Edited 1:25 PM CST of 8-21-2017 to fix a legality issue.
The following is a build, but since it's on topic I'm hoping we'll let it fly; if not feel free to get a moderator to remove the post with my full blessings. Since we were discussing the idea of a 1 level dip starting off as a Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) 1 to get the Scimitar going as soon as possible, I took a stab at a build for it. The following is built around PFS play (20 point buy, etc.) and uses Bard 1/Magus 10. I would love to hear some feedback on it. All references to Level mean Character Overall Level, not class-specific level, unless a class is specified.
Note the build is not optimized for raw damage output; it's built around versatility, and meant to be decent at a lot of things. Still, there may be a few things that can be improved even within that goal (and if you want damage output optimization, stripping out the flavor options is very easy). That said, here goes:
General Details, Favored Class Options, etc.:
Race: Elf
Alignment: NG
Deity: Sarenrae
Classes: Bard (Dawnflower Dervish) 1 / Magus (Hexcrafter) 10, in that order.
Favored Class Options: Magus is Favored Class, using Elf special options for it.
Magus 1: +1 HP
2-7: 1/6th of a new arcana
Magus 8-10: +1 HP
Racial Trait Substitutions: Remove Weapon Familiarity for Arcane Focus (+2 Concentration on Arcane Spells)
Attributes:
Str 12
Dex 17 (15 + 2 Elf)
Con 12 (14 - 2 Elf)
Int 16 (14 + 2 Elf)
Wis 9
Cha 12.
Level 4 bonus to Dex, Level 8 bonus to Wisdom (so Dex 18 and Wis 10 at Level 8+). Stat boosting items will go to Dex and Int.
Traits: Quantium University Graduate, and Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp)
Feats:
L1: Dervish Dance (automatic via Bard archetype) and Toughness
L3: Extra Performance
L5: Extra Arcana (Healing Hex via Hexcrafter)
L6: Intensified Spell (via Magus 5 bonus feat)
L7: Improved Familiar (but don't acquire the Familiar until next level; picking up a Pseudodragon at Character Level 8 / Magus 7)
L9: Spell Penetration
L11: Extra Arcana (Spell Blending. Acquire Magic Circle Against Evil and Communal Resist Energy)
Arcana Selections: Contains some overlap with Feats notes above.
L4: Familiar (Bat)
L5: Flight (via Hexcrafter) and Healing (via Feat, using Hexcrafter)
L7: Arcane Accuracy
L8: Spell Blending (Admonishing Ray and Burst of Radiance) via Favored Class Option (spent 6 favored-class options to get a new Arcana)
L10: Accurate Strike
L11: Spell Blending (Communal Resist Energy, Magic Circle Against Evil) via Feat.
The end result is a Magus who is competent in melee, but can do a bit of healing, knowledge checks, etc. and has their melee abilities work from level 1 rather than waiting until level 3. They even have a LITTLE ability in social stuff.
Would this satisfy the idea we were discussing earlier, of using a Bard dip to help out the Scimitar Magus build? Would this be better than going straight Magus 11?
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Magus builds are welcome in this thread, don't worry about it :)
Your build looks solid; however after a couple of levels I would suggest retraining out of Dervish Dancer in favor of another Magus level (and replacing Extra Performance by Weapon Finesse). Although it's by no means a bad dip, I'd say single-classing is better in the long run.
Why is that? Well, on your first turn you basically want to either move to an enemy and cast/attack (if there isn't one next to you), or make a full attack in spell combat (if there is); and spending a move action on Dervish Dance prevents you from doing either. At low level, this is fine; but as soon as you have spells that are equal or better than the dervish bonus, you can cast one of those and engage, instead of spending the first combat round buffing yourself.
Also, I suggest dropping str and wis to 8 each (since their current values do basically nothing for you) in favor of more con (frontliners want hit points and fort save). HTH!
Your build looks solid; however after a couple of levels I would suggest retraining out of Dervish Dancer in favor of another Magus level (and replacing Extra Performance by Weapon Finesse)
EDIT: I'm a moron. Obviously you mean to retrain the level, not the feat.
Question, how would I do this? I don't quite get how retraining works in PFS' case.
Can you explain this a little further? I don't understand the advice you're offering in this case. I'm sure it makes sense, but I personally am not grasping the point here.
If it matters, I admit I like what Bard 1 brings to the character out of combat. More knowledge skills and a few other neat things I wanted. I'm open to being talked back into Magus 11, but I think Bard 1 / Magus 10 offers something compelling from a versatility point of view?
At low level, this is fine; but as soon as you have spells that are equal or better than the dervish bonus, you can cast one of those and engage, instead of spending the first combat round buffing yourself.
Which spells would these be?
Also, I suggest dropping str and wis to 8 each (since their current values do basically nothing for you) in favor of more con (frontliners want hit points and fort save).
Thank you for the insights, but I have a concern here... how does STR 8 even carry their gear without slowing down? Str 8's Light load is 26 pounds, and I find it hard to stay under that limit with the character's clothes (4-6 pounds), armor (10-15 pounds even with mithril used), spellbook (3 pounds-ish), spell component pouch (2 pounds-ish), handy haversack (5 pounds), and weaponry (4 pound scimitar + whatever else you toss in). Str 12 was as low as I could go and keep them under a Light Load when I was working on this build.
The Con issue is so noted; I was using Toughness to cover for it as best I could.
EDIT: Please see the first paragraph if you've already read this post, I misunderstood a bit about retraining. (If you've already seen said edit, ignore this edit notice)
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how does STR 8 even carry their gear without slowing down? Str 8's Light load is 26 pounds, and I find it hard to stay under that limit with the character's clothes (4-6 pounds), armor (10-15 pounds even with mithril used), spellbook (3 pounds-ish), spell component pouch (2 pounds-ish), handy haversack (5 pounds), and weaponry (4 pound scimitar + whatever else you toss in).
Well for starters, you put the spellbook IN the haversack :)
Replace haversack by minor bag of holding (3 lbs); until you can afford one, masterwork backpack ups your carrying capacity. Since you're dex-based you probably want studded leather instead of a chain shirt. And there's outfits that weigh less than 4-6. It's tight but it fits, and I've played characters with less str than this who still had a light load.
If this bothers you, go for 9 or 10 str, but there's no need for 12 if you can use your point buy elsewhere.
I'd probably go starting stats of STR 11, DEX 17, CON 12, INT 16, WIS 10, CHA 12. That way you don't have that -1 to will saves and perception. If you really want to min-max you could go STR 9, DEX 17, CON 12, INT 17, WIS 10, CHA 12.
If you really want higher than a 12 in CON you're probably better off just picking a different race, but I'd say taking Toughness will probably be enough.
Magus builds are welcome in this thread, don't worry about it :)
Your build looks solid; however after a couple of levels I would suggest retraining out of Dervish Dancer in favor of another Magus level (and replacing Extra Performance by Weapon Finesse). Although it's by no means a bad dip, I'd say single-classing is better in the long run.
Why is that? Well, on your first turn you basically want to either move to an enemy and cast/attack (if there isn't one next to you), or make a full attack in spell combat (if there is); and spending a move action on Dervish Dance prevents you from doing either. At low level, this is fine; but as soon as you have spells that are equal or better than the dervish bonus, you can cast one of those and engage, instead of spending the first combat round buffing yourself.
{. . .}
Sarenrae's Bards have **2** archetypes (although only the 1st is obligately associated with Sarenrae): Dawnflower Dervish and Dervish Dancer (and on www.d20fsrd.com, where the first one is renamed, it's REAL EASY to get them mixed up). You want the first one, which gives Dervish Dance as a bonus feat. Since this gives you both Dex-to-Attack and Dex-to-Damage even if you don't have Weapon Finesse, because Dawnflower Dervish gives it to you prerequisite-free, if you retrain out the Dawnflower Dervish level you now need to acquire both Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance (which normally requires Weapon Finesse even though it actually supercedes it as long as you stick to scimitars). Arguably you might want both feats anyway for safety, so that you are not totally hosed in case something bad happens to your scimitar, but retraining Extra Performance only gives you back 1 feat, so you wind up short on feats. Also, Dervish Dance (in addition to not YET being nerfed to be incompatible with Spell Combat) does not eat your action economy, although starting Bardic Performance/Battle Dance does (unless you get 10 levels in Dawnflower Dervish).
One thing I would recommend changing in the build is to interchange Spell Penetration (move from level 9 to level 7) and Improved Familiar (move from level 7 to level 9). This loses you only 1 level of having your Improved Familiar (Pseudodragon, which you can't get until level 8), but gains you 2 levels of having Spell Penetration (which has no prerequisites).
Also, instead of Extra Performance (since probably half of the time you won't want to eat actions using it), I would recommend another use of Extra Arcana (can't get it at level 3, so you'll have to rearrange things a bit) to get another Hex. Your current build has only 1 Hex in it.
Huh, I guess putting the spell book in the pouch would help. I had presumed GMs would find some way to block access to the extradimensional space when you need it, but maybe that's me being paranoid. If I'm being ridiculous worrying about that, then I could free up a few points here and there, sure. Thank you for the insights!
As for the Feat swap on Improved Familiar and Spell Penetration, the reasoning is sound... but my major point against it is I want the Pseudodragon (with its blindsense) online ASAP. Otherwise I need a lot more Glitterdust prepared.
I might ditch Extra Performance if it's really that pointless though, that could well be a trade worth making. Iron Will is one thought, feat-shuffling the slot around is another... any other suggestions on feats to take?
So, I tried lowering Str again and I still don't get how you're making it work unless you use worse armor. Mithril Chain Shirt and the Str to support it seems like it would have higher AC than going with something less, as I'm unlikely to get Dex above 20 or 22 before level 11. Can someone show me the math here so I can understand it better? If I could get Dex to 24 or 26 somehow then I'd easily agree with the idea, but within PFS limitations I'm not sure how to make it work.
It's worth noting my version of the build does lose about 5 pounds or so on magic items (Cloak of Resistance, some special boots, etc)... does this help account for some of my confusion and the differences in our builds?
As for feats and hexes: The build I proposed does have Flight AND Healing, so I'm a little puzzled people keep suggesting I add something that's already there?
Fitting in another Extra Arcana feat would require moving Spell Penetration to the Level 3 feat selection, doing Extra Arcana at L7 or L9 accordingly. Fitting in the feat that adds more Arcane Pool points (I forget its name at the moment) on the other hand is easily done at any point.
Another pair of possibilities would be to pick one of Weapon Focus Scimitar or Improved Initiative. Technically Weapon Finesse would help with backup weapons, but I'm of the opinion the Magus' backup weapon is their spells. It's also part of why I'm not too worried about the Move Action to get Bardic Performance going; the Standard can be used to launch a Fireball or something, make them come to the Magus.
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Holding the charge followed by spell combat isn't going to work. The latter breaks the former.
Which isn't to say hasted assault is bad. Sometimes swift: hasted assault, move: move up to 60', standard: cast shocking grasp or something will be what you want to do. But quite often you'd be just as well off casting haste.
Huh, I guess putting the spell book in the pouch would help. I had presumed GMs would find some way to block access to the extradimensional space when you need it, but maybe that's me being paranoid. If I'm being ridiculous worrying about that, then I could free up a few points here and there, sure. Thank you for the insights!
Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you . . . .
As for the Feat swap on Improved Familiar and Spell Penetration, the reasoning is sound... but my major point against it is I want the Pseudodragon (with its blindsense) online ASAP. Otherwise I need a lot more Glitterdust prepared.
In order to make sense of getting the Pseudodragon online 1 level earlier in exchange for getting Spell Penetration online 2 levels later, either Improved Familiar has to be worth twice as much as Spell Penetration, or you have to know of specific threats coming in the affected time frame that make the Pseudodragon especially necessary then.
I might ditch Extra Performance if it's really that pointless though, that could well be a trade worth making. Iron Will is one thought, feat-shuffling the slot around is another... any other suggestions on feats to take?
Extra Arcana (some Hex other than the ones you already have -- for instance, Evil Eye or Slumber). As noted above, you can't get this at level 3 (no Hex or even Magus Arcana yet), so you will have to bump something that you currently get later down to level 3.
I ended up picking out something a bit different: Breadth of Experience. While it has only modest combat use, it strikes me as potentially valuable outside it and PFS has a lot of non-combat skill checks from what I understand.
The remaining feat swapping around is probably a matter of personal taste and priorities (I'll note the Pseudodragon is more than just a Blindsense unit, like any smart Good-aligned familiar it has lots of other situational value) so I'll leave it at that.
The stats remain confusing, though. I don't understand what the benefit in using something other than Chain Shirt armor is when the build will be getting around Dex 20-22ish for most of its levels, maybe Dex 24 very late in PFS play. I would love it if someone could walk me through this in a bit more detail so I can see why Str 8-11 Magus makes sense.
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So you can't hold the charge frm shocking grasp in your weapon using spellstrike and cast bladed dash the following round?
No. You lose the charge once you cast another spell.
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Holding the charge followed by spell combat isn't going to work. The latter breaks the former.
Spell combat allows you to either cast a spell and make attacks, OR make attacks and cast a spell.
If you do the latter, then holding the charge followed by spell combat is entirely fine, and the 'held' spell only disappears once you get to the actual spellcasting part of spell combat.
Holding the charge followed by spell combat isn't going to work. The latter breaks the former.Spell combat allows you to either cast a spell and make attacks, OR make attacks and cast a spell.
If you do the latter, then holding the charge followed by spell combat is entirely fine, and the 'held' spell only disappears once you get to the actual spellcasting part of spell combat.
A point, there are situations where this'd work. Not the one MagicA was describing though where the bladed dash is used to close.
^I couldn't find it on the Paizo PRD either, but that might be the search engine not working, because when I try to find it on the Messageboards, it doesn't find your post either.
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Where is this Flamefire Rage feat? I can't find it on the archives or the PFSRD.
Elemental Masters Handbook. Check this newspost.
From the linked post, it sounds like it needs an Errata.
Too new to show up in any of the rules places, and misspelled in that post. That's why your searches didn't find it. :)
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Added aquatic elf race; several familiar feats, eldritch heritage, expanded arcana, and flamefire rage feats; a note on the hawk familiar; holy ice weapon spell; nimble armor, vigil cap, serpentine tattoo, musket, and smoldering blood items. This covers the Elemental Master's Handbook and Blood of the Sea.
Found an error in one of the feat entries in the guide:
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Quicken Spell* - Since you have several ways to cast spells as a swift action already (e.g. spell storing weapon or the Hasted Assault arcana), you probably want to do so without having to use a slot four levels higher. At level 15 and up, this is a good combo with Spell Perfection.
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Your description of Hasted Assault makes it sound like you can use it to cast faster.
Prerequisite: Magus 9
Benefit: The magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to move more quickly. This functions as haste, but only targets the magus and lasts for a number of rounds equal to the magus’s Intelligence bonus.
This is good but doesn't help you cast faster, and actually can't be used in the same round with Swift Action casting (they both use your Swift Action).
Still unable to find "Flamefire Rage" anyone have a link to this feat?
^The Elemental Master's Handbook (which is the one that has Flamefire Rage in it) was released on August 17, 2017, so give the (non-product-identity) stuff from this a bit more time to make its way into the online materials. Archives of Nethys will probably get it in either their next update or the one after that; www.d20pfsrd.com I'm not sure about, since they seem not to have updated for a few months now and have a bunch of broken links and otherwise snargulated navigation that needs fixing, I think they may have been concentrated on getting the Starfinder SRD up.
Still unable to find "Flamefire Rage" anyone have a link to this feat?
I addressed this just a few posts above.
Found an error in one of the feat entries in the guide:
{. . .}
Quicken Spell* - Since you have several ways to cast spells as a swift action already (e.g. spell storing weapon or the Hasted Assault arcana), you probably want to do so without having to use a slot four levels higher. At level 15 and up, this is a good combo with Spell Perfection.
{. . .}Your description of Hasted Assault makes it sound like you can use it to cast faster.
Prerequisite: Magus 9
Benefit: The magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to move more quickly. This functions as haste, but only targets the magus and lasts for a number of rounds equal to the magus’s Intelligence bonus.
This is good but doesn't help you cast faster, and actually can't be used in the same round with Swift Action casting (they both use your Swift Action).
I believe that's an example of a spell you can cast as a swift action already via arcana. You don't need to quicken since you can already haste as a swift action.
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I believe that's an example of a spell you can cast as a swift action already via arcana. You don't need to quicken since you can already haste as a swift action.
Yes, that. Hasted Assault is effectively a Quickened Haste spell (on yourself only, and without requiring a 7th level spell slot). This is one of the reasons why Quicken Spell is not all that great on a Magus.
I find it interesting that certain metamagic feats are inherently great on a Wizard but not very good on a Magus, and other metamagic feats are very good for a Magus but don't really help the Wizard much.
Quicken Spell may still be worthwhile to use on True Strike (unless some Magus Arcana has appeared by stealth that lets you do this).
Spell combat is a lot like quicken spell though. Especially if what you want to do is cast true strike then attack.
Under the Close Range Arcana you imply that Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation are better on crits.
Unless there's some FAQ or errata for this, those spells don't do anything extra on a critical, as they inflict a penalty and negative levels respectively, as opposed to damage.
Calcific Touch would be a good example of what to use with a good crit range.
Still unable to find "Flamefire Rage" anyone have a link to this feat?
It's because everyone keeps spelling it wrong. It's Flumefire Rage.
Under the Close Range Arcana you imply that Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation are better on crits.
Unless there's some FAQ or errata for this, those spells don't do anything extra on a critical, as they inflict a penalty and negative levels respectively, as opposed to damage.
Calcific Touch would be a good example of what to use with a good crit range.
The rules are in the Core Rulebook, in the combat chapter on page 184:
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Appendix 1), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
Still unable to find "Flamefire Rage" anyone have a link to this feat?It's because everyone keeps spelling it wrong. It's Flumefire Rage.
No, it's not. Seriously, read my post above. It is not in the online rulebooks yet because it is TOO NEW. The only instance of it on the forums WAS misspelled, however.
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It's just not in there yet...
From Archives of Nethys:
Elemental Master's Handbook
Estimated Release Date: 8/14/2017
Product Line: Player Companion
Paizo.com Store Page: http://paizo.com/products/btpy9qyb?Pathfinder-Player-Companion-Elemental-Ma sters-Handbook
Amazon.com Store Page: N/A
Nothing could be found for this source.
The rules are in the Core Rulebook, in the combat chapter on page 184:
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Appendix 1), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
Exactly this. Penalties and negative levels are not damage or drain. Some abilities/spells with "drain" in the name inflict penalties/neg.levels, but by RAW they are not (ability) drain, which is what this rule is referring to.
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It's because everyone keeps spelling it wrong. It's Flumefire Rage.What, seriously? A flume is a chute for water, an Apache data collection service, an Australian DJ. What on earth does any of that have to do with fire damage?
Volcanoes sometimes do this sort of thing which are called "steam flumes".
Exactly this. Penalties and negative levels are not damage or drain. Some abilities/spells with "drain" in the name inflict penalties/neg.levels, but by RAW they are not (ability) drain, which is what this rule is referring to.The rules are in the Core Rulebook, in the combat chapter on page 184:
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Appendix 1), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.
Hmmm... interesting.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
I'm fairly convinced that this means that Ray of Enfeeblement will still do double damage, but I'm not sure it includes Enervation.
I'm fairly sure there's similar wording somewhere that would mean Enervation would work too, but I'm willing to be proven wrong here. Anyone else want to weigh in?
No, it's not. Seriously, read my post above. It is not in the online rulebooks yet because it is TOO NEW. The only instance of it on the forums WAS misspelled, however.Still unable to find "Flamefire Rage" anyone have a link to this feat?It's because everyone keeps spelling it wrong. It's Flumefire Rage.
My apologies, you are correct. It is not in Archives nor d20pfsrd, yet, however.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
I'd certainly say it's reasonable to think they aren't in effect until after the roll happens and the ability/spell finishes.
Spell combat is a lot like quicken spell though. Especially if what you want to do is cast true strike then attack.
Yes, but if you want to True Strike to make sure that a certain Spellstrike lands (whether on an otherwise normal attack or on a combat maneuver), then you need Quicken Spell for the True Strike so that you can get the other spell in with Spell Combat without needing to wait until the next round.
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Volcanoes sometimes do this sort of thing which are called "steam flumes".It's because everyone keeps spelling it wrong. It's Flumefire Rage.What, seriously? A flume is a chute for water, an Apache data collection service, an Australian DJ. What on earth does any of that have to do with fire damage?
Seems to be an unplayable YouTube video (just keeps spinning the circle for loading the video, even though I just successfully played several other longer YouTube videos).
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Yes, but if you want to True Strike to make sure that a certain Spellstrike lands (whether on an otherwise normal attack or on a combat maneuver), then you need Quicken Spell for the True Strike so that you can get the other spell in with Spell Combat without needing to wait until the next round.
Yes, that's why I wrote that Quicken Spell is "not all that great" but not that it is really bad or totally useless. It has its place, but the +4 level increase is a rather big deal for a six-level caster.
For that matter, Quickened Touch of Fatigue gives you a swift-action attack for a 4th level slot. It's arguably not the best use for that slot but it's not a bad option either.
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Other than Skirnir, are there any archetypes that trade out spell combat? I've got a character I'd like to use an Earthbreaker (not optimal at all for a magus, I know), but I can't bring myself to give up spell combat unless I'm getting something decent in return. Thunder and Fang is too many feats for it to come online fast enough to make it worthwhile, plus there are lots of questions about that working with spell combat, even for a Skirnir.