Planning Ahead: Looking towards sanctioning of Feast of Dust

[Bristor Gwin]

I know there are several APs in line to get chronicles sheets, but I'm wondering if John might be able to shed light on plans for Feast of Dust. I ask in particular because, since it is a module for 11th lvl PCs, I might not advance one of my characters past 11 if it could be used as a retirement arc (since with EotT and Wardens, there are strict rules about being exactly at 33 xp). I'm wondering if there are plans for Feast of Dust to be an option for a retirement arc, and if so, would the PC start at 11th (30 xp)?

[roysier]

I'm waiting for Daughters of Fury to be sanctioned. I hope this comes soon after.

[BartonOliver]

First, Wardens isn't nearly as restrictive about what level you play at as Eyes. If you want the seeker arc option you can start anywhere between 33-35.5 xp. Otherwise anywhere between 11.0 and 30-37.5 xp works. Or you can even play it campaign mode and apply it to a character.

Second, traditionally October is when a lot of APs, modules, and such are sanctioned due to convention schedules and other factors. I worry however that until there is a new Campaign Coordinator in place it may be further delayed due to the amount of work being done in additional to normal job roles. (I have no information either way, just giving my opinion)

[John Compton]

It is very very likely that Feast of Dust will be sanctioned for organized play. When that happens depends on a number of factors, at least one of which is getting our new global organizer play coordinator in place to free up some of the resources to tackle these projects.

Beyond a bit of office chatter during the adventure's development, I have no exposure to the adventure and cannot speak to its suitability for any special mode of play beyond the standard two options.

[Bristor Gwin]

Thanks for the prompt reply, John.

[Duiker]

It's been a year since any AP volumes were sanctioned, and I believe it's been the same amount of time since any modules were sanctioned. Any time the question comes up on the forums here, there has been a citation of resources being thin or such-and-such convention just around the corner.

It's a piece of paper that someone needs to slap a label on the top of. If the process involves more resources than telling a junior developer/designer/etc to do it by next Friday, then the process needs changed. I understand that the response to this point will be one of needing to balance and analyze what items to put on the sheet. But please understand that in my extended group of players and DMs, none of us care about the items, we never use them. We just like getting chronicle sheets to advance our PFS characters, and for the DMs to get their tables of credit (which we really do value).

Remember Wardens of the Reborn Forge? It was touted as a pseudo-replacement for Eyes of the Ten so that there was something else to play at level 12 with our PFS characters. And we built some characters up ready to play it. And then we set for over a year before it was sanctioned, by which point we didn't bother because that ship had sailed, we'd moved on to other adventures.

The complete lack of commitment to providing something so trivial as chronicle sheets punishes your most loyal customers. Those of us who subscribe to the AP and module lines? We're told that we have to either wait years to play what we are paying a premium to get now, or we play without credit.

I don't mean to be either angry or rude here, it's just that the standard response of "time's tight right now, but we'll sanction [insert item] in a couple of months after [insert event]" is getting really thin. Paizo's published thousands of pages of books since the last one page PDF file sanctioning of something. If there are no resources to do the sanctioning, that's a choice to not give it the minuscule resources it would require.

And that's fine. We will play week in and week out regardless. But just say that's the case instead of stringing us along so that we hold off running adventures or APs that we've been told are being sanctioned just over the horizon.

[roysier]

I would like to add to Duiker, if the issue is directly due to Iron Gods sanctioning I would say skip over Iron Gods for now and for now say it needs further consideration.

Just saying, because there is allot of debate over the amount of tech that should be allowed in PFS but I don't think that should impact all the sanctioning for Mods and AP's after Iron Gods. Come back to Iron Gods and sanction the standard stuff that came after please.

[John Compton]

It's worth noting, Duiker, that I have not specified any timeline for Feast of Dust sanctioning beyond it needing to wait until after a new global organized play coordinator is in place. I understand that being provided a rough timeline that I then fail to meet due to other obligations is frustrating; it's why I'm trying to avoid setting up false expectations.

When the campaign releases Chronicle sheets for a sanctioned adventure product, I want to ensure that the Chronicle sheets do the adventure credit. That means taking the time to understand how the adventure (or the Adventure Path volume) works, what its themes are, and how Linda or I can create rewards that reflect the experience. For linked adventures, I really enjoy providing some common theme that builds if one applies all of the Chronicle sheets to the same character (e.g. the infamy/disrepute mechanic for Skull & Shackles and Plunder & Peril).

It doesn't take nearly as long as it does to develop a scenario, but it's still a substantial time investment. When it's done. my aim is that it's done right.

[Chris Lambertz]

Removed some posts. Not everyone is privy to the goings-on within the Paizo office, and not everyone has the knowledge of how a company like ours works either. We don't expect everyone within our community to have that knowledge. The frustration is understandable, and we're okay with addressing these concerns and criticisms. There's no reason to escalate this conversation.

[pauljathome]

John Compton wrote:

It doesn't take nearly as long as it does to develop a scenario, but it's still a substantial time investment. When it's done. my aim is that it's done right.

I wonder if it would be possible to do it both ways.

A very sparse chronicle sheet is quickly created. No boons. Standardized wealth (as one gets in specials, or perhaps a bit less). No items. That epreally should take minimal effort.

Lets the people who just want to play it NOW do so.

Then, as time allows, the good sheet is produced. Once this is produced, only this can be used going forward.

[John Compton]

pauljathome wrote:

John Compton wrote:

It doesn't take nearly as long as it does to develop a scenario, but it's still a substantial time investment. When it's done. my aim is that it's done right.

I wonder if it would be possible to do it both ways.

A very sparse chronicle sheet is quickly created. No boons. Standardized wealth (as one gets in specials, or perhaps a bit less). No items. That epreally should take minimal effort.

Lets the people who just want to play it NOW do so.

Then, as time allows, the good sheet is produced. Once this is produced, only this can be used going forward.

My initial concern is that those who played it during "Phase 1" would then want to receive the benefits of the "Phase 2" Chronicle sheets once they're released—regardless of what I advised when the bare-bones version came out. Those in the process of playing through using the Phase 1 rules would be confused as to what it means if Phase 2 is released while they're partway through the adventure.

[pauljathome]

John Compton wrote:

Those in the process of playing through using the Phase 1 rules would be confused as to what it means if Phase 2 is released while they're partway through the adventure.

That is very valid for an Adventure Path. As far as I can recall, though, all modules are sanctioned in their entirety. So for a module the issue doesn't arise. The chronicle sheet gained is the one present when the module is finished.

But it does open things up to one form of abuse/cheating. Playvtodsy, wait 6 months to report the game

[Duiker]

John Compton wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

John Compton wrote:

It doesn't take nearly as long as it does to develop a scenario, but it's still a substantial time investment. When it's done. my aim is that it's done right.

I wonder if it would be possible to do it both ways.

A very sparse chronicle sheet is quickly created. No boons. Standardized wealth (as one gets in specials, or perhaps a bit less). No items. That epreally should take minimal effort.

Lets the people who just want to play it NOW do so.

Then, as time allows, the good sheet is produced. Once this is produced, only this can be used going forward.

My initial concern is that those who played it during "Phase 1" would then want to receive the benefits of the "Phase 2" Chronicle sheets once they're released—regardless of what I advised when the bare-bones version came out. Those in the process of playing through using the Phase 1 rules would be confused as to what it means if Phase 2 is released while they're partway through the adventure.

I can understand that concern, but maybe a solution lies in distinguishing between campaign mode and strict PFS mode and having different sheets for them. From my experience (and I know my experience is anecdotal and not data in and of itself), my groups have always run in campaign mode anyway, which is likely why the items on the chronicle sheets are less important to us than they are to others. So post more or less blank chronicle sheets for campaign mode, and then take the time to do detailed ones with detailed instructions for the strict PFS mode.

Then those of us who do just want to get PFS credit for campaign mode as we're running APs and modules as they're published can then report the tables and we take the "lesser" chronicle sheets as a trade off.

Another problem that wraps up in this is the fact that you can't report tables retroactively. I understand the logic of that for PFS mode, but makes less sense for campaign mode. I have about 20 tables of credit that can never be reported (and my players never get credit for) because of things like running Iron Gods as it came out. My running of that AP would not have changed based on the PFS specific rules for it on the chronicle sheets that haven't been released, because we still would have played it in campaign mode.

[UndeadMitch]

pauljathome wrote:

John Compton wrote:

It doesn't take nearly as long as it does to develop a scenario, but it's still a substantial time investment. When it's done. my aim is that it's done right.

I wonder if it would be possible to do it both ways.

A very sparse chronicle sheet is quickly created. No boons. Standardized wealth (as one gets in specials, or perhaps a bit less). No items. That epreally should take minimal effort.

Lets the people who just want to play it NOW do so.

Then, as time allows, the good sheet is produced. Once this is produced, only this can be used going forward.

I've got to say that I'm not in support of this. I would rather wait longer and see it done right th first time rather than have to have a slapdash job done now and then also make them go back and revisit it, if they get the chance.

I can sympathize with people that are waiting for Iron Gods, Giantslayer, and Daughters of Fury (see some of the threads on Wardens). However, right now it probably won't happen very soon, and considering how much John has on his plate until we get a new Campaign Coordinator, I'm not very worried when it gets done.

[kinevon]

pauljathome wrote:

John Compton wrote:

Those in the process of playing through using the Phase 1 rules would be confused as to what it means if Phase 2 is released while they're partway through the adventure.

That is very valid for an Adventure Path. As far as I can recall, though, all modules are sanctioned in their entirety. So for a module the issue doesn't arise. The chronicle sheet gained is the one present when the module is finished.

But it does open things up to one form of abuse/cheating. Playvtodsy, wait 6 months to report the game

For new modules, it still arises. For the old, 32 page modules, it was one and done. For new, 64 page modules, it has varied in the number of chronicles, and whether there was a bonus chronicle available.

Remember that the new modules also cover multiple levels, from 4-7 or so, as far as I have seen. And, for example, in Dragon's Demand, IIRC, not all the content was actually sanctioned for use in PFS mode.

[Nefreet]

I'm betting John facepalmed earlier while reading this thread.

For years people complained that the items on Chronicle Sheets needed to be diversified, and unique boons/items needed to be offered, in order to make sheets more interesting than just "3xp, 4pp, ____gp".

And here in this thread we have ppl that only care about those 3 things.

Just goes further to show that you can't please everyone.

[Ascalaphus]

I do want my shiny bells and whistles Iron Gods chronicle sheets. Not some bare bones disappointment. From what I've gleaned about other APs it's worth waiting for.

However, "resources are tight right now" has been the argument for so long that it's starting to look like Paizo has a structural problem there. It seems like by the time the backlog from last year's Con season is under control, everything has to go on the back burner because this year's Con season is nigh.

[BigNorseWolf]

Nefreet wrote:

I'm betting John facepalmed earlier while reading this thread.

For years people complained that the items on Chronicle Sheets needed to be diversified, and unique boons/items needed to be offered, in order to make sheets more interesting than just "3xp, 4pp, ____gp".

And here in this thread we have ppl that only care about those 3 things.

Just goes further to show that you can't please everyone.

I don't think it matters nearly as much for a level 11 who will have far less chance to use it

[Nefreet]

I beg to differ.

My level 11s eat up things like "Wand of Restoration, 3 charges" and "+1 to Knowledge (History)".

If anything, high level characters can afford the weird stuff finally.

[Pirate Rob]

Ascalaphus wrote:

However, "resources are tight right now" has been the argument for so long that it's starting to look like Paizo has a structural problem there. It seems like by the time the backlog from last year's Con season is under control, everything has to go on the back burner because this year's Con season is nigh.

It's totally been a problem for a long time. Paizo's been working on it, slower than many of us would have liked, but once upon a time...

PFS has a campaign coordinator.
Then they added a full time developer.
Then they added an assistant developer.

I have high hopes for content once we get our developer back from having to do double duty as the campaign coordinator as well.

Of course I could be wrong and I doubt module/AP sanctioning will ever be super timely, but it does seem particularly bad at the moment.

[Andrew Christian]

Ascalaphus wrote:

I do want my shiny bells and whistles Iron Gods chronicle sheets. Not some bare bones disappointment. From what I've gleaned about other APs it's worth waiting for.

However, "resources are tight right now" has been the argument for so long that it's starting to look like Paizo has a structural problem there. It seems like by the time the backlog from last year's Con season is under control, everything has to go on the back burner because this year's Con season is nigh.

I think, though, that this year is specifically different, in that John's duties have doubled until a new Campaign Coordinator is hired. That's not so much a structural problem, as a problem any company would face when losing someone so integral like Mike Brock was.

[Ascalaphus]

@Andrew: the thing is, even while Mike was there, we got the "resources are tight" reason. Now it's worse.

[Jessex]

Every game company always gives the resources are tight excuse. Probably because resource at all game companies really are tight. The hobby is small as industries go and these companies are small with limited resources.

Paizo produces far better, more and higher quality RPG products than any company ever has before so complaining about the pace at which they produce supplementary material strikes me as people who truly do not understand how lucky they are.

[RoshVagari]

Now, now, Paizo DOES have GenCon 2025 to prep for. So, we should be grateful we get anything by 2030.

Freakin' Palladium levels of excuses going on around here from the poohbas at Paizo...sheesh.

[tchrman35]

It might bear keeping in mind that folks are basically asking for something for free. Players very rarely pay to purchase a module - only GM's. If every GM purchased the module, that's still 7 chronicles that go out for it. So the basic math is "Divide the clamor by 7, multiply by the sale price, and there's our expected return." Subtract 1/3 of that for folks who had already purchased the module, and you get closer. But THAT doesn't take into account how rampant and easy piracy is. For every Paizo product I just tried, I can do a simple web search for <product name> pdf and find a few download options. So some loss has to be accounted for as well.

It's also important to note that, based on current rules for running a table, a GM can run a table using a borrowed copy of the scenario or module. I don't think ANYONE wants that to change, nor can I imagine a simple way to change that. It's hard enough for us to recruit GMs at our local lodge without saying, "Oh, and every time you volunteer to GM you're going to spend $3.99." If someone who owned it couldn't lend it out, we'd be toast.

Scenarios and Modules are loss leaders. The money to be made is in selling hardbacks. The best way to sell more hardbacks is to recruit more players. So developing chronicle sheets for existing modules simply can't compete with attending conventions, creating exciting scenarios, and developing new ways to draw in new players.

Can any of you show a means by which sanctioning modules and AP's for organized play will drive profit in the same way that recruiting new players will? Yes, it's important to take care of your base. Yes, Paizo understands that, which is why we DO get sanctioned modules and AP's. But without new players, there ARE no resources for the base. So I understand why Paizo spends more time and money preparing for conferences, putting out bread-and-butter scenarios, and making the story arc interesting in the standard PFS Scenario line. That's where they NEED to spend their money.

You're all snarling as the hand holding the food comes by. Please don't bite it. I like the food.

*Edit: I just re-read the post that said some posts were removed. It cites people not knowing/understanding the inner-workings of the business. If I'm rehashing something that's been removed, I apologize. (I only just came to the thread.) Feel free to remove if that's the case.

[pauljathome]

tchrman35 wrote:

It might bear keeping in mind that folks are basically asking for something for free.

Uh, people are asking them to sanction products that are already printed. The ONLY question from a pure profit/loss point of view at this time is whether the extra sales to GMs running solely for PFS is sufficiently greater than the cost of creating a chronicle to be worth Paizo's investment. And that is a non zero set of sales. ALL the costs for producing the product have already been spent.

I've no idea how big the extra sales are but they are non zero. Paizo probably has a reasonable idea since they have data showing how sales spike around chronicles being released.

That is totally ignoring the more intangible benefits of supporting PFS in the first place. Which are obviously considered fairy substantial by Paizo since they DO support PFS a LOT.

[Kyrie Ebonblade,]

pauljathome wrote:

tchrman35 wrote:

It might bear keeping in mind that folks are basically asking for something for free.

Uh, people are asking them to sanction products that are already printed. The ONLY question from a pure profit/loss point of view at this time is whether the extra sales to GMs running solely for PFS is sufficiently greater than the cost of creating a chronicle to be worth Paizo's investment. And that is a non zero set of sales. ALL the costs for producing the product have already been spent.

I've no idea how big the extra sales are but they are non zero. Paizo probably has a reasonable idea since they have data showing how sales spike around chronicles being released.

That is totally ignoring the more intangible benefits of supporting PFS in the first place. Which are obviously considered fairy substantial by Paizo since they DO support PFS a LOT.

Okay, let's see what was on Johns plate this summer from oh..June on:

-Set up for GenCon
-Errata changes for Ultimate Combat and FAQ updates
-Help out with input for the Two SPECIALS and two EXCLUSIVES (editing and Post PaizoCon tweaks)
-Setting up the final version of Season 7s Organized Play Guide
-Coordinating the additional Reasources updates for June, July, August and September product releases (that is what like FIFTEEN books?
-Reply to as many as Two DOZEN+ questions a week on the boards
-Help Mike Brock set up a passdown for the (Still as yet hired) Campaign Coordinator.
-Fill in for Mike for things very immediate (can you say ConSupport?)
-Planout and Coordinate Season 7 Releases. (I like them coming out on time)
-Giving input to VCs, VLs, Con Coordinators, and folks trying to organize and such.
-Pathfinder Card Guild Stuff
-Vigilante Playtest?
-Eat, Sleep, see family and loved ones (to stay sane and healthy)
-Dozens of things you and I do NOT know about because they aren't mentioned here.

All in all, as much as I'd like AP sanctioning (and Reasources) getting updated, I have learned a few things when I had to do my own 90+ paper for school. Editing and being an editor sucks. John is literally everywhere and in everything PFS related and damn near everywhere where the words 'pathfinder' is printed at Paizo.

Truth be told, John is doing an awesome job since he joined Paizo and I dearly hope he gets to pass on the Coordinator hat before HE burns out.

Bravo Zulo Mr Compton. Keep up the good work.

FYI. This doesn't include the fact that john MIGHT have to be looking over stuff still MONTHS away from release

[Nefreet]

For those looking to discuss profit, loss, and the price of PDFs, feel free to comment in THIS thread.

Last time I checked the poll respondents were voting 33 to 7 in favor of paying more money for more content.

[Paz]

Nefreet wrote:

Last time I checked the poll respondents were voting 33 to 7 in favor of paying more money for more content.

Given the small number and self-selecting nature of the respondents, I would caution against giving too much weight to this poll.

[Paz]

tchrman35 wrote:

Can any of you show a means by which sanctioning modules and APs for organized play will drive profit in the same way that recruiting new players will?

At least part of the reason I maintain my subscriptions is the knowledge that I'll be able to use a lot of the material in PFS-sanctioned games, because that's what a good portion of players want.

Knowing that nothing from the AP/module lines would ever be sanctioned would make me more likely to drop them completely.

[pauljathome]

Thomas Graham wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

tchrman35 wrote:

It might bear keeping in mind that folks are basically asking for something for free.

Uh, people are asking them to sanction products that are already printed.

Truth be told, John is doing an awesome job since he joined Paizo and I dearly hope he gets to pass on the Coordinator hat before HE burns out

The fact that you quoted me for this makes me think that I may have been unclear.

I was not intending to cast aspersions at Paizo, John or Mike. I don't know the factors that cause them to prioritize their activities in the way that they do. I am absolutely certain that they have more on their plate than they have time to do.

All that I was intending to do was to point out that the people asking for sanctioning are NOT asking for charity. They are customers making reasonable requests of a company. Sanctioning is a low cost activity that will cause at least some extra sales (sales to me, for example).

It is perfectly possible for reasonable customers to make reasonable requests that a company reasonably rejects.

[Ascalaphus]

I think "yeah, but it's free, so you can't complain" is a bad argument. It can be used to kill any sensible discussion.

The problem as I see is is that Paizo's having trouble reconciling ambitions and resources. Their ambition is to do (among many other things) sanction modules and APs within a reasonable timeframe. But this has been postponed quite a lot because of lack of resources. So often that it's looking less like a bunch of incidents and more like a structurally insufficient amount of resources.

So at some point either Paizo has to admit that it's ambitions are beyond its means, or it has to allocate more resources to those ambitions.

I think that the current situation is starting to look like Paizo's in denial about the feasibility of its ambitions. By suggesting it can and will do certain things, and then not meeting those expectations, it causes bad blood.

We've seen this with all kinds of things; sanctioning, but also FAQs, proofing on new books, errataing books - Paizo would like to do all the best things, which is commendable. But it can't do everything it wants, so it ends up raising expectations and then disappointing.

[Nefreet]

Paz wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

Last time I checked the poll respondents were voting 33 to 7 in favor of paying more money for more content.

Given the small number and self-selecting nature of the respondents, I would caution against giving too much weight to this poll.

Though as the creator of that poll, I encourage as many people as possible to participate in it ^^.

[Kyrie Ebonblade,]

pauljathome wrote:

Thomas Graham wrote:

pauljathome wrote:

tchrman35 wrote:

It might bear keeping in mind that folks are basically asking for something for free.

Uh, people are asking them to sanction products that are already printed.

Truth be told, John is doing an awesome job since he joined Paizo and I dearly hope he gets to pass on the Coordinator hat before HE burns out

The fact that you quoted me for this makes me think that I may have been unclear.

I was not intending to cast aspersions at Paizo, John or Mike. I don't know the factors that cause them to prioritize their activities in the way that they do. I am absolutely certain that they have more on their plate than they have time to do.

All that I was intending to do was to point out that the people asking for sanctioning are NOT asking for charity. They are customers making reasonable requests of a company. Sanctioning is a low cost activity that will cause at least some extra sales (sales to me, for example).

It is perfectly possible for reasonable customers to make reasonable requests that a company reasonably rejects.

Sorry.. meant to add in that I agreed for the most part

[captain yesterday]

Paizo is still a small company, so maybe you guys should cut them a little slack:-)

[UndeadMitch]

captain yesterday wrote:

Paizo is still a small company, so maybe you guys should cut them a little slack:-)

That excuse doesn't really hold all that much water, when you consider how much stuff they release each month.

Off the top of my head, stuff Paizo releases each month:

One chapter of an AP
One Player Companinon or Campaign Setting
One flipmat or map pack
Two classic flipmats (for the time being, though I don't know how long they'll keep up the classics)
Two PFS scenarios
One PACG base set or expansion pack
One PACG class deck
PFS PACG scenarios

And that is in addition to the other products that come out quarterly or twice a year like hardcovers, pawn sets, modules, and probably more. They have expanded their brand into a number of licensed product; a line of minis produced by Wizkids, a line of comics, various apparel items (shirts, bags, and more), novels, an MMO, the line of audio dramatizations of AP's, Pathfinder branded dice from Q-Workshop, and more that I can't think of right now. Oh, and they also have their very own convention that people travel from across the country to attend.

It feels to me that Paizo is kind of at a crossroads, they have the mentality of a small company, but the amount that they keep expanding their line just doesn't seem to track, to me at least.

And don't mistake this for me trying to bash Paizo or give them grief, I greatly enjoy the products they put out and I support the company. But I do think that people seem to give them an endless pass because "Dude, it's Paizo" or "Don't bite the hand that feeds".

[Qstor]

captain yesterday wrote:

Paizo is still a small company, so maybe you guys should cut them a little slack:-)

What he said.

[Ascalaphus]

@Qstor: it's because we want Paizo to succeed that we worry when it looks like it's structurally overextended.

[Kigvan]

UndeadMitch wrote:

Oh, and they also have their very own convention that people travel from across the country to attend.

Not to completely disagree with you, but I would like to point out that PaizoCon was a fan created convention originally.

I generally see both sides of this, I think right now without an official campaign coordinator the idea of having too much other stuff on the plate seems to fit quite well the reality.

It is honestly quite impressive that things like Additional Resources and Season 7 scenarios haven't been delayed by the amount of work on John's shoulders at this time.

[Qstor]

Ascalaphus wrote:

@Qstor: it's because we want Paizo to succeed that we worry when it looks like it's structurally overextended.

Well Tonya's in place now so maybe in the next 2 weeks or so we can see what happens...

Personally, I'd like to see the APG pre-gens and another AP get sanctioned.