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I have a Swashbuckler 1/ Flame dancer X build who's just getting started. Plan is to save the Song of Fiery Gaze for when we really need it and stick to inspire courage most of the time. I imagine if it was your go to thing all the time, GMs might get tired of GMing the charcter, but if you save it for the big bad, or for when the cleric has to get over to an unconscious character (or dead at higher levels), I don't see them having a problem.
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I am actually planning to use the Song with spark and smoke sticks. And passing a wand of obscuring mist to the party Cleric/Oracle/Druid/Wizard/Witch... or maybe just UMDing it myself.
The Smoke Stick on an ally would let me drop Concealment around the tactical field that the PCs can see thru (with the Song) but the monsters can't. If an Ally is in melee, I can spark a smoke stick and cover him in smoke - providing him with 20% concealment (or better).
But I am wondering if anyone has any experience with this playing this in PFS yet...
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the biggest problem with the eversmoking bottle is making it not horrible for your team mates.
(My ifrit gunslinger is considering taking fire sight, and having the bottle on hand for if the party starts losing.)
This is not a problem for the Flame Dancer. If I can see thru the smoke, so can every ally (with in 30') that can hear me...
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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This is not a problem for the Flame Dancer. If I can see thru the smoke, so can every ally (with in 30') that can hear me...the biggest problem with the eversmoking bottle is making it not horrible for your team mates.
(My ifrit gunslinger is considering taking fire sight, and having the bottle on hand for if the party starts losing.)
Hmm. Interesting. It looks like action economy might make it hard to pull off the ever smoking bottle as an emergency measure until high levels.
Move / standard to start a new performance,
Move to retrieve bottle
standard to activate.
Not good when the cleric needs to get to a downed friend.
But still good for a boss fight.
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My idea was a Flame Dancer 3 / Paladin 2 / Dragon Disciple Nagaji who worshiped Apsu but I couldn't quite get the build to the point I was happy with. I think just going straight bard is probably the best option.
Someone a little while ago was looking for a build for his son. It turned into a character I thought had tons of cool flavor at the very least.
Dirge of the Flame
Ifrit: Hypnotic and Wildfire Heart Racial Traits
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 8
CHR 18
Dirge Bard + Flame Dancer
Traits: Maestro of the Society, Magical Knack
1 Bard Feat Combat Reflexes, Bardic Knowledge, Fire Dancer, Distraction, Fascinate, Inspire Courage
2 Bard Haunted Eyes, Secrets of the Grave (1st lvl spell)
3 Bard Feat Dodge, Song of the Fiery Gaze
4 Bard
5 Bard Feat Mobility, Haunting Refrain
6 Shadow Dancer Hide in plain sight
7 Shadow Dancer Feat Symphony of the Elysian Heart (Masterpiece), Evasion, darkvision (90 ft), uncanny dodge
8 Shadow Dancer Rogue talent, shadow illusion, summon shadow
Core Item: Eversmoking Bottle + Handy Haversack.
Secrets of the Grave lets you buff the Shadow with spells such as Good Hope and Heroism.
Handy Haversack let's you take out an already open eversmoking bottle as a move action and then still use a standard action.
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This is not a problem for the Flame Dancer. If I can see thru the smoke, so can every ally (with in 30') that can hear me...the biggest problem with the eversmoking bottle is making it not horrible for your team mates.
(My ifrit gunslinger is considering taking fire sight, and having the bottle on hand for if the party starts losing.)
Hmm. Interesting. It looks like action economy might make it hard to pull off the ever smoking bottle as an emergency measure until high levels.
Move / standard to start a new performance,
Move to retrieve bottle
standard to activate.Not good when the cleric needs to get to a downed friend.
But still good for a boss fight.
goodness - why would we be in combat when I DON'T have the Song going? Esp. as I normally just start it up every third round (Lingering Performance).
That way I can use smoke sticks, and other tricks to litter the field with effects that don't effect my friends, but hinder the bad guys.
And Eversmoking Bottle is expensive. Right now I'm just 3rd level, so I'm looking at low level effects like smoke sticks and ob. mist... I tend to enjoy playing the lower levels anyway. by the time I can afford the E.Bottle I am likely to have set this PC aside for my next "fun idea".
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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This is not a problem for the Flame Dancer. If I can see thru the smoke, so can every ally (with in 30') that can hear me...the biggest problem with the eversmoking bottle is making it not horrible for your team mates.
(My ifrit gunslinger is considering taking fire sight, and having the bottle on hand for if the party starts losing.)
Hmm. Interesting. It looks like action economy might make it hard to pull off the ever smoking bottle as an emergency measure until high levels.
Move / standard to start a new performance,
Move to retrieve bottle
standard to activate.Not good when the cleric needs to get to a downed friend.
But still good for a boss fight.
goodness - why would we be in combat when I DON'T have the Song going? Esp. as I normally just start it up every third round (Lingering Performance).
That way I can use smoke sticks, and other tricks to litter the field with effects that don't effect my friends, but hinder the bad guys.
And Eversmoking Bottle is expensive. Right now I'm just 3rd level, so I'm looking at low level effects like smoke sticks and ob. mist... I tend to enjoy playing the lower levels anyway. by the time I can afford the E.Bottle I am likely to have set this PC aside for my next "fun idea".
Deighton Thrane was advocating for saving it for when an ally goes down. I was observing that the action economy might prevent that, but the ever smoking bottle in a hand haversack does rather get around that. It is incredibly cheesy, but it works.
5400 gp is actually pretty cheap. Should be easily affordable by the time you hit 5th level. Prestige is a bit harder, but you should have enough by 6 if not by 5.
I admit, I kind of wish there was a non consumable item that fell somewhere between ever smoking bottle and smokestick.
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This is not a problem for the Flame Dancer. If I can see thru the smoke, so can every ally (with in 30') that can hear me...the biggest problem with the eversmoking bottle is making it not horrible for your team mates.
(My ifrit gunslinger is considering taking fire sight, and having the bottle on hand for if the party starts losing.)
Hmm. Interesting. It looks like action economy might make it hard to pull off the ever smoking bottle as an emergency measure until high levels.
Move / standard to start a new performance,
Move to retrieve bottle
standard to activate.Not good when the cleric needs to get to a downed friend.
But still good for a boss fight.
goodness - why would we be in combat when I DON'T have the Song going? Esp. as I normally just start it up every third round (Lingering Performance).
That way I can use smoke sticks, and other tricks to litter the field with effects that don't effect my friends, but hinder the bad guys.
And Eversmoking Bottle is expensive. Right now I'm just 3rd level, so I'm looking at low level effects like smoke sticks and ob. mist... I tend to enjoy playing the lower levels anyway. by the time I can afford the E.Bottle I am likely to have set this PC aside for my next "fun idea".
Deighton Thrane was advocating for saving it for when an ally goes down. I was observing that the action economy might prevent that, but the ever smoking bottle in a hand haversack does rather get around that. It is incredibly cheesy, but it works.
5400 gp is actually pretty cheap. Should be easily affordable by the time you hit 5th level. Prestige is a bit harder, but you should have enough by 6 if not by 5.
I admit, I kind of wish there was a non consumable item that fell somewhere between ever smoking bottle and smokestick.
I was actually doing it with a Wand of Ob. Mist now... It's just that often another PC will have to throw up the smokescreen.
and Prestige may be a problem. Played Fallen Fortress early on (so only 5 fame for first level) and a Mod (3XP but only 4 Fame) so I'm a little behind the curve on Fame.
But 5K+ is a lot on a 5 or 6 level PC... and by the time I hit 7th I kind of loose interest in most of my characters - we'll see if Ember is one of those.
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Just do your GMs a favor and don't use eversmoking bottle too much. It might be legal, but it shouldn't be. That item is a nightmare, and can't be bypassed unless your character/party is designed to bypass it - in which case it utterly shuts down nearly all foes, and doesn't impede the party at all.
I love the spark/smokestick trick though! Very clever.
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Just do your GMs a favor and don't use eversmoking bottle too much. It might be legal, but it shouldn't be. That item is a nightmare, and can't be bypassed unless your character/party is designed to bypass it - in which case it utterly shuts down nearly all foes, and doesn't impede the party at all.
That's the thing with the Flame Dancer Bard though, they allow the entire party to bypass it. It's incredibly powerful, giving the equivalent of improved invisibility to the entire team.
It's fully legal, but it just makes the game too easy.
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I was actually doing it with a Wand of Ob. Mist...This is not a problem for the Flame Dancer. If I can see thru the smoke, so can every ally (with in 30') that can hear me...the biggest problem with the eversmoking bottle is making it not horrible for your team mates.
(My ifrit gunslinger is considering taking fire sight, and having the bottle on hand for if the party starts losing.)
Hmm. Interesting. It looks like action economy might make it hard to pull off the ever smoking bottle as an emergency measure until high levels.
Move / standard to start a new performance,
Move to retrieve bottle
standard to activate.Not good when the cleric needs to get to a downed friend.
But still good for a boss fight.
goodness - why would we be in combat when I DON'T have the Song going? Esp. as I normally just start it up every third round (Lingering Performance).
That way I can use smoke sticks, and other tricks to litter the field with effects that don't effect my friends, but hinder the bad guys.
And Eversmoking Bottle is expensive. Right now I'm just 3rd level, so I'm looking at low level effects like smoke sticks and ob. mist... I tend to enjoy playing the lower levels anyway. by the time I can afford the E.Bottle I am likely to have set this PC aside for my next "fun idea".
Deighton Thrane was advocating for saving it for when an ally goes down. I was observing that the action economy might prevent that, but the ever smoking bottle in a hand haversack does rather get around that. It is incredibly cheesy, but it works.
5400 gp is actually pretty cheap. Should be easily affordable by the time you hit 5th level. Prestige is a bit harder, but you should have enough by 6 if not by 5.
I admit, I kind of wish there was a non consumable item that fell somewhere between ever smoking bottle and smokestick.
Yeah, the plan for low level cleric recovery was:
A) Buy wand of Obscuring mist
B) Hand it to any other character who can cast it (not you or the cleric)
Still not great for action economy, but it really should only be used this way in an emergency. Higher level plan is spring loaded wrist sheathe, UMD wand of Obscuring Mist, and start performance as a move action.
The problem with the Eversmoking Bottle is that it takes 1 round to spread out, so, while great if used proactively, doesn't work great reactively.
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Yes I have a flame dancer bard that UMDs a wand of obscuring mist and gives everyone the ability to see through it. It's fun but I only do it when the party is really in trouble.
Its not 100% clear to me that obscuring mist can be seen through (is mist fog?).
I'd certainly expect at least some GM variation on that.
But I agree with the people who think it an overpowered and essentially boring trick. As a GM my reaction would be pretty much "congratulations, you've won pathfinder. Now, do you actually want to play the game or not?"
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As far as "winning pathfinder" and invalidating encounters I could see this being a lot of fun to gm for a party who uses this especially if they do it as a well played covert ops unit. Take inspiration from Burn Notice, Michael Weston would be a great pathfinder, even if Fi fits better into the murderhobo mold.
Edit: Good team play should always be incentivized, and I think the rules do this well in this case, and the GM should support this
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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So here is the thing, yeah, it would be boring if you did it every encounter. But how many times have we seen encounters with darkness + darkvision or even deeper darkness + see in darkness.
Is this really any different? What is sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander after all. (If you could replay at will, I would make fire dancer, give him an eversmoking bottle, and then send him through all the scenarios that have darkness in them, and every time darkness comes out, the bottle comes out. And I would name him Karma.)
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Yes I have a flame dancer bard that UMDs a wand of obscuring mist and gives everyone the ability to see through it. It's fun but I only do it when the party is really in trouble.Its not 100% clear to me that obscuring mist can be seen through (is mist fog?).
I'd certainly expect at least some GM variation on that.
But I agree with the people who think it an overpowered and essentially boring trick. As a GM my reaction would be pretty much "congratulations, you've won pathfinder. Now, do you actually want to play the game or not?"
Not sure how you are counting "Win Pathfinder", since I have seen a blinded barbarian confirm a crit on a target.
Hit on 20 on the die, rolled a hit on the 50% miss chance, was aiming at the right square, and confirmed the crit, dropping the target to almost dead. And the target was another Barbarian, to boot.
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It's actually not superb for melee characters that don't attack with reach, though a 20% miss chance is nothing to sneer at. What it's really good at is allowing movement without drawing AoOs (against creatures with reach), enabling stealth and sneak attacks, while preventing enemy sneak attacks (unless the enemy is an unchained rogue), and allowing characters to attack at range against an enemy that's both denied it dexterity bonus to AC, and can't tell where the attacks are coming from. They get a direction but that's about it(for a fun trick, cast obscuring mist over a pit spell, attack from behind the pit spell, watch as enemies walk into your pit spell). Plus screwing over creatures using darkness is priceless.
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It's actually not superb for melee characters that don't attack with reach, though a20% miss chanceis nothing to sneer at.Eversmoking bottle blocks all sight.
That means all enemies are completely blind and the party can see perfectly.
He's talking about the mist spell and the smoke stick. Those give concealment.
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Two of my friends and I have a halfling gang together, and one of them has a Flame Dancer bard that plays with an Alchemist with smoke bombs (my character is the melee in this party). The combo works really well.
We usually only whip out this trick like once per scenario to be nice to the GM.
wow! Smoke bombs! I hadn't thought of that!... have to look for a buddy Alchemist now...
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So here is the thing, yeah, it would be boring if you did it every encounter. But how many times have we seen encounters with darkness + darkvision or even deeper darkness + see in darkness.
Is this really any different? What is sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander after all. (If you could replay at will, I would make fire dancer, give him an eversmoking bottle, and then send him through all the scenarios that have darkness in them, and every time darkness comes out, the bottle comes out. And I would name him Karma.)
No, this is idiotic. Deeper darkness for NPC's turns up occasionally and a reasonably well prepared group will have a counter for it. An oil of daylight is a 2pp purchase.
This particular combination simply shuts down the vast majority of NPC opposition unless you expect to never fight anything but earth elementals or things with blindsight.
Its a deeply dull combination.
And, as the post you responded to said, if you used it every encounter, sure. But, like every fallback ability, save it for when you really need it.
As to the oil of daylight thing. Heh. That moves you right back into the light vs darkness stuff, and the question of whether a neutralized daylight can still neutralize new deeper darkness[ spells, since so many things which have see in darkness have deeper darkness as an at will SLA.
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And now I'm 6th level and have the GP (and the fame) to buy an Ever-Smoking Bottle.
The question is - do I? At my current level, 5400 gp is a lot of money. I could pick up several lesser items that would be lots of help... or the Bottle.
And I'm heading out to a CON this weekend - so I need to decide...
Buy the Bottle and have that "Ace up my sleeve"? After all, if I buy it, sooner or later it is going to be used...
anyone got any advice?
How do you deal with the choking hazard of smoke?
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How do you deal with the choking hazard of smoke?
if it comes up - then the players would use air bubble - but that is an additional ability that most judges would not want to graft onto the Bottle. It doesn't have it to start with...
Give the players the ability to choke as well as blind all the monster? Not going to happen...
Eversmoking Bottle
Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot none; Price 5,400 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
This metal urn is identical in appearance to an efreeti bottle, except that it does nothing but smoke. The amount of smoke is great if the stopper is pulled out, pouring from the bottle and totally obscuring vision across a 50-foot spread in 1 round. If the bottle is left unstoppered, the smoke billows out another 10 feet per round until it has covered a 100-foot radius. This area remains smoke-filled until the eversmoking bottle is stoppered.
The bottle must be resealed by a command word, after which the smoke dissipates normally. A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the smoke in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the smoke in 1 round.
How do you deal with the choking hazard of smoke?if it comes up - then the players would use air bubble - but that is an additional ability that most judges would not want to graft onto the Bottle. It doesn't have it to start with...
Give the players the ability to choke as well as blind all the monster? Not going to happen...
** spoiler omitted **
You are going to see a lot of table variation on what type of smoke the eversmoking bottle produces, as well as what works against the choking effects assuming its ruled to be like the smoke environmental hazard. I'll point out air bubble doesn't say anything about protecting against harmful vapors. Contrast it with the cleric/wizard level 5 spell life bubble in the advanced players guide.
But yes, a necklace of adaptation or life bubble spell can definitely protect against it. Air bubble might depending on your GM, but its unclear. Simply holding your breath (which does make speaking and verbal spellcasting difficult) for a number of rounds equal to your con also works. Just get out of the cloud or disperse it before you run out of breath.
I'll also point out, that anyone already investing in an eversmoking bottle might also be interested in slippers of cloud walking (from Ultimate Equipment guide).
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How do you deal with the choking hazard of smoke?if it comes up - then the players would use air bubble - but that is an additional ability that most judges would not want to graft onto the Bottle. It doesn't have it to start with...
Give the players the ability to choke as well as blind all the monster? Not going to happen...
** spoiler omitted **
You are going to see a lot of table variation on what type of smoke the eversmoking bottle produces, as well as what works against the choking effects assuming its ruled to be like the smoke environmental hazard. I'll point out air bubble doesn't say anything about protecting against harmful vapors. Contrast it with the cleric/wizard level 5 spell life bubble in the advanced players guide.
But yes, a necklace of adaptation or life bubble spell can definitely protect against it. Air bubble might depending on your GM, but its unclear. Simply holding your breath (which does make speaking and verbal spellcasting difficult) for a number of rounds equal to your con also works. Just get out of the cloud or disperse it before you run out of breath.
I'll also point out, that anyone already investing in an eversmoking bottle might also be interested in slippers of cloud walking (from Ultimate Equipment guide).
Thanks for the note on the Slippers (an item my PCs often pick up after they buy Mistmail armor).
A point about "table variation on what type of smoke the Eversmoking bottle produces" - anything that the judge just adds to the description would be just that, an addition to the magic item. And anything added would just be giving more abilities to the PCs...
Does the smoke do anything besides block vision? if it does, why wasn't it mentioned in the description of the effects generated by the magic item (which goes into detail about the vision effects)? Any additional effects will need additional rules - DCs of choking/poison gas effects etc. All these things the PCs would have the opportunity to find "fixes" for, "fixes" that the monsters do not have available.
Thanks for the note on the Slippers (an item my PCs often pick up after they buy Mistmail armor).A point about "table variation on what type of smoke the Eversmoking bottle produces" - anything that the judge just adds to the description would be just that, an addition to the magic item. And anything added would just be giving more abilities to the PCs...
Does the smoke do anything besides block vision? if it does, why wasn't it mentioned in the description of the effects generated by the magic item (which goes into detail about the vision effects)? Any additional effects will need additional rules - DCs of choking/poison gas effects etc. All these things the PCs would have the opportunity to find "fixes" for, "fixes" that the monsters do not have available.
I will point out the question of has been asked on the forums before and gotten multiple answers. So if one of those people who had a different take on it than you was GMing, you will have table variation. See for example this thread. Some people have interpreted smoke as meaning smoke, which has rules in the environmental section. See here and look up the section titled "Smoke".
I'll also point out it doesn't explicitly say it provides concealment or total concealment which are the relevant game terms. For example, all the cloud type spells explicitly spell out the game rule effects (i.e. 20% concealmeant at so and so distance, 50% concealment beyond X distance) or refer to prior spells which do define it.
Obscurement in and of itself is not a game term and shows up nowhere in the combat section. So we're forced to infer that we use the concealment rules because it blocks line of sight completely. See here.
Of course, if they meant total concealment, why didn't they just spell it out there? If they meant the smoke environmental rules, why didn't they just spell it out there?
If the only reason it provides total concealment is because you are using the rules from the combat section which says line of sight is blocked, does that not imply all light sources have their line of sight blocked any distance into the smoke, and thus it is completely dark inside? If you look at the Song of the Fiery gaze here, it has the clause "as long as the light is sufficient to allow him to see normally". You may need to add darkvision to the list of things you need to use with an eversmoking bottle if you are arguing it provides total concealment, since there is no light inside the cloud.
I'm not saying that the above is the correct interpretation, but I am saying that is one possible interpretation, and that you will find society GMs with differing takes on all of it. If you're only playing with a small group of regular GMs and they all talk to each other and settle on one interpretation, thats great. However, if you bring it to a large convention, I think you will find differences of opinion and you should be aware of it. Before bringing the eversmoking bottle out, I'd probably ask a GM I'd never played with before what their take on the eversmoking bottle is and explain it is one of your character's tactics. I would not argue with them, but simply accept how they rule and play according to the ruling during the game. Without a clear FAQ on it, it will continue to be arguable.
I also personally would not find an argument compelling based solely on the idea that it helps the players even more. There are rulings like that in the game already.
I'm not even sure the argument that such a ruling makes the players stronger is true, since ruling it can choke you means you are spending resources and actions on dealing with the side effects of your own tactic. Either you and your allies are holding your breath, precluding verbal spell casting and limiting bardic performance to Keyboard, String, Percussion, or you are spending an extra 9,000 gp per caster on a necklace slot item or a 5th level spell slot. And you might need to add darkvision spells or items to it as well to the cost of the tactic.
Anyways, apologies for the derail. In response to having a flamedancer bard, I do have one, an archer bard, which generally plays with a battle oracle (planning on taking obscuring mist at 2nd level + fog cloud at 4th automatically from battle mystery) and a gun slinger as a team. Have not gotten to 3rd level yet to see how well it works in practice.