Bilious Bottle, does it trigger the first time you encounter it when you just flipped the card? and then this happened ...


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Situation: 1

I start my turn by advancing the blessing deck, then move to my location deck and flip the first card, nothing is displayed at this time. The "Bottle Bottle" barrier card is the first and only card flipped. The card reads as follows:

"Display the barrier faceup next to your location. The first time each turn that a character explorers this location, each character at that location rolls 1d4"

1. You are dealt 1d4+1 poison damage
2. You are dealt 1d4+1 fire damage
3. Bury the top card of your deck
4. Discard a card and banish this barrier

So, as you can see above, I advanced the blessing card and flipped this card and it is my first exploration. Do I encounter this card now and roll my 1d4 to resolve my encounter right now? Or, end my turn resolve the end of turn step; now that it's displayed, going forward, anyone at this location when they start his/her turn makes the check until someone rolls a 4 and then we can banish it

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Situation: 2

** Let's say I roll the following **
1. You are dealt 1d4+1 poison damage: I roll and get a "2", it's 2+1=3 total poison damage
(If I have an armor that states reduce "poison damage by 1, 2, or 3" I can use it, OR if I have an armor that states banish it to reduce "all damage" to 0, I can use that one card instead to reduce the damage the total to 0?)

2. You are dealt 1d4+1 fire damage: I roll and get a "1", it's 1+1=2 total damage
(If I have an armor that states reduce "fire damage by 1, 2, or 3" I can use it, OR if I have an armor that states banish it to reduce "all damage" to 0, I can use that one card instead to reduce the damage the total to 0?)

3. Bury the top card of your deck
(got this one ... np)

4. Discard a card and banish this barrier
(got this one as well ... np)

Reason why, I'm getting that same o' conversation regarding damage. "it says in the rule book : specific type of damage." the armor doesn't state "poison or fire damage".

He's what I say to help them understand :

If you read the card like this : blah blah "poison combat damage - then it's COMBAT DAMAGE, period. You can use an armor that states "discard/recharge/bury to reduce the combat damage by X amount"

If you read the card like this : blah blah "poison damage - then it's damage of that type of damage and you need to have an armor that reads "reduce poison damage by X amount OR banish the armor to reduce the "all the damage".

Hopefully I can get the answer and have them refer to this post for help understanding this. Seems I'm the only one at the table really trying to understand the rules precisely.

Thanks in advance for taken the time to read and respond if you did.


Situation 1: The way it it is worded I believe you would end your turn and wouldn't have to resolve any rolls until your next turn and explore.

Situation 2: You're second example on damage is correct, there are many types of damage not just one. If the I instruction is to take POISON damage you cannot reveal or recharge an armor that negates COMBAT damage as they are not the same thing. In that situation however you can banish or bury to reduce damage to zero because that is specified as All damage. ^_^

Grand Lodge

Situation 1: You don't roll. Your first explore was the card. You've encountered it and displayed it next to the location. It is no longer your first explore ... it's been resolved. (You can explore again if you had the cards.) And you could end your turn at this point.

Situation 2: 1) You've got it right. (What you cannot play is anything that's "play" a card to reduce Combat damage. It is poison damage. But the secondary powers on most armor will avoid all damage.)
2) Same thing.
3) --
4) --

You're playing it correctly and explaining it correctly. There are different types of damage. Most armor (and bracers of armor) avoid combat damage in some fashion. But a lot will allow you to banish/bury to avoid all damage. There are locations and creatures what will convert combat damage to poison or fire or cold (etc.) damage instead. Be wary of that since it puts you in the same situation. The main modifier to actual combat damage is ranged combat damage. It is still combat damage but there are some armors that give additional protection against that type of combat damage.

Also, when something says that "Damage dealt this way cannot be reduced" means no armor can be used to prevent all damage. Armor can be used to take damage, though.


Situation 1 :
You already explored, so the Bottle won't affect you this turn.
... and I don't see why you should end your turn. You can (providing you have the means to - like blessings or allies) keep on exploring the other cards while the Bottle is displayed. Actually, if you manage to close the location on this very turn, you may even manage to totally avoid any effect from the Bottle.

Situation 2 :
As Choatic said, the golden rule is "card do what card says, card doesn't do what card doesn't say".
If an armor says you can play (reveal, discard, display, bury, banish or...) it to reduce damage, it means any kind of damage.
If an armor says you can play (reveal, discard, display, bury, banish or...) it to reduce poison (or fire, or combat, or ranged, or electricity, or acid or...) damage, it means t works for THAT kind of damage only.
If it is written as poison damage it is not a combat damage, even if dealt by a monster during a "combat".
Sometimes a damage can have a double trait like "ranged combat" damage. In that case an armor would work if preventing at least one of the two types (ranged damage or combat damage).


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

For 1 and 2, see the excellent replies above.

I want to expand on 3 and 4 just to point out a rules subtlety with them that your players may come upon (and subsequently miss) at some point in time, which is the following rule:

WotR Rulebook, p17 wrote:
If you're told to do something with a certain number of cards and there aren't that many cards available, use as many as there are.

So for point #4, you can still do "Discard a card and banish this barrier" even if you have 0 cards left in hand. You are instructed to discard 1 card but you only have 0, so you use as many as there are (0). The end result is that you don't discard anything but still banish the barrier.

There are two exceptions to this rule (also helpfully listed in the same rules sidebar):


  • If you have to remove one or more cards from the blessings deck for any reason and there are not enough cards to do so, the players lose the scenario. See Ending a Scenario, Adventure, or Adventure Path on p17 for more details; notably, the current character immediately ends their turn which includes resetting their hand (and which could cause them to die if they're short on cards).
  • If, for any reason, you are required to remove 1 or more cards from your deck and you don't have enough cards, your character dies. See Dying on p14 for more details on what this entails. Point #3 could trigger this if you're required to bury a card from an empty character deck.


skizzerz wrote:

I want to expand on 3 and 4 just to point out a rules subtlety with them that your players may come upon (and subsequently miss) at some point in time, which is the following rule:

WotR Rulebook, p17 wrote:
If you're told to do something with a certain number of cards and there aren't that many cards available, use as many as there are.

So for point #4, you can still do "Discard a card and banish this barrier" even if you have 0 cards left in hand. You are instructed to discard 1 card but you only have 0, so you use as many as there are (0). The end result is that you don't discard anything but still banish the barrier.

Hmm, I still have my doubts on this, but it does seem I was reading this instruction wrong. Admittedly, it's not every day that you find yourself in the situation where you have no cards to start your turn, but if you did and you rolled a 4, I would have played this that since I couldn't discard a card, I couldn't banish the barrier. But that is because I was reading this more as "Discard a card *to* banish this barrier" as opposed to two separate instructions.

Grand Lodge

I'm going to disagree with skizzerz on Option 4 of the card as well.

I don't read it as two separate instructions but as one condition in order to activate the other. If you have no cards to discard and rolled a 4, you're out of luck. If you were out of cards (in your hand) and rolled a 1 or a 2, then you don't have to worry about taking damage, definitely.


I think Skizzerz is correct. I point to the FAQ entry for Wardstone Legacy:

FAQ for Wardstone Legacy wrote:
On the scenario The Wardstone Legacy, replace "When you play any other blessing and it does not have the Corrupted trait, banish it and replace it with a random blessing that has the Corrupted trait from the box" with "After you play any other blessing, if it does not have the Corrupted trait, exchange it with a random blessing that has the Corrupted trait from the box". (With this wording, if there are no random blessings that have the Corrupted trait left in the box, the instruction becomes impossible, so the Golden Rule tells you to ignore it.)

In the pre-errata version, you were instructed in a single sentence with no commas to banish a card and then replace it with a card with a specific trait. The problem was that you might not have any cards with that specific trait in the box, but you would still have to banish the card, even though the rest of the sentence was impossible.

In order to make the instruction impossible they changed it from banish & replace to exchange. Therefore, if instructed to do X AND Y, doing X & ignoring Y if impossible is valid, as would be doing Y & ignoring X if impossible.

It would be totally different if the card said "Discard a card TO banish this barrier" as X would be required before you could do Y.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Theryon Stormrune wrote:

I'm going to disagree with skizzerz on Option 4 of the card as well.

I don't read it as two separate instructions but as one condition in order to activate the other. If you have no cards to discard and rolled a 4, you're out of luck. If you were out of cards (in your hand) and rolled a 1 or a 2, then you don't have to worry about taking damage, definitely.

Neither are conditions -- the condition for that effect is that you ROLLED A 4 (insert obligatory Elan reference here). You are told to do two things as part of that condition. Neither of those things are impossible so you do not ignore the instruction. As a result, you do both things (discarding as many cards as you have, aka 0, and banishing the barrier).

Grand Lodge

Nice Move Silently check!


Theryon Stormrune wrote:


Also, when something says that "Damage dealt this way cannot be reduced" means no armor can be used to prevent all damage. Armor can be used to take damage, though.

Huh?

Don't armors "take" damage by reducing it? That's pretty much exactly how they are worded.

My understanding that if "damage can't be reduced" you can't reduce it using armor or powers that say "X to reduce damage by/to"


zayzayem wrote:
Theryon Stormrune wrote:


Also, when something says that "Damage dealt this way cannot be reduced" means no armor can be used to prevent all damage. Armor can be used to take damage, though.

Huh?

Don't armors "take" damage by reducing it? That's pretty much exactly how they are worded.

My understanding that if "damage can't be reduced" you can't reduce it using armor or powers that say "X to reduce damage by/to"

I think Theryon is just saying you could discard the armor as damage, like you could discard any card.


HIDE ARMOR wrote:

Recharge this card to reduce Cold or Combat damage dealt to you by 1.

Banish this card to reduce all damage dealt to you to 0; ...

emphasis added.


elcoderdude wrote:
zayzayem wrote:
Theryon Stormrune wrote:


Also, when something says that "Damage dealt this way cannot be reduced" means no armor can be used to prevent all damage. Armor can be used to take damage, though.

Huh?

Don't armors "take" damage by reducing it? That's pretty much exactly how they are worded.

My understanding that if "damage can't be reduced" you can't reduce it using armor or powers that say "X to reduce damage by/to"

I think Theryon is just saying you could discard the armor as damage, like you could discard any card.

Ah. That makes more sense.

Grand Lodge

That's exactly what I meant.

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