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Martial/Caster disparity is real. I've seen it. (youtube link)It is not because they think there isn't oneActually, they DO think that there isn't one, with a rather strong added claim.
Q: What do you think of caster/martial disparity at higher levels?
A: I think it's a myth propagated by people with agendas.
Which essentially sums up the entire issue quite nicely.
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The people arguing for change are arguing objective mechanical issues.
If you can't argue those you are wasting everyone's time.
There is no such thing as objective mechanical issues in the context of a traditional role-playing game. Any argument based solely around "the rules with no context" is completely invalidated.
You can only argue "objective mechanical issues" with a video game where there isn't a subjective overlord in charge of everything.
I know because all of these "objective mechanical issues" go away the second the Wizard has a sleepless night. These "objective mechanical issues" go away the second the party is on the run and doesn't have time to spend an hour in the morning and has to go, immediately. These "objective mechanical issues" go away the second the party has to travel overnight and doesn't have time for 8 hours of sleep.
All things that happen in the genre, and are fairly common, but yet nobody in the "objective mechanical issues" arena take them into account.
Edit:
To add... This is also why Paizo's own devs said they are more interested in actual game events than theory crafting in this manner. Because "objective theory crafting" is an invalid approach to a tabletop RPG.
Video games are completely arbitrary, there is no GM bias. Either your class can do what it needs to do, or it can't. There's no nerfage. It is COMPLETELY NEUTRAL, and so highlights imbalances most readily.
GM makes artificially contrived solution. Mage takes steps to not need it (teleport is good at that).
Oh, can't rest. Ring of Sustenance. Not a problem. You can be towed along on a floating disk and get your rest, and not worry about an ambush.
If these artificial and contrived situations are thrown at a caster, he can overcome them with minimal time and effort. Because the tools are there for them to do that.
"Must get moving now" is only an issue for low level parties. For higher level parties, it's "You start heading along the route while I enjoy my feather bed. When I'm up and fully equipped with spells, I will Scry you and teleport to your location. Go!"
Your artificial time constraint loses all power.
Furthermore, you're attempting to twist this into "you're not supporting the fighter, as you are supposed to." He's SUPPOSED to do nothing. Operating as a team does not mean covering the fighter's faults, as well as covering his own. That's the fighter's job. And the skilled wizard has far more tools at his disposal for overshadowing the fighter, then the fighter does in reverse.
If you haven't seen this, then you haven't seen someone play a competent wizard. You've seen someone hold back so the rest of the party can have fun, which is a completely separate topic.
Paizo's own devs have duplicated your words, but here's a caveat...they have also asked people who were disrupting the game and overshadowing others with their actions to leave.
All of these people they've mentioned were playing spellcasters. In the interests of having fun, they did so. But it spoke volumes to me about 'eyes wide shut'.
And btw, having Crafting feats does effectively double your WBL...that is what the feat is supposed to DO. ANd a caster with double WBL can easily, easily overshadow any melee. All he has to do is move his attitude from "I buff the one guy swinging the sword" to "I take out members of the opposing team right now." Which IS supporting the team completely.
It just makes the melee useless, since that's the only thing he can basically do for the team, also.
==Aelryinth
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No, Conan routinely kills casters who get within his reach. Very rarely does he need special tools. At least in the original Howard stories.In most high fantasy settings aren't magic users>>>>mundane people at pretty much everything, including fighting?
Isn't it similar in Swords and Sorcery as well? Conan certainly wasn't a match for most casters in a straight up fight. Most of the times he tried to directly take on a magic user without the element of surprise, a maguffin or outside aid from other magic users he lost, miserably. In fact, what I would say characterizes S&S magic users is that they are incredibly powerful but so arrogant that they bring about their own downfall through sheer stupidity. "Normal" people (read:heroic mundanes) can sometimes defeat them by exploiting their bad life choices. This isn't really appropriate in an RPG, where wizards are piloted by genre savvy players who feel no compulsion to hold the Hero/Villain Ball for the sake of the narrative, and neither is the GM's BBEG for that matter.
Conan routinely goes up against higher-level casters who are hundreds of years older then he is. Typically he will indeed lose to these guys on their terms without special help. Standard, this is in the area of 'will saves'.
Once that little problem is addressed, he usually reaves them and their summoned servants like anything else.
The reason that you see high level mages as enemies is because high level mages kill tons of lower level guys with AoE's. that makes them fearsome to populations, and perfect for individual powers being able to be tyrants regardless of what anyone else wants. The will of the one outweighs the will of the many.
Fighters, on the other hand, need loyal followers and armies to subjugate populations. It's a question of individual power vs mass power. The will of the one is a reflection and leadership of the will of the many.
It does not mean the high level mage can kill the high level melee. It means the high level mage can nuke his city and run home, and the high level melee can relentlessly carve his way through the mage's laboriously set defenses and kill him...which is what happens in the novels.
Without individual melee power, wizards tend to be incredibly weak on a personal basis. If you give them room and time, they are devastating. Melees specialize in NOT giving them room and time.
Wizards are BBEG's because of their individual power and many tools at their disposal, as well as because, well, magic letting them do fantastic things. Melees are the heroes because, in spite of all them fantastic things, mages cannot stop them without significant level gaps, lack of defenses on the fighter's part, or lots of time to prepare.
==Aelryinth
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No, Conan routinely kills casters who get within his reach. Very rarely does he need special tools. At least in the original Howard stories.In most high fantasy settings aren't magic users>>>>mundane people at pretty much everything, including fighting?
Isn't it similar in Swords and Sorcery as well? Conan certainly wasn't a match for most casters in a straight up fight. Most of the times he tried to directly take on a magic user without the element of surprise, a maguffin or outside aid from other magic users he lost, miserably. In fact, what I would say characterizes S&S magic users is that they are incredibly powerful but so arrogant that they bring about their own downfall through sheer stupidity. "Normal" people (read:heroic mundanes) can sometimes defeat them by exploiting their bad life choices. This isn't really appropriate in an RPG, where wizards are piloted by genre savvy players who feel no compulsion to hold the Hero/Villain Ball for the sake of the narrative, and neither is the GM's BBEG for that matter.
Conan routinely goes up against higher-level casters who are hundreds of years older then he is. Typically he will indeed lose to these guys on their terms without special help. Standard, this is in the area of 'will saves'.
Once that little problem is addressed, he usually reaves them and their summoned servants like anything else.
The reason that you see high level mages as enemies is because high level mages kill tons of lower level guys with AoE's. that makes them fearsome to populations, and perfect for individual powers being able to be tyrants regardless of what anyone else wants. The will of the one outweighs the will of the many.
Fighters, on the other hand, need loyal followers and armies to subjugate populations. It's a question of individual power vs mass power. The will of the one is a reflection and leadership of the will of the many.
It does not mean the high level mage can kill the high level...
Except in PF the wizard has none of those supposed weakenesses, the martial has none of the supposed strengths, and Clone turns you into a bad.issue of Fantastic 4... "Oh no! It was only a Doombot!"
Back in AD&D Mages started out weaker and grew in power and fighters were always solid. That generated a difference in pure power, but it was much smaller than today. Mages had real weaknesses besides their power and fighters could pull their weight in and out of combat.
Back then there was no reason to compare yourself to others because the classes were near enough. At least that was my impression.
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Again, the problem becomes having to go to that well once too often. One game/part of an AP where all magic is blocked? Ok, sure. Two? Three? Ten?
After a while there are players that will tire of that scenario and balk that there is only one way to eliminate a certain foe or wonder aloud why magic seems to fail them quite so often.
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It is not because they think there isn't oneActually, they DO think that there isn't one, with a rather strong added claim.
Q: What do you think of caster/martial disparity at higher levels?
A: I think it's a myth propagated by people with agendas.
I wonder if the martial/caster conspiracy is related to the one about fluoridation of water. Maybe disparity believers are trying to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids?
Speaking personally, I have never been [or witnessed anyone being] angry with another player whose character 'didn't pull their weight.' I have been disappointed, sometimes I've even been downright depressed because I lost a precious character I had poured my heart into, but there was no anger.
Yeah, most of the time I see someone getting angry or upset about a character not pulling their weight, it's player running that character. A lot of players get frustrated when their fighter is constantly getting dominated or trapped in pits, and only does half as much damage as anyone else in the party when he actually does get to attack.
Or,
-Binds a massive bad-ass outsider.
-Possesses said outsider with magic jar / marionette.
-Greater angelic aspect because why not?
-Polymorphs with Giantform II
-Transformation.
We now have a Angelic Giant Outsider thing with massive physical stats and full bab. I think that's legal I don't think any of the spells conflict
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I'll play devil's advocate a bit in favor of martial BBEG. Its a partial argument since there were circumstances and GM fiat involved.
Scenario 1:
I GMed a party consisting of a conjuration Wizard, combat Cleric, shadow Oracle and vanilla Ranger. The Ranger was badly made enough to be considered a non-factor by any standard, most damage came from the Cleric. As a whole the party was pretty weak and did zero preparation but learned enough to rely on some go-to spells to handle situations.
I had a few mini bosses thrown at them. One was a 'tank Barbarian' that had all his mental stats dumped in favor of physical ones. It was a single combatant so I thought he wouldn't last too long. he wound up devastating the entire party by first grappling the wizard and nearly one shotted everyone else. Eventually due to GM fiat I asked for wisdom checks for advice on how to deal with him and they wound up tricking him into running off a nearby cliff. If not for interfering and just kind of letting them win at least one of them would have died. The NPC survived the cliff and unfortunately landed in a pit of ghouls so he later came back with an undead template but the party ran away from him and the campaign ended without him being seen again.
There was another situation where I used two Tetori Monks. Like last time one of them quickly grappled the caster and the next turn knocked him out and wrecked the rest of the party in a quick fashion, mostly grappling to stop casting but one of the monks readied thrown weapons to disrupt casting. The party was knocked out fast so I pulled the stupid villain trope of leaving them to get killed by something else, which they survived.
Lesson I learned: Casting takes a lot of thought to actually pull off correctly. The wizard was a min-maxer and was also a wizard so got targeted first. Without anyone to properly defend him he was good as dead unless he had a chance to cast the right kind of spell. Basically if the caster is inexperienced or spends no time preparing then martial/caster disparity doesn't exist.
I also learned that grappling and readying actions against casting is brutal and that using spells for combat abilities is useless if you get jumped.
Scenario 2:
Had a BBEG that was a fighter with a lead coating template. He focused on dealing huge called shots trying to provoke debilitating blows. He had some henchmen but they were mostly damage dealers, a Witch casting cold spells exclusively and a combat alchemist with two beast men cohorts. Because of the dumb attack patterns of the Alchemist and Witch the fighter was the most devastating.
He was up against a Two handed weapon vanilla Bloodrager, a snake style dirty trick fighter, vanilla Wizard, a vanilla Cleric, and a Psychic Warrior.
Of course the Wizard went down first with a called shot before being confronted by the Bloodrager and Cleric. The Cleric was pre buffed so they were able to fend off the Big Bad. The rest of the party killed off the beast men and fended off the Alchemist trying to get to the witch But the witch mostly retreated by flying. The environment was on an airship that they sabotaged so turbulence wrecked anyone who wouldn't fly or had a low CMD. Eventually someone blew up the floor and the Alchemist and Witch flew away and the Fighter fell (and survived). Ended up chasing down the big bad in the woods and because they ran out of spells and the Alchemist had a bunch of humoculi disrupting anyone in the sky. I make fighters with a lot of INT and emphasis on knowledge engineering so I had the big bad make simple traps to fight them off and he had a third party feat that granted him a lot of movement to guerrilla them down, taking every opportunity to call shot. Campaign fell apart due to before the situation could be resolved.
Lesson I learned: Casters can go down fast. Really fast. Against one Lvl=APL+4 Fighter they need to run a lot of interferences and summons to keep their casters from dying but did way better prepared than in an ambush. The Cleric was the worst at this since they had more reason to buff before getting involved with a character that could potentially cripple them for life in one round.
I also learned that third party combat feats are greater than Paizo combat feats, especially when they enable Paizo combat feats. If the fighter didn't have his movement feats the situation would have been very different. This convinced the martials in the party to want to take third party combat feats that I offer in the future.
Also Called Shots are a nightmare to deal with. One shot can potentially take a character out of the game for a few rounds if not cripple them for life.
Also I became convinced of one point: I feel like casters get a lot of spells and power due to them needing to be big bads. Some spells are powerful to the point where in normal fantasy fiction I'd expect it to be a spell that takes months of preparation, study and your first born child, not thrown out as a standard action on a daily basis. If I were to rewrite the game some spells would be relegated to artifacts, rituals or templates, things that are more under the GMs control to give out rather than a natural part of spell lists.
Scenario 3:
Forgot all the details but it was an all caster situation except the Summoner's Eidolon. I think the party was Druid, Witch, Sorcerer, Summoner. The encountered Big Bad was a Hobgoblin Fighter with a phalanx full of teamwork feats. The party had already encountered wights and were running out of spells because summoning was very badly paired against many small battles that are far between. One spell can handle a group of monsters and this made them cocky and move ahead until they got to the Hobgoblins. The Hobgoblin archers had thunderstone arrows that they kept firing each time someone tried to cast a spell and the phalanx itself quickly killed the eidolon. The general was close in and nearly killed two of the casters before they got away and nearly died from random wights and a swarm. Eventually they prepared better and started to scry and fry killing the general.
Lessons I learned: Don't cast spells when you're outnumbered and there are ranged attackers. Casting from any kind of distance or protection is way better than trying to cast on the spot. Preparation of any sort makes magic exponentially better.
Also, tower shields are great in groups.
That's the main reason Fickle Winds is my bestest friend ever.
It would have been difficult to get off in a lot of those situations, but if he did manage it then it's a beautiful safety net.
Maybe drop prone behind a tree for +8 AC and a possible miss chance before casting fickle winds?
Definitely a good choice for Contigency, and possibly getting as a wand.
Emergency Force Sphere is also a beautiful spell.
Emergency Force Sphere is also a beautiful spell.
I banned that spell. It's
1. Not from a core book, which isn't normally a bannable offense in my games. I just find that non-core spells are often either stupid good or useless.
2. It removes one of the biggest weaknesses used to balance casters.
Eldritch Scrapper with NNanite Bloodline amd EH to get Orc bloodline.
That actually works pretty well as a combantant. Getting duration buffs for your transmutation buffs is nice. Also, the first level nanite ability is boss...
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It is not because they think there isn't oneActually, they DO think that there isn't one, with a rather strong added claim.
Q: What do you think of caster/martial disparity at higher levels?
A: I think it's a myth propagated by people with agendas.
I'm happy to say that JJ's opinion is not entirely representative for Paizo. Here's a few snippets from an excellent interview SKR did a while back. Note that the interview took place after he left the Pathfinder Design Team.
SKR's take on the Martial/Caster disparity. He has an interesting perspective. :)
A little bit later he talks about vancian casting/limited casting v "always-on" classes like the fighter - also worth listening to.
Finally, he talks about some of Paizo's experiences with high high-level games. This was eyeopening for me.
SKRs opinions aside, it's fairly obvious that despite not acknowledging it openly, Paizo are trying to ease the gap between martials and casters. Consider Pathfinder Unchained:
It buffed (or in one case, attempted to buff) the monk, rogue and fighter - the first two by simply throwing out the old classes and writing new ones, the fighter via Stamina and Combat Tricks. The monk, rogue and fighter are all primarily martial/mundane classes that are frequently lambasted as being lackluster.
In comparison they beat the crap out of the summoner, making it a far less powerful class. JB's even on record calling the original summoner "the most broken thing in the game".
The Revised Action Economy features a host of options that make martials and mundanes have an easier time while casters comparably struggle. For example in the revised action economy Spell + Quicken Spell eats the wizard's entire round, while the fighter can take a move action and still make two of his three attacks - at level 1.
Dynamic Magic Item Creation makes solo crafting much more difficult and puts an extra value on skills. Removing the option to T10 on crafting checks in particular makes crafting much less attractive.
Wild Magic, Mandatory Esoteric Components, and Limited Magic, while in my opinion flawed rules, can be combined to absolutely annihilate the potential of the spellcasting classes.
Automatic Bonus Progression tries to standardize the magic item progression, which benefits the classes that rely on finding specific gear rather than making it.
Looking further back, compare the Fighter and ACG's Slayer. The slayer has the same hit die and BAB progression as the fighter, a strong fortitude AND reflex save, six skill points per level rather than two, gains one bonus fat less than the fighter in 10 levels (and doesn't have to meet prerequisites for 3 of them), and gains a combat buff that is both useful in social situations and doesn't limit him to specific weapons. Is there any doubt whatsoever that Paizo are no longer using the fighter as a baseline for class balance?
Emergency Force Sphere is also a beautiful spell.I banned that spell. It's
1. Not from a core book, which isn't normally a bannable offense in my games. I just find that non-core spells are often either stupid good or useless.
2. It removes one of the biggest weaknesses used to balance casters.
5 ft step then Dimension Door...
Or
Dimensional Slide
Or
Shift...
Or
Shadow Bloodline ability to swap spots with people...
Or
5ft step vanish...
It is not because they think there isn't oneActually, they DO think that there isn't one, with a rather strong added claim.
Q: What do you think of caster/martial disparity at higher levels?
A: I think it's a myth propagated by people with agendas.
I'm happy to say that JJ's opinion is not entirely representative for Paizo. Here's a few snippets from an excellent interview SKR did a while back. Note that the interview took place after he left the Pathfinder Design Team.
SKR's take on the Martial/Caster disparity. He has an interesting perspective. :)
A little bit later he talks about vancian casting/limited casting v "always-on" classes like the fighter - also worth listening to.
Finally, he talks about some of Paizo's experiences with high high-level games. This was eyeopening for me.
SKRs opinions aside, it's fairly obvious that despite not acknowledging it openly, Paizo are trying to ease the gap between martials and casters. Consider Pathfinder Unchained:
It buffed (or in one case, attempted to buff) the monk, rogue and fighter - the first two by simply throwing out the old classes and writing new ones, the fighter via Stamina and Combat Tricks. The monk, rogue and fighter are all primarily martial/mundane classes that are frequently lambasted as being lackluster.
In comparison they beat the crap out of the summoner, making it a far less powerful class. JB's even on record calling the original summoner "the most broken thing in the game".
The Revised Action Economy features a host of options that make martials and mundanes have an easier time while casters comparably struggle. For example in the revised action economy Spell + Quicken...
Oh hey I'd been wondering if that video was ever saved.
Emergency Force Sphere is also a beautiful spell.I banned that spell. It's
1. Not from a core book, which isn't normally a bannable offense in my games. I just find that non-core spells are often either stupid good or useless.
2. It removes one of the biggest weaknesses used to balance casters.
5 ft step then Dimension Door...
Or
Dimensional Slide
Or
Shift...
Or
Shadow Bloodline ability to swap spots with people...
Or
5ft step vanish...
In all those situations a readied arrow/bullet will still hit and give you a relatively tough Conc check.
Also in most of those situations the feat step up, or sufficient reach will still keep you within melee range.
Lastly EFS can be used to stop a pouncing Barbarian, while none of what you listed would have any effect.
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Honestly this feel like the stupidity of comics...
Silver age Superman (aka wizard) had all these rediculous powers and was damn near unbeatable except for the deus ex stone. Kryptonite is supposed to be an fragment of a radioactive rock from his planets core...and.yet EVERYONE SEEMS TO HAVE IT...
But look at something like the typical "mundane"heroes like Batman. There are so many logical inconsistencies with the guy that the only reason he isnt just sniped on the street is because the writers don't allow it...
If your.going to do all these things to try and shaft casters, why doesnt anyone also use Disarms, trips, or Sunder on the guy with the big stick? Or dominate the big idiot (seeing at it is considered by many bad form to.use domination magic with any real frequency)? These are very simple tactics but you rarely see them....
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Y'know, we've talked about the likes of Hercules and other mythically strong dudes that can do amazing things but what about Batman. Even at his most mundane, why can't martials at least do what Batman does in terms of tool usage and maneuverability? Why not class features for Rogues and Fighters that get more out of items and gadgets than anyone else? or weapon tricks that are worthwhile instead of underpowered feats? Or just any kind of mechanical advantage for being more tactical? They tend to beat casters by being up close against an unprepared caster, so what if they were at least better at getting into that kind of position or at least use the tools to help them in that route.
I find it funny that even SORCERERS have a.way to get MM...
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Actually I very much liked the Daevic from Akashic Mysteries.
It's very much a martial, yet gets very important day to day choices through the veilweeving system.
(examples like "I think it's likely I will be facing water obstacles today, so I'm going to pick a veil to help me overcome those" or "I will be talking a lot today, so I need a veil that will get more out of my oratory skills")
Never anything as crazy as spells, but still enough to make a player feel clever when they prepare correctly.
I find it funny that even SORCERERS have a.way to get MM...Do they?
That's not something I would've done.
Unless you're talking about the feat Barroom Brawler, which I still don't completely agree with, but only one feat once a day isn't a super big deal.
I guess if any caster could use versatility it's the Sorcerer, but still...
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Eh, I said what needed to say. And this bit will be the last of it just to get off my shoulders.
He has no real argument. It's empty. It's nothing. It's wasteful even to oppose it because it's a dried husk crawling out of the dirt coffin it was nailed down in the moment people realized the sweet spot for GM's to stop having to build encounters specifically to make a player feel useless in order to allow everyone a chance to shine and still make decent challenges was around the T3-T4 range.
It's not even a player thing anymore. It's a developer thing. The oft quoted developer posts are years old now and made with the assumption that opinions and beliefs can't change. Because things are changing, people are moving towards the creamy middle and finding out that it's more fun to let everyone shine on their own merit and focus on story rather than focus on trying to keep one or more things in check at a time. Entire companies and booklines are built around this ideal.
We don't need to tell anyone that specifically tailoring encounters to serve the purpose of targeting a player rather than further the plot, or provide a cinematic moment is bad form.
We don't need to rehash almost 15 years of threads, articles, analysis, bitter fights, and what have you.
It's done.
It's a ghost.
The horse is now slain, resurrected, and slain again.
It's just a puppet of the Unnameable One whose power only lies in people bickering over its very existence.
And the funny thing is? I honestly think he can run his table however he feels. If his table is having fun kudos to him. I only take issue with his attitude for how other people want their game and his toxic behavior.
Oh and his sincere belief WoW is the soruce of all woes. Because I haven't heard that one reiterated a hundred times before.
Except, many of us here weren't made to play D&D from wow.
You know what did?
Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate, Dragonlance and R.A. Salvatore novels, stories and books from our grognard uncles about RIFTS and Spelljammer and all those things about as far away from a Conan book as an Arnold Schwarzenegger flick (probably butchered that name), from our college buddies talking about their games with heroin urinating dinosaurs and golden shining heroes.
By the time I started playing WoW I had been playing d&d for several years.
The CharOP boards where Pun-Pun was spawned predate WoW.
Back then people complained about CoDzilla and Drizzt clones.
That's why, ultimately, I can't take him seriously and see no value in his arguments. He demeans and dismisses the very people he's attempting to argue with as if that somehow strengthens his position. He intentionally baits people so he can attempt to force threadlocks and fuel the flames because he feels like that somehow validates his claim.
I want people to understand that, ignore him, and move on. I'm too busy making things for others to have fun with and having fun myself to hear all about my badwrongfun. Screw that. Fun for me is what I say it is. The same goes for everyone else.
heroin urinating dinosaurs and golden shining heroes.The "golden shining" and "heroin urinating" aren't related are they?
Depends on the location of the solar exalt at the moment of release.
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Screw.Drizzt lol, Jarlaxle was where it was at!
Okay.. getting close to 600 posts not counting the 200 deleted posts... Waiting for the next thread titled "What Kind of Better Things Do Martials Need?"
I just discovered Path of War not too long ago. This stuff is the bomb. Give the fighter a full maneuver progression list and knowledge of four disciplines. Give him 6 skillpoints/level and make the chosen discipline skills class skills for him. Give him a good Reflex or Will save for the love of breadbaskets! Give him ways to shrug off harmful conditions. Make him resilient. Give him all the equipment trick feats for free to encourage diverse fighting styles.
Just a few suggestions.
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Okay.. getting close to 600 posts not counting the 200 deleted posts... Waiting for the next thread titled "What Kind of Better Things Do Martials Need?"
I just discovered Path of War not too long ago. This stuff is the bomb. Give the fighter a full maneuver progression list and knowledge of four disciplines. Give him 6 skillpoints/level and make the chosen discipline skills class skills for him. Give him a good Reflex or Will save for the love of breadbaskets! Give him ways to shrug off harmful conditions. Make him resilient. Give him all the equipment trick feats for free to encourage diverse fighting styles.
Just a few suggestions.
I'm subscribed to their new book and it's been great though I am dubious about how nutty the Harbinger can be.
It's memorable for me because Ssalarn called me an ADD riddled raccoon during the playtest when I fought him over the Stalker recovery mechanic. It was hilarious.
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To me that's what makes me think a new version of Pathfindef with little to no changes simply won't sell as well. The devs to me at least have not shown that much of a interest to really address many of the flaws. Unchained was and is a step in the right direction yet when 3pp offer better options. I can't see myself being another edition where the caster/martial disparity exist. I would need substantial changes to reinvest a third time.
Design Manager
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It's memorable for me because Ssalarn called me an ADD riddled raccoon during the playtest when I fought him over the Stalker recovery mechanic. It was hilarious.
I can't find the post and I may have retracted it (sometimes my fingers respond before my brain kicks in) but I'm like 99% sure it was ADHD :D
Good times.
Actually I very much liked the Daevic from Akashic Mysteries.
It's very much a martial, yet gets very important day to day choices through the veilweeving system.
(examples like "I think it's likely I will be facing water obstacles today, so I'm going to pick a veil to help me overcome those" or "I will be talking a lot today, so I need a veil that will get more out of my oratory skills")
Never anything as crazy as spells, but still enough to make a player feel clever when they prepare correctly.
:D
The Daevic was hard to get right. I think I revised that class more times than any other class or set of mechanics in the entire product line. People start getting all twitchy when they see full BAB accompanied by other useful abilities, so hitting that sweet spot of player agency, combat proficiency, general competence, and Fun Stuff took some doing. I think the end result is pretty great for that "martial in a magical world" vibe though ;)
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Maybe we should stop saying 'martials need better things' and instead say, 'martials need more interesting things'.
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Design Manager
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Maybe we should stop saying 'martials need better things' and instead say, 'martials need more interesting things'.
Or just be more specific about the context of "better". Generally speaking, their numbers are really solid for combat, but even then there can be issues with adapting to various scenarios (flying opponents, magic walls, etc.).
Maybe "Martials need better tools for adapting in combat and participating out of combat in a magical world".