and perhaps even assumes) certain injustices (example: a form of slavery in which peasants are bound to the land, or, more generally, a person's worth in society is defined by what social class they are born into). Therefore, if Good in terms of how the game world works can allow for some evils, then a certain amount of evil like racial enmity can still be evil while being allowed by Good. In other words, something can be tagged as Good as defined by the game world without meeting perfect criteria of how we define Good in the real world.


493. Relaxing in his villa (from which the "villain" term derives from)
Comic version: He condescendingly explains this connection

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Genre conventions, pure and simple. Divine, or Designer, Command Theory- the Good Gods say it's bad and therefore it's bad. The Bad Gods say it's good, and therefore it's bad.

It's easy to come up with all sorts of rationale why- preventing the soul from going on into the afterlife based on the fact you can't raise it, undead being a mockery of life, issues of consent for corpse usage, etc. but all of that is after the fact justifications for genre conventions. Golarion is built from a lot of genre and trope assumptions, a few of which are fundamental rules as far as the published material goes. The Pathfinder system and Golarion are almost indelibly linked, so the discussed assumptions of the latter will often sneak into the former.

A couple of things:

if there's a dragon manipulating things from behind the scenes, it wouldn't really be so different from any other AP that's out there. If you wanted to have it be Taldor/knight centered with a joust, etc. that's more like a chivalry centered AP rather than a dragon centered AP. Which is a perfectly awesome theme for an AP, but it's not a dragon AP.

Another thing about themes ran into the ground, by now, demons/devils/other evil outsiders have been run into the ground just as much or more than dragons have.

Now I'm not necessarily saying there SHOULD be a dragon AP, but there are those two things to take into consideration. Personally, I'm working on a dual-themed dragon/githyanki incursion campaign, which obviously is not possible with PF/Paizo with an AP. However, if Paizo could identify a dual threat, some kind of monster or evil race plausibly associated with dragons and numerous enough to constitute a threat, then that might work to have an AP with a heavy draconic influence.

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Atarlost wrote:
Pedantic Pundit, The wrote:
However, both require time and mental energy/focus. When one or both of those resources is not in sufficient quantity it can bring either optimization or roleplaying to be sacrificed for the other.
Energy and focus aren't really fungible. Optimization happens in non-table time while roleplaying happens during table time. Optimization is in resource tension with other leisure activities. Roleplaying is in tension with things like having to schedule late at night when everyone's tired because someone has to work weekends. You can't use non-table time to roleplay and the extent to which you can use table time to optimize is pretty much limited to zeroth sessions.

If you only have so much time to dedicate to a hobby, you will only have a certain amount of time to dedicate to that hobby. Roleplaying can require preparation just as mechanics can. A person may only have so much time to come up with a character concept, which entails both coming up with the mechanics and the qualitative characters like background and personality outside of the numbers. Conflict can extend beyond the first session when new characters are generated after character death, or if a person is struggling with developing his character mechanically vs. flavorwise. Conflict can also come when a GM wants to finds herself at odds with her players (or even her herself) on how much she wants to focus her time on designing the flavor details of the world vs. the mechanics necessary to challenge the players.

Mental energy and focus are reflected in that you can only juggle so many things in your head at a time (there is a limit on concentration). For example, some people will like to focus more on numbers and complex mechanical tactical interactions with combat, with the flavor description whereas some will enjoy more florid description with relatively less focus on getting the mechanics exactly straight. I've seen combat focus more often on one than some compromise in the middle.

Players and GMs will sometimes have to focus on playing a character's personality vs. playing a character's mechanics in session, with one or the other taking precedence. Optimization is meaningless without understanding it and using it in game. (Not to mention the many characters whom can reconfigure their abilities on a daily basis) Understanding your character psychologically can be hard, and understanding your character mechanically can also be hard. Optimized characters tend to be more versatile, as such they can require more mental energy to get everything straight. With a limited amount of executive function at any given time, it is understandable how a person might default to .

Clashes of focus can also be seen in what is highlighted as relevant. For example, the social interaction. Some people will prefer a balance of both. Others will prefer to place more importance on the die roll, and others will place more on what the players express to the GM that their characters are saying.

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In the generalizations below the corollary, the talk on the stormwind fallacy pretty much establishes thus:
"Doing one in a game does not necessarily preclude, nor necessarily infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game."

There is nothing that inherently makes roleplaying at odds with optimization, and they can often build upon each other. However, both require time and mental energy/focus. When one or both of those resources is not in sufficient quantity it can bring either optimization or roleplaying to be sacrificed for the other.

The trick then is to find the equilibrium of both optimization and roleplaying that works for a given group or individual. Mention of the Stormwind Fallacy can help start a conversation with people unfamiliar with its premise.

On the other hand, it's often an ineffective communication tool in cases of personal conflict where emotions are involved. This happens mostly because conversation around the Fallacy does not address specific cases of when desire for more optimization and the desire for more roleplaying do come into conflict. Yes, there is nothing inherently at odds between optimization and roleplaying without some outside factor. However, this does not prevent them from coming into conflict when other factors (such as lack of time and/or mental energy) are involved.

You have to be careful when mentioning the Stormwind Fallacy because often the problem isn't whether one is inherently at odds with the other, it's finding and addressing the third factor that is driving the two to compete (or the perception that they are competing.) At its best, talk of the Stormwind Fallacy is a conversation starter. At its worst, it is a conversation killer.

In short, optimization does not inherently prevent or imepede with roleplaying and vice versa. However, this does not preclude situations where the can conflict with each other.

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What I don't get is why they would want to emulate Hell and the devils as a perfect vision of order. Hell is a terrible perversion of justice, with entities trying to purposefully bend order for their own benefit more often than to uphold order at all cost. If they're into maintaining order, then emulating the inevitables and the other forces of Axis makes more sense.

LazarX wrote:

For the average person... deeds ARE proof. Healing the sick, raising the dead, getting answers from commune spells, or invoking the curse of a god... and having it take effect... that's proof to anyone but the extremely pedantic.

Logically, if we're going discussing effects as judged by the common man as proving the existence of gods, then, beyond godless clerics, any of the below could "prove" their existence without need of gods actually existing.

alchemists (healing the sick)
druids (commune with nature, curing the sick)
inquisitors (you can even be an inquisitor of a political regime!)
witches (can do all of the above things)
wizards (can bestow and remove curses, contact other plane)

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It is a well known fact that goblin babies provide three out of the four required ingredients for a balanced meal for growing trolls. So, knowing this you can...

206.Feed them to all those troll babies you're trying to save too.

Town Crier of Galt wrote:

"Fashion is fascism."--Abbie Hoffman

Vive le Galt!!!

So by this logic, revolution in Galt is fascism since revolution is very fashionable in Galt. Is that what you're saying, Mr. Counterrevolutionary?

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137ben wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
137ben wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
This question is kind of cheating
False-call: the "cheating" is only in presenting it as an either or. For the purpose of the thread - and the rules established herin - it's perfectly legit! ;P
Hence forth, I ban accusations that I have falsly accused anyone else of FOULs!


BANNED for reminding me of inappropriately named mutant turtles.

First of all, they don't act like ninjas at all! They follow a code of fair play that would make Bushido say it was stringent!

And what the HECK do they have to do with Italian Renaissance artists? (Pizza doesn't count, dagnabbit!)

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842. The Unliving and Necromancer's Guild bylines clearly state that undead are not allowed behaviors that constitute Good Alignment.*
*Ghosts have an exemption because they're such emotional crybabies.

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robert best 549 wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:

I ban inescapable game worlds like Ravenloft.

I ban reality in gaming, which is kinda the same thing.
I ban no magic settings, once again, kinda the same thing.
I thought there was at least one spelljammer there and that it can leave the setting.

NOPE! It's even in the FAQ! Give a hoot, read a BOOK! http://fraternityofshadows.com/FAQ/FAQ_Answers.html#caniuseaspelljammingves sel

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67. This sort of situation is what a Phylactery of Faithfulness is for. Duuuuhhhh!

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53) Roll to save vs. illusion and then disbelief the goblins out of existence. Because clearly, with their complete lack of disregard for their children, the goblins are an egg-laying species.

Doing more DAMAGE with rocks is not the only solution to making rock throwing more ferocious. Although it's OFTEN overlooked, it only takes a little Quick Draw to make many giants be able to throw more ROCKS in total.

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Message board troll wrote:
Lathiira wrote:
Upon review, I now ban alignment threads, summoner threads, rogue threads, monk threads, fighter threads, paladin threads, and wizard threads. If I don't see everyone shape up, I'm gonna have to ban threads in general.

Now see here, I say, now see here, good sir! *Sniffs and rubs nose derisively* Before you get going on a rampage here, just remember that there are still PRIVATE MESSAGES that you can do you tolling through.