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The fact a mage 'can' play like a Rogue is no reason to not play a rogue like a rogue.
The big thing is going to be the prevalence of anti-magic. ThE rogue thrives in no magic environments. So make sure you address that point. It doesn't mean that magic is illegal, or even fewer spellcasters around. It means that anti-magic defenses will quite reasonably be EVERYWHERE, and the players should be prepared for it. Casters are going to be shut down the way that melee and ranged attackers are, and frequently. If they don't have alternatives...sucks to be them!
==Aelryinth
And with the U-rogue capstone - as soon as he tricks a caster into an anti-magic zone he can insta-kill them with a single sniper shot. (Good luck passing that DC 29 Fort save vs death without magic Mr. Wizard with your... +8 bonus? Maybe +10 with inherent if you're not an elf.)
The key is climax, but the climax a rogue would engineer, which is likely never to be "I'll fight them."
Well, you might not want to necessarily engineer a climax, so much as have him caught off guard.
Of course, that would not make a good encounter, so it is best to catch him while he is checking in on one of his heavily guarded operations, and the climax comes from cutting through that to get to him before he gets what is going on and escapes.
Basically, catch him at his factory that grinds demons into drugs and the factory also sneaks that drugs into baby formula (to get them addicted early). Thus, you have guards designed both to keep out interlopers, keep escaped demons at bay, and to stop workers from sneaking hits of the product. Obviously, demons escape during the various fights and present a threat, as well as workers who might OD on the stuff and temporarily turn into half fiends all of a sudden.
That is the kind of campaign I would imagine a orgue BBEG might have. The atmosphere of organized crime in a high fantasy environment.
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From reading over this thread, this is the crux of what I have taken from it, and I believe it makes a very sturdy skeleton to build a campaign off of. Might try and work it up some more.
• Kingdom is suffering a curse or malady on an economically important region. Minor noble scion hires party to secure certain relics "for the kingdom".
• He assist them on the final requisition in person, and upon securing it, he abandons them in a remote, dangerous ruin while absconding with the treasure.
• After a grueling struggle to return to the kingdom, the party finds that the noble has already lifted the curse, and is set to marry the princess in a month (or whatever is appropriate).
• Party attempts to dig up dirt on noble, who seems to be connected to several criminal groups and characters within the kingdom and without. Party begins to be targeted by thuggish tactics (starting out with intimidation and brutalization of friends and family, and working up to assassination attempts on the party as well as their families and associates).
• Find leads pointing to him engineering the curse in the first place. Attempt to bring him to justice for his crimes, but find that their witnesses have had accidents or sudden forgetful spells, and evidence has gone missing or sites altered or cleaned up. Trial ends in his absolution and the party being ostracized and mocked. During this the thuggish assaults continue, as does political and police/military pressure on the party and their associates.
• Noble/Rogue marries princess.
• Shortly thereafter, the prince-heir takes ill. Noble/Rogue begins pressuring the king (through intermediaries and bought out advisors) to name his wife (the princess) as next in line behind the ailing prince.
• Party comes across evidence that the Noble/Rogue is behind the prince's ailment. Successfully present it to the king, causing him to call for the Noble/Rogue's immediate arrest and execution.
• The Rogue escapes.
• Party must seek him out amongst several of his criminal contacts, assaulting thieves' guilds, assassin's guild's, and a dark cult before finding out where his hideout is located. At some point during this, the rogue should make a personal hit on the party (with a few assassin goons backing him up) while they are sleeping somewhere they believe to be safe. He has a contingency word of recall or something similar to guarantee his escape.
• Attack the hideout, dealing with the Rogue's traps, goons, ambushes, and setups, before finally confronting him in a fight that utilizes all of these elements to his advantage.
• He should be very familiar with most of the party's tactics, and play to counter them, or even make them obsolete when possible.
Edit: Major overhaul as I developed the concept further.
The key is climax, but the climax a rogue would engineer, which is likely never to be "I'll fight them."Well, you might not want to necessarily engineer a climax, so much as have him caught off guard.
Of course, that would not make a good encounter, so it is best to catch him while he is checking in on one of his heavily guarded operations, and the climax comes from cutting through that to get to him before he gets what is going on and escapes.
Basically, catch him at his factory that grinds demons into drugs and the factory also sneaks that drugs into baby formula (to get them addicted early). Thus, you have guards designed both to keep out interlopers, keep escaped demons at bay, and to stop workers from sneaking hits of the product. Obviously, demons escape during the various fights and present a threat, as well as workers who might OD on the stuff and temporarily turn into half fiends all of a sudden.
That is the kind of campaign I would imagine a orgue BBEG might have. The atmosphere of organized crime in a high fantasy environment.
That is all at once fair and reasonable. There are many paths to a successful BBEG rogue, I feel.
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Assuming you're following the rules insteqd of GM-fiat'ing whatever you think fits the fluff text of the Rogue class... There is basically nothing a Rogue BBEG couldn't do as well or much better as a member of a different class.
Most (probably all) of the mentioned tactics that would make him an actual threat (picking the time and location of the encounter, setting ambushes and traps, fighting dirty, hiring goons, etc) are not limited to any class and Rogues aren't particularly good at any of that)
There is one thing that rogues and only rogues get, and it was the basis of my suggestion: the Thug archetype. Rogues can use Intimidate to inflict the Frightened condition nonmagically, which means no limit on times-per-day, no saving throw, no SR, no Protection from Evil*, no nothing. Your only defense is having max ranks in Sense Motive, and even then a rogue built to Intimidate will hit the DC more often than not. Add in the greater invisibility effect of Invisible Blade (not exclusive to rogues, but put to good use by them) and you don't even get to see what you're fighting to know how to counter it, while you take full (nonlethal) sneak attack damage every round from the thing that's inflicting the Frightened condition.
Sure, a Slayer with a potion of Greater Invisibility could probably TPK your group more efficiently. A bard or cleric could probably deny more player agency by keeping the characters fleeing in fear for longer. But remember-- a BBEG should be a hard fight, but ultimately a winnable one, and a memorable one. I guarantee you they'll be talking about The Invisible Thug for years.
*Okay, Prot: Evil will still apply to their AC against him hitting them, but he gets a +2 for being invisible on top of only having to hit flat-footed AC. And if he misses, he's still invisible, so he can just swing again.
The fact a mage 'can' play like a Rogue is no reason to not play a rogue like a rogue.
The big thing is going to be the prevalence of anti-magic. ThE rogue thrives in no magic environments. So make sure you address that point. It doesn't mean that magic is illegal, or even fewer spellcasters around. It means that anti-magic defenses will quite reasonably be EVERYWHERE, and the players should be prepared for it. Casters are going to be shut down the way that melee and ranged attackers are, and frequently. If they don't have alternatives...sucks to be them!
Here is how you do it:
Citywide defenses against flight that is not 'natural': Prevents flyovers by magical creatures and wizards and bombing the city.
Citywide ward against charms: Charmed people glow pink, instantly betraying the fact their will has been subverted.
Magic glows at entry points: A physical reaction, so guards can see magic coming into and out of places. Stops a lot of smuggling, and people girt head to toe in magic are noted with alertness.
Citywide Interdiction against dimensional magic: This prevents gating, teleporting, summoning, dimension dooring, mage's mansions, bags of holding and suchlike. Stops many invasion plans, unregulated travel, a great deal of easy smuggling, and bringing in foul monsters to terrorize innocents, while making strategic and tactical control of positions of importance in the city still important. It also keeps property values pointedly high and current.
Anti-Magic Shells in important areas to politicians/rulership/command: Completely shuts down ANY magical threat from most magical sources in those areas.
Undead glow black: Faerie fire coats all undead in black flames. Can't have them hiding among the living!
True Sight Seekers: The city regularly has a special secret corps that walks the streets with True Sight, looking for disguised and shapechanged beings trying to infiltrate society. Keeps the dopplegangers in check. This is combined with Urban Rangers with FE: Human and FT: Urban,...
Translation:
Tell the caster players to go home because they are ruining your story and game play.
Or
You can always just full casters...
Since they punch more holes into rogue centric plots than a issue of Silver Age Superman...
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Assuming you're following the rules insteqd of GM-fiat'ing whatever you think fits the fluff text of the Rogue class... There is basically nothing a Rogue BBEG couldn't do as well or much better as a member of a different class.
Most (probably all) of the mentioned tactics that would make him an actual threat (picking the time and location of the encounter, setting ambushes and traps, fighting dirty, hiring goons, etc) are not limited to any class and Rogues aren't particularly good at any of that)
There is one thing that rogues and only rogues get, and it was the basis of my suggestion: the Thug archetype. Rogues can use Intimidate to inflict the Frightened condition nonmagically, which means no limit on times-per-day, no saving throw, no SR, no Protection from Evil*, no nothing. Your only defense is having max ranks in Sense Motive, and even then a rogue built to Intimidate will hit the DC more often than not. Add in the greater invisibility effect of Invisible Blade (not exclusive to rogues, but put to good use by them) and you don't even get to see what you're fighting to know how to counter it, while you take full (nonlethal) sneak attack damage every round from the thing that's inflicting the Frightened condition.
Sure, a Slayer with a potion of Greater Invisibility could probably TPK your group more efficiently. A bard or cleric could probably deny more player agency by keeping the characters fleeing in fear for longer. But remember-- a BBEG should be a hard fight, but ultimately a winnable one, and a memorable one. I guarantee you they'll be talking about The Invisible Thug for years.
*Okay, Prot: Evil will still apply to their AC against him hitting them, but he gets a +2 for being invisible on top of only having to hit flat-footed AC. And if he misses, he's still invisible, so he can just swing again.
Anyone can get that by selling their soul with damnation feats and intimidate feats like Enforcer.
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After some reflection, I believe that perhaps the most effective way to handle the final encounter would be to have the rogue immediately surrender and request a fair trial for his crimes. I'd say not handling a prisoner fairly would be a severe tick against a Good alignment, so provided the party is at least partly good, that ensures the rogue gets a trial.
Of course, if he's spent his gold wisely and utilized his social skills as well as can, he'd be immediately acquitted. Turn a combat Final Encounter (something a rogue could be effective in, but that would likely minimize player enjoyment) into an ethical and social dilemma Final Encounter. Eh?
Oh.
You mean: "Diplomatic Immunity!"
Followed immediately by "It's just been revoked..."
After some reflection, I believe that perhaps the most effective way to handle the final encounter would be to have the rogue immediately surrender and request a fair trial for his crimes. I'd say not handling a prisoner fairly would be a severe tick against a Good alignment, so provided the party is at least partly good, that ensures the rogue gets a trial.
Of course, if he's spent his gold wisely and utilized his social skills as well as can, he'd be immediately acquitted. Turn a combat Final Encounter (something a rogue could be effective in, but that would likely minimize player enjoyment) into an ethical and social dilemma Final Encounter. Eh?
Oh.
You mean: "Diplomatic Immunity!"
Followed immediately by "It's just been revoked..."
Would that seriously surprise anyone at all? I mean, why on earth would any character who isn't heavily into honor over reason ever turn the scheming political mastermind over to the people who he bribes regularly into doing his bidding. It is almost guaranteed that he will not be brought to justice.
I would also laugh at a GM that tried to stop an attempt to execute the prisoner with threats of alignment change. My response would be something like "'K, drop my PC down to true neutral. He still slits the guy's throat...now, who has that scroll of soul bind...".
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After some reflection, I believe that perhaps the most effective way to handle the final encounter would be to have the rogue immediately surrender and request a fair trial for his crimes. I'd say not handling a prisoner fairly would be a severe tick against a Good alignment, so provided the party is at least partly good, that ensures the rogue gets a trial.
Of course, if he's spent his gold wisely and utilized his social skills as well as can, he'd be immediately acquitted. Turn a combat Final Encounter (something a rogue could be effective in, but that would likely minimize player enjoyment) into an ethical and social dilemma Final Encounter. Eh?
Oh.
You mean: "Diplomatic Immunity!"
Followed immediately by "It's just been revoked..."
Would that seriously surprise anyone at all? I mean, why on earth would any character who isn't heavily into honor over reason ever turn the scheming political mastermind over to the people who he bribes regularly into doing his bidding. It is almost guaranteed that he will not be brought to justice.
I would also laugh at a GM that tried to stop an attempt to execute the prisoner with threats of alignment change. My response would be something like "'K, drop my PC down to true neutral. He still slits the guy's throat...now, who has that scroll of soul bind...".
....which is why you don't try to discourage the party using alignment rules (obviously it is an open and shut case, due to all the corruption), you do it with acutal in game rules- ie- the laws against executing prisoners without trials.
I would imagine that such a BBEG would give very hefty 'screw you' insurance in the form of HUGE bribes to insure that the entire nation is out to imprison and execute the guys that killed him.
Wizards usually think they are near invincible as long as they are smart about it. Thieves know they could be killed any day, and they make plans for that.
So, what are the spells and items for delivering automatic messages attached that trigger undercertain circumstances (ie- BBEG rogue's death). Preferrably some illusion popping up gloating "Great job murderering me, I'm sure the governor will show his appreciation with a nice set of 'neckties' for each of you"
...
....which is why you don't try to discourage the party using alignment rules (obviously it is an open and shut case, due to all the corruption), you do it with acutal in game rules- ie- the laws against executing prisoners without trials.I would imagine that such a BBEG would give very hefty 'screw you' insurance in the form of HUGE bribes to insure that the entire nation is out to imprison and execute the guys that killed him.
Wizards usually think they are near invincible as long as they are smart about it. Thieves know they could be killed any day, and they make plans for that.
So what, if they kill him they are in a lot of legal trouble, but the Rogue is dead, or they let the rogue live and...he makes all the above anyway and more, and he is still alive to boot?
That's still a terrible reason to keep the rogue alive. Unless the rogue is a complete moron, he will devote massive resources towards destroying the party that almost had him but for their sudden last minute stupidity as soon as he gets free of them. Considering that, killing him instead of effectively letting him go free is incredibly unlikely to make the party's position worse.
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So what, if they kill him they are in a lot of legal trouble, but the Rogue is dead, or they let the rogue live and...he makes all the above anyway and more, and he is still alive to boot?
That's still a terrible reason to keep the rogue alive. Unless the rogue is a complete moron, he will devote massive resources towards destroying the party that almost had him but for their sudden last minute stupidity as soon as he gets free of them. Considering that, killing him instead of effectively letting him go free is incredibly unlikely to make the party's position worse.
Yes, it is supposed to be quite the problem. It is one of the main things for a more social BBEG, to try to engineer no win scenarios.
Also, there is always the problem of thinking you solved the problem. Because with your guys captured and imprisoned...who is watching the gem for soul trap? When you look at it like that....it is a much better insurance policy.
That is the problem with social BBEGs- you have to find a way to deal with that political power before you can too reliably eliminate them.
And I am saying this not in terms of a 'rogue BBEG', but anyone that can set these things up. Be they bard, wizard, or even just aristocrats with some persuasive servants.
Didn't bother reading the entire thread, just gonna drop my advice:
BBEG Rogue? Play The Long Con. Introduce the BBEG as a friend to the party WAY before you plan on dropping the boss on them. Let the BBEG help them, let the BBEG become one of their most trusted allies. Let them let the BBEG CLOSE.
Let the BBEG assist them in setting up everything they desire, because, in reality, it's exactly what the BBEG desires.
Let them nearly complete some insanely, near impossible task that will reward them with incredible power once completed. Then stab them in the back when they are at their weakest.
Let's talk about an example:
Maybe there's a ritual that requires a particular artifact in a dragon's horde, that when combined with the crown jewels, allows for the user to gain immense power. There's a dragon's lair dungeon: traps, monsters, environmental hazards, the works. The party's resources are worked throughout the entire dungeon crawl, the rogue (who should have by this time established themselves as a trusted friend of the party) helps the party avoid SOME of these encounters (such as disabling particularly nasty traps or having had researched the layout of this legendary lair). The party still uses a number of their resources, gets to a big ol dragon fight (who doesn't like dragons?) and when the dust settles, they are victorious.
They just killed a dragon! The treasure is theirs! Chances are they will start IDing treasure. Chances are they won't stop to heal before looting that giant mat of coins and weapons. Chances are that they will let their guard down. Chances are they will think that the big ol dragon *was* the BBEG. The knife in the chest of their wizard will inform them otherwise....
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After some reflection, I believe that perhaps the most effective way to handle the final encounter would be to have the rogue immediately surrender and request a fair trial for his crimes. I'd say not handling a prisoner fairly would be a severe tick against a Good alignment, so provided the party is at least partly good, that ensures the rogue gets a trial.
Of course, if he's spent his gold wisely and utilized his social skills as well as can, he'd be immediately acquitted. Turn a combat Final Encounter (something a rogue could be effective in, but that would likely minimize player enjoyment) into an ethical and social dilemma Final Encounter. Eh?
Oh.
You mean: "Diplomatic Immunity!"
Followed immediately by "It's just been revoked..."
Would that seriously surprise anyone at all? I mean, why on earth would any character who isn't heavily into honor over reason ever turn the scheming political mastermind over to the people who he bribes regularly into doing his bidding. It is almost guaranteed that he will not be brought to justice.
I would also laugh at a GM that tried to stop an attempt to execute the prisoner with threats of alignment change. My response would be something like "'K, drop my PC down to true neutral. He still slits the guy's throat...now, who has that scroll of soul bind...".
I would totally do this plot and it turns out that it's all a ruse. Its not the real guy but a rival to the BBEG. They just got tricked into killing a different evil guy with political immunity to get them all to become fugitives and get rid of a guy he wanted gone.
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I would totally do this plot and it turns out that it's all a ruse. Its not the real guy but a rival to the BBEG. They just got tricked into killing a different evil guy with political immunity to get them all to become fugitives and get rid of a guy he wanted gone.After some reflection, I believe that perhaps the most effective way to handle the final encounter would be to have the rogue immediately surrender and request a fair trial for his crimes. I'd say not handling a prisoner fairly would be a severe tick against a Good alignment, so provided the party is at least partly good, that ensures the rogue gets a trial.
Of course, if he's spent his gold wisely and utilized his social skills as well as can, he'd be immediately acquitted. Turn a combat Final Encounter (something a rogue could be effective in, but that would likely minimize player enjoyment) into an ethical and social dilemma Final Encounter. Eh?
Oh.
You mean: "Diplomatic Immunity!"
Followed immediately by "It's just been revoked..."
Would that seriously surprise anyone at all? I mean, why on earth would any character who isn't heavily into honor over reason ever turn the scheming political mastermind over to the people who he bribes regularly into doing his bidding. It is almost guaranteed that he will not be brought to justice.
I would also laugh at a GM that tried to stop an attempt to execute the prisoner with threats of alignment change. My response would be something like "'K, drop my PC down to true neutral. He still slits the guy's throat...now, who has that scroll of soul bind...".
Exactly. It's all a game within a game.
Exactly. It's all a game within a game.I would totally do this plot and it turns out that it's all a ruse. Its not the real guy but a rival to the BBEG. They just got tricked into killing a different evil guy with political immunity to get them all to become fugitives and get rid of a guy he wanted gone.After some reflection, I believe that perhaps the most effective way to handle the final encounter would be to have the rogue immediately surrender and request a fair trial for his crimes. I'd say not handling a prisoner fairly would be a severe tick against a Good alignment, so provided the party is at least partly good, that ensures the rogue gets a trial.
Of course, if he's spent his gold wisely and utilized his social skills as well as can, he'd be immediately acquitted. Turn a combat Final Encounter (something a rogue could be effective in, but that would likely minimize player enjoyment) into an ethical and social dilemma Final Encounter. Eh?
Oh.
You mean: "Diplomatic Immunity!"
Followed immediately by "It's just been revoked..."
Would that seriously surprise anyone at all? I mean, why on earth would any character who isn't heavily into honor over reason ever turn the scheming political mastermind over to the people who he bribes regularly into doing his bidding. It is almost guaranteed that he will not be brought to justice.
I would also laugh at a GM that tried to stop an attempt to execute the prisoner with threats of alignment change. My response would be something like "'K, drop my PC down to true neutral. He still slits the guy's throat...now, who has that scroll of soul bind...".
So what, there are now two criminal rogue masterminds with vast underground networks that essentially control everything?
It's a good thing they killed the rival. Otherwise the vacuum the BBEG would leave after being removed would just be filled by a guy they don't even know about.
Exactly. It's all a game within a game.I would totally do this plot and it turns out that it's all a ruse. Its not the real guy but a rival to the BBEG. They just got tricked into killing a different evil guy with political immunity to get them all to become fugitives and get rid of a guy he wanted gone.After some reflection, I believe that perhaps the most effective way to handle the final encounter would be to have the rogue immediately surrender and request a fair trial for his crimes. I'd say not handling a prisoner fairly would be a severe tick against a Good alignment, so provided the party is at least partly good, that ensures the rogue gets a trial.
Of course, if he's spent his gold wisely and utilized his social skills as well as can, he'd be immediately acquitted. Turn a combat Final Encounter (something a rogue could be effective in, but that would likely minimize player enjoyment) into an ethical and social dilemma Final Encounter. Eh?
Oh.
You mean: "Diplomatic Immunity!"
Followed immediately by "It's just been revoked..."
Would that seriously surprise anyone at all? I mean, why on earth would any character who isn't heavily into honor over reason ever turn the scheming political mastermind over to the people who he bribes regularly into doing his bidding. It is almost guaranteed that he will not be brought to justice.
I would also laugh at a GM that tried to stop an attempt to execute the prisoner with threats of alignment change. My response would be something like "'K, drop my PC down to true neutral. He still slits the guy's throat...now, who has that scroll of soul bind...".
So what, there are now two criminal rogue masterminds with vast underground networks that essentially control everything?
It's a good thing they killed the rival. Otherwise the vacuum the BBEG would leave after being...
That's more or less how it works in the real world. There's usually not just ONE crime syndicate.
Unless the BBEG wanted that guy gone in order to get access to something that's part of a worse plan than a simple rogue's guild.
Unless the BBEG wanted that guy gone in order to get access to something that's part of a worse plan than a simple rogue's guild.
I see it as sort of a game of power. The Syndicate wants the Mafia out of the picture, but if they move against the Mafia then the Yakuza and the Triad move against them. Get a couple of "do gooders" to do the legwork, causing the aggression of the other gangs to focus on the heroes while leaving the Syndicate out of harm's way? Sounds like a plan.
Alternative. BBEG is not the top rank of the Syndicate, just the most power hungry and most manipulative. Think Handsome Jack....
As far as fighting potential, an Unchained Rogue can be a very powerful high level combatant. Level 15 stealth skill unlock, pump Stealth, Dampen Presence feat, Hellcat Stealth, maybe even a dip into Shadow Dancer... you are looking at always sneak attacking dude who is pretty much impossible for anyone but the most dedicated Perception characters to find even if you manage to Glitterdust him.
Mundane Disguise is also very handy with skill unlocks as you get to ignore penalties for drastic appearance changes; pump disguise too and have the powers of a Quick Change cloak added to your normal resistance cloak and with a bit of preparation you can almost unbeatable disguise checks too, even if you are pretending to be a high level PC's mother and routinely interacting with him.
You pretty much have a badass "kill and replace" style villain there who can also stand his ground in practically any "fair fight."
One of the NPCs in my game is a Halfling rogue with the child-like feat. She keeps convincing prominent people to adopt her, which she uses as cover to commit crimes and usually culminating with stealing everything from her "family" then killing them, then moving to another city and starting over. While she isn't the BBEG for the campaign, she is going to be a source of trouble.
The PCs have already encountered her once, felt sorry for her and actually paid for her passage to a different city to go live with "distant relatives" after her "family" was killed by the local "thieves guild" and her home was burned down. (The father was in fact fairly high up in the guild, and was going to be having a "talk" with the leader after one of their storerooms full of treasure was raided and he was implicated.) This did lead to the PCs taking down the guild, who were guilty of plenty of other crimes even if they were innocent of killing the "girl's" family.
The PCs are going to be unpleasantly surprised when they get to the city where they sent her.
Assuming you're following the rules insteqd of GM-fiat'ing whatever you think fits the fluff text of the Rogue class... There is basically nothing a Rogue BBEG couldn't do as well or much better as a member of a different class.Any class with social skills could do the same. It's been bugging me how almost all of the suggestions that aren't about the final boss fight could be done by an Expert or an Aristocrat. {. . .}I don't think he's saying that the ROgue is best...it's that could the ROgue do the job?
Yes, he could.
=Aelryinth
This is partly true, and works even a Commoner, if you're really crazy. After all, as we have seen, even Ned Flanders has a tiny but nonzero chance of becoming unquestioned lord and master of the world -- scroll down to #4. (Of course, Ned Flanders also has a tiny but nonzero chance of turning out to be The Devil -- scroll down to #2.)
* * * * * * * *
I still like the idea of the Boss Tweed type of Rogue, only turned up to 11 -- the Rogue IS the law, and is ruling the roost out in plain view, and you can't do anything about it.
Exactly. It's all a game within a game.I would totally do this plot and it turns out that it's all a ruse. Its not the real guy but a rival to the BBEG. They just got tricked into killing a different evil guy with political immunity to get them all to become fugitives and get rid of a guy he wanted gone.After some reflection, I believe that perhaps the most effective way to handle the final encounter would be to have the rogue immediately surrender and request a fair trial for his crimes. I'd say not handling a prisoner fairly would be a severe tick against a Good alignment, so provided the party is at least partly good, that ensures the rogue gets a trial.
Of course, if he's spent his gold wisely and utilized his social skills as well as can, he'd be immediately acquitted. Turn a combat Final Encounter (something a rogue could be effective in, but that would likely minimize player enjoyment) into an ethical and social dilemma Final Encounter. Eh?
Oh.
You mean: "Diplomatic Immunity!"
Followed immediately by "It's just been revoked..."
Would that seriously surprise anyone at all? I mean, why on earth would any character who isn't heavily into honor over reason ever turn the scheming political mastermind over to the people who he bribes regularly into doing his bidding. It is almost guaranteed that he will not be brought to justice.
I would also laugh at a GM that tried to stop an attempt to execute the prisoner with threats of alignment change. My response would be something like "'K, drop my PC down to true neutral. He still slits the guy's throat...now, who has that scroll of soul bind...".
So what, there are now two criminal rogue masterminds with vast underground networks that essentially control everything?
It's a good thing they killed the rival. Otherwise the vacuum the BBEG would leave after being...
I get this unpleasantly distasteful feeling that you just don't like anything.
Separately, yes. The majority of what has been said along this line is both reasonable and realistic. It would be an excellent means of handling a rogue- doing everything one expects from a rogue. Resources, social skills, general trickery... And well executed. I would be very disconcerted to find a group that didn't enjoy something like this.
Assuming you're following the rules insteqd of GM-fiat'ing whatever you think fits the fluff text of the Rogue class... There is basically nothing a Rogue BBEG couldn't do as well or much better as a member of a different class.Any class with social skills could do the same. It's been bugging me how almost all of the suggestions that aren't about the final boss fight could be done by an Expert or an Aristocrat. {. . .}I don't think he's saying that the ROgue is best...it's that could the ROgue do the job?
Yes, he could.
=Aelryinth
This is partly true, and works even a Commoner, if you're really crazy. After all, as we have seen, even Ned Flanders has a tiny but nonzero chance of becoming unquestioned lord and master of the world -- scroll down to #4. (Of course, Ned Flanders also has a tiny but nonzero chance of turning out to be The Devil -- scroll down to #2.)
* * * * * * * *
I still like the idea of the Boss Tweed type of Rogue, only turned up to 11 -- the Rogue IS the law, and is ruling the roost out in plain view, and you can't do anything about it.
I have to say that I keep seeing this "There's nothing x can do that a commoner can't" argument, and it is entirely without merit, and not terribly pertinent. With the right combination of level, feats, skill point usage, and equipment, there isn't anything a commoner can't do. High UMD + staves, scrolls and potions = wizard. High sneak, sleight of hand, bluff, and a dozen scrolls of summon monster I (for traps, of course) = rogue. And so on.
So, if one wishes to take this pithy argument to extremes, we could in fact eliminate all (player) classes and present only the option of Commoner, and still see a roughly equivalent amount of diversity and options.
That doesn't make choosing a rogue, or a fighter, or a sorcerer, invalid.
I have to say that I keep seeing this "There's nothing x can do that a commoner can't" argument, and it is entirely without merit, and not terribly pertinent. With the right combination of level, feats, skill point usage, and equipment, there isn't anything a commoner can't do. High UMD + staves, scrolls and potions = wizard. High sneak, sleight of hand, bluff, and a dozen scrolls of summon monster I (for traps, of course) = rogue. And so on.
So, if one wishes to take this pithy argument to extremes, we could in fact eliminate all (player) classes and present only the option of Commoner, and still see a roughly equivalent amount of diversity and options.
That doesn't make choosing a rogue, or a fighter, or a sorcerer, invalid.
The argument is generally that you can't do X any better than a Commoner with the same resources... Or at least, not significantly better.
e.g.: When people claim that Fighters have lots of skills because they can raise Int. That's a poor argument, because a Commoner with the same attributes has just as many skill points. So unless they are claiming that Commoners make awesome skill monkeys, they have to admit Fighters do indeed have very few skill points.
It makes no sense to compare a character to a Commoner (or anything else, really) who has unlimited resources.
Because with unlimited resources, you can get yourself Wondrous Item crafting feats, and with those, you can get yourself Spellcraft or Craft check boosters, and with those and your infinite money, you could make an item of infinite Time Stop or Wish on command or any number of summoned Planar Allies.
Because I just felt like going that far.
Uh... Is this reply directed at me?
I have never seen a rogue BBGED that did anything but die pitifully and quickly when they used the same stealth rules that the players did.
Big Bad Guy at End of Dungeon
How are we defining BBEG?
Rogues make horrible 'boss encounters' [but then I hate boss encounters anyway.]
What they DO make, is Fantastic Puppet Masters. The type of arch-villain who doesn't fight, but masterfully manipulates competent pawns to fight for him.
They have very little to help them do this other than the +3 class bonus for skills. That pales incomparison to the same/better bonus on a bard +the bards spells.
I meant thematically. The GM can write the story however he sees fit and a comparatively powerless rogue pulling the strings behind it all is awesome.
Whats awesome about it?
A 20th level unchained rogue with the right skill unlocks can actually do something a bard will have trouble matching. Unlimited suggestions, and the ability to read surface as a standard action unlimited times per day is something even a bard is not able to do. Since these abilities are skills they even work in an antimagic zone.
Hellcat stealth and the skill unlock for stealth gives a reliable method of getting sneak attack.
This is not to say the rogue is better than the bard. The bard spells are going to give him more flexibility, but in a narrow way the 20th level rogue has a couple of unique abilities.
Personally I think the Mesmerist is the better puppetmaster....
I mean, having permenate Dominate and all....
1) The Bard had already diplomanced the whole town into liking her through well before hand (all were friendly to her).
2) She did not Dominate the Mayor. She Dominated a friend of the Mayor's friend to get close to the Mayor's friend to be invited to the Mayor's Ball to plant suggestions (via the diplomacy skill) to the mayor. That way, whenever anyone suggested the mayor was under magical control, there would be no sign since there was never any magic to start with.
It made the party look VERY bad to the populace (you just accused a popular social icon of something horrid with no way to prove it) and made things very interesting lol
Personally I think the Mesmerist is the better puppetmaster....
I mean, having permenate Dominate and all....
** spoiler omitted **
That is about the only one that I can see as an actually good manipulator. And even then...it is rather limited due to the fact that you only have one (not to mention this appears to be a capstone, which means he can't do it prior to level 20)
With all the mentions of bards and such with dominate spells...it brings up a rather obvious problem- you have to do maintenance on that stuff. You need to routinely redo the spell.
So if someone suddenly had a change in attitude shortly after they get routine visits from a mysterious stranger every 10 days (or they head towards one specific abandoned warehouse every 10 days)...people get suspicious.
While dominate is obviously great in the short term, I think it is better to use more mundane bribes, blackmail, and other forms of manipulation. That way, you can send middle men carying bribes, embarassing photos, and/or the severed fingers of loved ones. Having to go yourself on a routine basis is a good way to walk into some do-gooder's trap.
Not saying this is rogue exclusive territory, obviously, since a wizard can mail fingers just as well (in some ways better, since I am sure there are spells where you don't need to use tracable messengers). Just saying that dominate is not something to base a crime empire off of.
Greater Teleport + Greater Invisibility + Extended Dominate Person = Lots of unscheduled "private visits"
Mundane stuff is for when a wizard/mesmerist can't be bothered with magic, for lower level officials.
Thought I do support the idea of a rogue doing all things. Rogues need more love, especially as BBEGs.
It can still be a lot of leg work, which grows with each dominated servant. And it still increases your risks that....a bothersome interloper with maxed out ranks in perception (because who doesn't max that?) might stumble in...perhaps trying to petition the dominated official to rethink this callous plan suddenly decided to initiate.
Really, looking at it... it again makes me question a wizard BBEG, since their power increasingly means they have to take matters into their own hands. That is the way most of this board seems to approach them.
Seriosuly, if you HAVE to dominate people, why not hire a wizard? Sure, certain risks when dealing with people that manipulate minds for a living, but there are plenty of counter measures and insurance plans you can use... but when it is someone else that gets the greatsword in the face when something goes wrong... well... you care less about the small details like how suspicious the maintenance routine looks.
Again, not rogue specific... just that there is far less temptation to do everything yourself as a rogue. Most of the people on these boards seem to have more of a player mindset than a master mind's mindset.
Assuming you're following the rules insteqd of GM-fiat'ing whatever you think fits the fluff text of the Rogue class... There is basically nothing a Rogue BBEG couldn't do as well or much better as a member of a different class.Any class with social skills could do the same. It's been bugging me how almost all of the suggestions that aren't about the final boss fight could be done by an Expert or an Aristocrat. {. . .}I don't think he's saying that the ROgue is best...it's that could the ROgue do the job?
Yes, he could.
=Aelryinth
This is partly true, and works even a Commoner, if you're really crazy. After all, as we have seen, even Ned Flanders has a tiny but nonzero chance of becoming unquestioned lord and master of the world -- scroll down to #4. (Of course, Ned Flanders also has a tiny but nonzero chance of turning out to be The Devil -- scroll down to #2.)
* * * * * * * *
I still like the idea of the Boss Tweed type of Rogue, only turned up to 11 -- the Rogue IS the law, and is ruling the roost out in plain view, and you can't do anything about it.
I have to say that I keep seeing this "There's nothing x can do that a commoner can't" argument, and it is entirely without merit, and not terribly pertinent. With the right combination of level, feats, skill point usage, and equipment, there isn't anything a commoner can't do. High UMD + staves, scrolls and potions = wizard. High sneak, sleight of hand, bluff, and a dozen scrolls of summon monster I (for traps, of course) = rogue. And so on.
That doesn't make choosing a rogue, or a fighter, or a sorcerer, invalid.
I wasn't trying to say choosing a Rogue was invalid, but rather to respond to the argument of NPC classes being able to do the Rogue's job just as well. In retrospect, I should have added ". . . but the Rogue can do this better . . ." at the end of that part of my post. (In other words, we are more on the same side of the argument than it might appear at first glance.)
Certainly for a Boss Tweed type, being a Commoner is possible -- but being a Rogue makes it easier to get started, as well as gives you an edge in case you need to do some emergency maintenance work on your empire of crime (especially if it involves underhanded tasks that you just can't trust anyone else to do), or -- if worst comes to worst, to make a hasty exit (preferably with a whole bunch of loot as well as dirt on various important people) in case things really get bad. Sure, a Wizard can do these things better in bursts -- but you can keep doing them, and you can do them in an Antimagic Field -- might even be a good idea to carry around an Antimagic Field device to give yourself an edge in case you run into some do-gooder Wizard.
So, if one wishes to take this pithy argument to extremes, we could in fact eliminate all (player) classes and present only the option of Commoner, and still see a roughly equivalent amount of diversity and options.
Thats why my Bard didnt dominate the obvious target. She dominated a friend of a friend for a short term schtick to get close and let her diplomacyan d bluff take care of the rest.
Thats why my Bard didnt dominate the obvious target. She dominated a friend of a friend for a short term schtick to get close and let her diplomacyan d bluff take care of the rest.
I question whether diplomacy/bluff could accomplish the same thing, but yes, that is a more appropriate use of dominate, since it is short term and looks for immediate goals.
Thats why my Bard didnt dominate the obvious target. She dominated a friend of a friend for a short term schtick to get close and let her diplomacyan d bluff take care of the rest.I question whether diplomacy/bluff could accomplish the same thing, but yes, that is a more appropriate use of dominate, since it is short term and looks for immediate goals.
Oh sure you could bluff/diplomacy. But dominate is pretty sure fire.
My bard utilizes a mix of dominated minions and Bluff / diplomacy to keep herself safe xD
A 20th level unchained rogue with the right skill unlocks can actually do something a bard will have trouble matching. Unlimited suggestions, and the ability to read surface as a standard action unlimited times per day is something even a bard is not able to do. Since these abilities are skills they even work in an antimagic zone.
Hellcat stealth and the skill unlock for stealth gives a reliable method of getting sneak attack.
This is not to say the rogue is better than the bard. The bard spells are going to give him more flexibility, but in a narrow way the 20th level rogue has a couple of unique abilities.
Ah, so URogue. That makes sense, since I haven't looked at those. Thank you.
Also, everyone bringing up dominate might want to look at Sense Motive.
Sense Enchantment: You can tell that someone's behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect even if that person isn't aware of it. The usual DC is 25, but if the target is dominated (see dominate person), the DC is only 15 because of the limited range of the target's activities.So... that's take 10 on anyone with 12 wisdom and a single point (as a class skill). Or take 10 on an untrained cleric/druid/wis-caster/monk? at some point. More likely kings/leaders/etc. keep around an Expert trained in it who can pick up that stuff. Charm is harder but my bard was somewhere in the 20s pretty comfortably by 8th level or so (versatile performance is awesome). Players can probably pretty easily blow the DC 25 out of the water by mid levels.
Hence friend of friend.
You have to be smart aboit these things. Everyone watches the people near the king. No one watches the people.who are near the people who are near the people who are near the king.
Thats why my Bard didnt dominate the obvious target. She dominated a friend of a friend for a short term schtick to get close and let her diplomacyan d bluff take care of the rest.I question whether diplomacy/bluff could accomplish the same thing, but yes, that is a more appropriate use of dominate, since it is short term and looks for immediate goals.Oh sure you could bluff/diplomacy. But dominate is pretty sure fire.
My bard utilizes a mix of dominated minions and Bluff / diplomacy to keep herself safe xD
Just saying- if a 3rd party sees you, they are more suspicious if they see you chanting a spell than if you are just sweet talking the maid.
If they see you sweet talking the maid, they might presume it was for...other reasons, and think it isn't any of their business. They might still tell people, but that would just be a bit of pleasant gossip... unlikely to cause trouble unless she has a boyfriend/husband. And if that goes a certain way (ie- drawn swords), you can definitely use a dominate without anyone questioning you.
Actually, that could be a rather nice way to get a target dominated in a socially acceptable manner.