No IT"S not within the rules of racial heritage. Racial heritage can not give you racial features that are not part of your base race. You don't get a kobold's tail, nor the kitusne power to change shape. The most that can be said is that you gain the feat but without the base powr that the feat modifies it has no effect.Point to me where the fox shape feat states that you need to have the kitsune's "change shape" ability to use the feat, or that it otherwise modifies the change shape ability.It's implicitly implied that you have to be a member of the race that has that power as it's standard feature.
Look, if you find a GM that lets you do this...FINE. I don't care two nickels. If you try to put this up on a PFS table that I run, I will not allow it. Nor will many PFS GMs. So unless you are in that scenario, you have nothing to worry about.
Um, as I have mentioned time and time again there is NO worry about this in PFS as it is EXPLICITLY ruled in PFS that one cannot use racial heritage to qualify for feats from the Advanced Race guide.
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Um, as I have mentioned time and time again there is NO worry about this in PFS as it is EXPLICITLY ruled in PFS that one cannot use racial heritage to qualify for feats from the Advanced Race guide.
Fox shape isn't in the advanced race guide, its out of the jade empires primer.
Fox shape isn't in the advanced race guide, its out of the jade empires primer.
Um, as I have mentioned time and time again there is NO worry about this in PFS as it is EXPLICITLY ruled in PFS that one cannot use racial heritage to qualify for feats from the Advanced Race guide.
As per the Additional Resource page on Dragon Empires Primer: Feats: kitsune feats on page 5 are legal for kitsune characters
This goes under the sane ruling as the ARG:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).
which is different then the ruling for the APG and UC.
(no restriction is place upon selection by race)
As per the Additional Resource page on Dragon Empires Primer: Feats: kitsune feats on page 5 are legal for kitsune charactersThis goes under the sane ruling as the ARG:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).which is different then the ruling for the APG and UC.
(no restriction is place upon selection by race)
Sweet! Solves that problem for me. Thank you.
Also, awesome typo/Freudian slip :)
I'm all for emergent gameplay, its what I love about the game: putting together disparate pieces and watching the crazy interactions. Its not about wracking up 9000 hit points of damage a round its about banking something off the corner off the 8 ball into the beer glass spill the beer glass start a fight and knock the ball into the corner. The combo isn't overpowered, isn't unthematic,
But I believe that the ability alters change shape, which a human doesn't have. As linked above, its not a conclusion i reached in response to this or to rain on this idea.
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But I believe that the ability alters change shape, which a human doesn't have. As linked above, its not a conclusion i reached in response to this or to rain on this idea.
At least admit you're basing this off an inconsequential piece of fluff that isn't either in the Prerequisites, Benefit, nor Special section of the Feat.
Also "forms" can be fulfilled by the true form of the character, that is Human in the hypothetical scenario
As per the Additional Resource page on Dragon Empires Primer: Feats: kitsune feats on page 5 are legal for kitsune charactersThis goes under the sane ruling as the ARG:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it (for example, only halflings can purchase and use solidsmoke pipeweed).which is different then the ruling for the APG and UC.
(no restriction is place upon selection by race)Sweet! Solves that problem for me. Thank you.
Also, awesome typo/Freudian slip :)
D'Oh, and now it's immortalized.
But yeah, I actually had this conversation with Brock IRL.
Coincidentally, at the time he said that having aesthetic changes due to Racial Heritage wasn't a big deal in PFS (the character in question wanted to be a fox-girl and took Racial Heritage(Kitsune) to have a fox tail and ears), but the mechanics stand as ruled. So in the end, Princess-Animal-Parts was greenlit by the boss, despite some VCs not agreeing with him on the aesthetics thing (but that's another can of worms in PFS)
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At least admit you're basing this off an inconsequential piece of fluff that isn't either in the Prerequisites, Benefit, nor Special section of the Feat.
When looking to assume the form of a fox you shouldn't discount the power of fluff....
As outlined above, that's not the only basis for it. Pretty much every sentence of the feat makes it sound like its working with change shape.
Also "forms" can be fulfilled by the true form of the character, that is Human in the hypothetical scenario
Its not about fulfilling a checklist of pre requisites. Its looking at the feat and saying "what does this do?" It seems to add fox to the list of forms you can assume rather than creating a brand new ability. It really doesn't matter all that much except in some weird corner cases, but this happens to be one of those.
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I would say that this falls squarely in the category of "Humans can't take feats with Racial Heritage that modify things they do not possess." A human with Racial Heritage (tiefling) can't take a feat that gives her a prehensile tail because humans don't have a prehensile tail. A human with Racial Heritage (kitsune) can't take fox shape because she doesn't have the change shape ability. This is supported by the flavor text to fox shape, which says, "in addition to your other forms."
What you do in a home game is your own business, but I'm almost positive that this use of Racial Heritage wouldn't fly at PFS. (Although its a pretty great way to get access to the kitsune trickster rogue archetype, if you want to add Int to all of your Charisma-based skill checks.)
Well, considering PFS has a standing rule that everything from the ARG is not allowed for any race other than the actual race the Kitsune trickster rogue archetype won't fly in PFS... However, the Fox Shape feat isn't in the ARG it's in the Dragon Empires Primer. So, by the rules of how Racial Heritage (Kitsune) works OUTSIDE OF THE ARG and since Fox Shape is not mentioned on the Additional Resources document, it SHOULD work in PFS at least as I understand it... should it? Probably not. Might be something the PFS VCs need to look into adding to the document, unless one of them chimes in and says that it's actually legal.
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I'm just going to note that there are more than one feat in the APG, where Racial Heritage appears, that do specify not just a race, but also a trait of that race. For instance, Improved Stonecunning has the prerequisites, "Wis 13, dwarf, stonecunning racial trait."
Fox Shape does not have that.
You can use Fox Shape if you are a human with Racial Heritage (kitsune).
You can even use Fox Shape if you are a kitsune who swapped out change shape for an alternate racial trait.
Fox shape is not in the ARG. its in the dragon empires primer, before the possibility of a non kitsune taking the ability or kitsune alternate race traits (or even race traits in general i think) were an option.
Really? I didn't know Dragon Empires Primer came out before the APG, which is where Racial Heritage is.
Also "racial traits" were introduced in D&D 3.0. RACE traits, something completely different that has nothing to do with the Fox Shape feat, were introduced in the APG.
So, by the rules of how Racial Heritage (Kitsune) works OUTSIDE OF THE ARG and since Fox Shape is not mentioned on the Additional Resources document, it SHOULD work in PFS at least as I understand it... should it? Probably not. Might be something the PFS VCs need to look into adding to the document, unless one of them chimes in and says that it's actually legal.
answered above: it definitely does not work for PFS because the dragon empires primer has a similar restriction
Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer
Archetypes: all archetypes on pages 22-23; Feats: kitsune feats on page 5 are legal for kitsune characters.
One of the great mistakes in rules interpretation is thinking that raw can only say one thing
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One of the great mistakes in rules interpretation is thinking that raw can only say one thing
That's irrelevant in this particular discussion, as the RAW pretty much does say only thing. I see two reasonable positions:
Fox Shape needs to be errata'd to require change shape, or
It doesn't, because intended or not, it works fine as it is.
Let's assume for a moment you were a developer and you wanted to make it really clear Fox Shape was allowed by Racial Heritage (kitsune). What language would you add to Fox Shape to make that so? You could write, "Special: This feat does not require change shape as a prerequisite." But then presumably you would list all the other things that also aren't prerequisites. Like, Power Attack, being a dragon, stonecunning, etc.
Very clearly, if this ability was meant to require change shape, its prerequisites SHOULD require change shape. If you believe that was an oversight, so be it, but that doesn't change the fact that currently, it's not there.
Also, I will say: I cannot speak for the writer of this feat, only for myself. But I know if I were writing a new ability that keyed off change shape, 100% of the time the Benefit would start with, "When you use change shape..." Period. That's how you write a feat that varies another ability.
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Here's an example of a carefully written feat from the same book:
Vulpine Pounce (Combat, Kitsune)
You can change shape mid-charge and pounce on an opponent in the same round.
Special: A kitsune may select this feat any time she would gain a feat.
Prerequisites: Swift Kitsune Shapechanger, base attack bonus +10, kitsune.
Benefit: When you change shape into your kitsune form and use the charge action in the same round, you can make a full attack against your opponent.
Emphasis mine. That's how you show you are modifying another ability.
Swift Kitsune Shapechanger is not itself written so clearly, but the Normal line makes the intent clear.
Another example
Realistic Likeness (Kitsune)
When you are in human form, you can take the shape of a specific individual.
Prerequisites: Kitsune.
Benefit: You can precisely mimic the physical features of any individual you have encountered. When you use your racial change shape ability, you can attempt to take the form of an individual, granting you a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks made to fool others with your impersonation.
See?
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One of the great mistakes in rules interpretation is thinking that raw can only say one thingThat's irrelevant in this particular discussion, as the RAW pretty much does say only thing. I see two reasonable positions:
Fox Shape needs to be errata'd to require change shape, or
It doesn't, because intended or not, it works fine as it is.Let's assume for a moment you were a developer and you wanted to make it really clear Fox Shape was allowed by Racial Heritage (kitsune). What language would you add to Fox Shape to make that so? You could write, "Special: This feat does not require change shape as a prerequisite." But then presumably you would list all the other things that also aren't prerequisites. Like, Power Attack, being a dragon, stonecunning, etc.
Very clearly, if this ability was meant to require change shape, its prerequisites SHOULD require change shape. If you believe that was an oversight, so be it, but that doesn't change the fact that currently, it's not there.
Also, I will say: I cannot speak for the write of this feat, only for myself. But I know if I were writing a new ability that keyed off change shape, 100% of the time the Benefit would start with, "When you use change shape..." Period. That's how you write a feat that varies another ability.
I'm just going to echo this. It might be intended to have Change Shape, but as written, it is not required. So ruling as written, there is no requirement to have Change Shape. That may be the intention, and I won't refute that. But there's no way RAW to interpret that you need something the feat does not say you need. It doesn't say you need Change Shape, it doesn't say you need anything other than 13 Charisma, +3 BAB, and being a Kitsune. That's the requirements. That's RAW.
But regardless, others may continue to interpret it by adding restrictions and limits on the rule that are not present. I'm not entirely sure why you'd add those restrictions, as it would make as much sense as adding restrictions to other feats like Power Attack, Cleave, etc, beyond the listed prerequisites as that's how you're "interpreting" those feats. If others continue to interpret the feat by adding prerequisites to feats that don't have them, then I suggest we all FAQ the OP and wait for official clarification on RAI.
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But yeah, I actually had this conversation with Brock IRL.
Coincidentally, at the time he said that having aesthetic changes due to Racial Heritage wasn't a big deal in PFS (the character in question wanted to be a fox-girl and took Racial Heritage(Kitsune) to have a fox tail and ears), but the mechanics stand as ruled. So in the end, Princess-Animal-Parts was greenlit by the boss, despite some VCs not agreeing with him on the aesthetics thing (but that's another can of worms in PFS)
This is the best news to come out of this thread for me. I'm so there. ^_^
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Alright... maybe I'm a little slow, but can someone explain to me why a PFS character with RH (kitsune) can't take Fox Shape? I was under the impression that RH was only restricted for rules elements from the ARG, and no other books.
Can someone lay it out for me, nice and clear? Thank you in advance!
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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why a PFS character with RH (kitsune) can't take Fox Shape?
Can someone lay it out for me, nice and clear? Thank you in advance!
Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer
Archetypes: all archetypes on pages 22-23; Feats: kitsune feats on page 5 are legal for kitsune characters
If you human, you can't take Fox Shape.
If that didn't exist, it would work out like this:
- PFS must use RAW, so PFS GM are told to follow the rules.
- GM are the people responsible for interpreting the rules.
- As a 150+ table credit GM of PFS, I'd say you can take Fox Shape via RH. But if you asked to take Fox Shape form, I'd say "You don't have Change Shape". So the feat you can take, is a no-op. It would do nothing for you.
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why a PFS character with RH (kitsune) can't take Fox Shape?
Can someone lay it out for me, nice and clear? Thank you in advance!
Pathfinder Player Companion: Dragon Empires Primer
Archetypes: all archetypes on pages 22-23; Feats: kitsune feats on page 5 are legal for kitsune characters
If you human, you can't take Fox Shape.
If that didn't exist, it would work out like this:
- PFS must use RAW, so PFS GM are told to follow the rules.
- GM are the people responsible for interpreting the rules.
- As a 150+ table credit GM of PFS, I'd say you can take Fox Shape via RH. But if you asked to take Fox Shape form, I'd say "You don't have Change Shape". So the feat you can take, is a no-op. It would do nothing for you.
Can you explain the distinction between this, the ARG, and taking racial feats from other sources?