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AC is definitely not the measure of I win character brokenness. Its just one of many defenses. If you have a high AC then you are probably susceptible to something else. I have a lvl 12 barbarian who actually bumps every other form of defense but AC. When going all out has an AC of 12. Sure, you can hit him anytime you want but he will hit you first every time. A lot of GMs find it hard to play lets trade HP with a 200HP Barbarian.So maybe this should be its own thread, but since you guys are talking about high AC characters, what exactly do you consider high AC?Here was my first draft of various benchmarks. I have altered some of them in my mind, which is discussed later in that same thread.
I have a character that I consider to have a very high AC. At level 7, her AC ranges between 30 and 46, depending on various factors. At upper levels—I'm not sure exactly when that will be—I suspect her AC might even push 60. She is very much a team player and has a very well developed personality.
Oh, I wasn't asking for fear of broken PCs. I'm just trying to judge how my own front line characters stack up when it comes to tanking.
For my battle oracle, I think I'm roughly hitting the level +20 standard that I mentioned earlier. I don't have the sheet in front of me and haven't played him in a while, but I think he's at 24 or 25 AC at level 5, which tends to be good enough. He gets hit, but his AC is high enough to minimize how often.
But I also made a fighter who's intentionally more of an AC tank than I've ever done before, but intentionally going non-archetype, non-multi-class fighter, just to prove that the base class isn't as worthless as the power gamers would have you believe. He won't be the most optimized ever, but he should be effective enough to be useful at any table. And his highest skill is profession: chef, because that's his true passion in life.
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AC is definitely not the measure of I win character brokenness. Its just one of many defenses. If you have a high AC then you are probably susceptible to something else. I have a lvl 12 barbarian who actually bumps every other form of defense but AC. When going all out has an AC of 12. Sure, you can hit him anytime you want but he will hit you first every time. A lot of GMs find it hard to play lets trade HP with a 200HP Barbarian.
12?
THAT ARMOR CLASS IS WAY TOO HIGH. TRUE WARRIORS WEAR NOTHING BUT MAGIC SILK THONGS INTO BATTLE!
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There are no problem characters, only problem players.^ ^ ^ ^ ^ This! A thousand times this. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
There are plenty of problem characters! You're all problem characters, that's half the problem. If any of you could carry even half the weight of our adventure that I do, then we'd get a whole hell of a lot more done.
Problem players. Ha! The problem is that none of you are nearly effective enough, or at least as effective as me. And if you don't believe me, go ask that group of civilians I mass pain struck to get what our group needed.
Argue this, discuss that, negotiate whatever. I got RESULTS!
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AC is definitely not the measure of I win character brokenness. Its just one of many defenses. If you have a high AC then you are probably susceptible to something else. I have a lvl 12 barbarian who actually bumps every other form of defense but AC. When going all out has an AC of 12. Sure, you can hit him anytime you want but he will hit you first every time. A lot of GMs find it hard to play lets trade HP with a 200HP Barbarian.12?
THAT ARMOR CLASS IS WAY TOO HIGH. TRUE WARRIORS WEAR NOTHING BUT MAGIC SILK THONGS INTO BATTLE!
Sorry to disappoint you. The 18 Dex gets in the way. I also needed some form of armor to hang my moderate fortification on. But that's it...I swear.
It was pretty fun to run him through EotT part 1 and see the look of glee on my GMs face when I said that was my AC. That didn't last long once he saw the character in play.
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12?
THAT ARMOR CLASS IS WAY TOO HIGH. TRUE WARRIORS WEAR NOTHING BUT MAGIC SILK THONGS INTO BATTLE!
Sorry to disappoint you. The 18 Dex gets in the way. I also needed some form of armor to hang my moderate fortification on. But that's it...I swear.
It was pretty fun to run him through EotT part 1 and see the look of glee on my GMs face when I said that was my AC. That didn't last long once he saw the character in play.
Eighteen? Twelve? Even eight rankles my hide. Clearly none of you whelps know how to REALLY have fun with an AC of six.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I stopped raising my barbarians AC at some point because I realized that with invulnerable rager, anything that was going to do more that a couple hit points of damage was going to hit him on anything but a 1 at any AC I could conceivably achieve.
So I settled for getting him easy access to concealment instead. 20% miss chance for the win.
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I stopped raising my barbarians AC at some point because I realized that with invulnerable rager, anything that was going to do more that a couple hit points of damage was going to hit him on anything but a 1 at any AC I could conceivably achieve.
So I settled for getting him easy access to concealment instead. 20% miss chance for the win.
Same. My Barbarian when going full out takes a -13 AC penalty. No amount of armor investment will combat that effectively. So I don't spend my gp on AC. I got high hp, DR/-, paladin like saves, moderate fortification (50% crit/SA negation), a 20% miss chance, and I make everything that I hit make a Fort DC22 save or be dazed. That last is a big boost to my survival as my Barb has Come and Get Me, so I get an AoO on everything that attacks me.
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I stopped raising my barbarians AC at some point because I realized that with invulnerable rager, anything that was going to do more that a couple hit points of damage was going to hit him on anything but a 1 at any AC I could conceivably achieve.Wearing no armor and bragging about it. How quaint.
WELL HELLO MISTER FANCYPANTS!
HOW FAST DO YOU CAST EMERGENCY FORCE SPHERE?
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I stopped raising my barbarians AC at some point because I realized that with invulnerable rager, anything that was going to do more that a couple hit points of damage was going to hit him on anything but a 1 at any AC I could conceivably achieve.Wearing no armor and bragging about it. How quaint.
I said "at some point"
He still has his dragonhide breastplate (because 2pp is cheap.) Ring of protection +1 (because deflection bonuses are nice to have) And I would buy him a jingsana, but I am not sure that he can wear it without losing his level of blight druid that grants him his familiar.
It has been a while since I played him, but I think I finally put +1 deathless on his armor, because I got tired of taking negative energy damage.
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WELL HELLO MISTER FANCYPANTS!
HOW FAST DO YOU CAST EMERGENCY FORCE SPHERE?
Faster than you. Oh wait, you can't. You also can't do anything other than speak loudly and from what I've heard, fall for the most simple ploys to grab your attention.
As for that atrocity stuffed in that fur thong of yours? The flame makes it look like you've caught something from the local tavern. I'd have that dispelled by somebody has a clue before it turns everybody away from you. Now if that was your intent *golf clap* then good for you.
I said "at some point"
Justifications. How quaint.
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I wouldn't necessarily call the previous and current VC of Minneapolis trolls.
If anything I blame Trinam for making loud rambunctious barbarian avatars popular. And for some reason that seems to spawn uptight overconfident spellcaster avatars in response. Probably some long term effect of the lets kill AmBarbarian thread we had many years ago.
AM MISS AM!!
It's really been that long? Dayum, feeling old.
Tell me about
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I wouldn't necessarily call the previous and current VC of Minneapolis trolls.
If anything I blame Trinam for making loud rambunctious barbarian avatars popular. And for some reason that seems to spawn uptight overconfident spellcaster avatars in response. Probably some long term effect of the lets kill AmBarbarian thread we had many years ago.
I'm not. I'm calling their characters trolls.
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Sigh. The trolls are out in force today.
Somedays I really wish this forum had a killfile.
I am not a troll. Dear nine Hells do you not know what a troll is man?! A troll is a big green creature, can usually regenerate, is typically terrified by fire, and is far more angry than I am. I am but a not-so-simple Taldan man. If you think I'm a troll, clearly you've been mis-educated, which considering the state of most Pathfinders I meet, isn't surprising.
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I'm not. I'm calling their characters trolls.I wouldn't necessarily call the previous and current VC of Minneapolis trolls.
If anything I blame Trinam for making loud rambunctious barbarian avatars popular. And for some reason that seems to spawn uptight overconfident spellcaster avatars in response. Probably some long term effect of the lets kill AmBarbarian thread we had many years ago.
THUNDERLIPS! NOT TROLL! THUNDERLIPS! WANT SANGUINE BEAST TROLLHOUND FOR AN ANIMAL BUDDY!
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Fame will get it for you
2PPGets an item up to 750gp value...
• All basic armor, gear, items, and weapons from Chapter
6 of the Core Rulebook, including Small and Large-sized
items. This does not include equipment made from
dragonhide, but it does include equipment made from
the other special materials, such as alchemical silver
and cold iron (see the Special Materials section on
page 154 of the Core Rulebook). All mundane (completely
nonmagical) weapons, armor, equipment, and
alchemical gear found in any other source that is legal
for play are considered always available.*much snippage*
Beyond the gear noted above, your character is
restricted to purchasing additional items from his
accumulated Chronicle sheets, or by capitalizing on his
fame. Weapons, armor, equipment, magic items and so
on that are outside of these lists are not available for
purchase at any time.
Apologies for the confusion, just wanted to make sure I got it right.
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Yeah, all that passage is saying that it is not Always Available, that you must meet the fame requirements for it to own it.
Or, for 2 PP, bypass the Fame requirements.
Items that a 1st level PC might want to buy for 2 PP after their (usually) first game:
Wand of Cure Light Wounds (Almost always someone who can use one)
Wand of Infernal Healing (If you can use it, or think you'll be adventuring with someone who can, cheaper healing)
Wand of Magic Missile (Arcane caster, use your spells for other stuff)
Wand of Mage Armor (Monks, among others, tend to pick these up)
Dragonhide breastplate (Druids of the world, unite!)
Darkwood composite longbow, +3 Str (Save your money for the other stuff)
Greenwood composite longbow, +2 Str (Same as above)
Wand of Endure Elements (For several scenarios, this is almost as useful, or maybe more useful, than a wand of CLW)
Wand of Feather Step (something a charging build should consider)
Scroll with 5 castings of Lesser Restoration (do I need to explain that one?)
And lots more.
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Yeah, all that passage is saying that it is not Always Available, that you must meet the fame requirements for it to own it.Or, for 2 PP, bypass the Fame requirements.
Items that a 1st level PC might want to buy for 2 PP after their (usually) first game:
Wand of Cure Light Wounds (Almost always someone who can use one)
Wand of Infernal Healing (If you can use it, or think you'll be adventuring with someone who can, cheaper healing)
Wand of Magic Missile (Arcane caster, use your spells for other stuff)
Wand of Mage Armor (Monks, among others, tend to pick these up)
Dragonhide breastplate (Druids of the world, unite!)
Darkwood composite longbow, +3 Str (Save your money for the other stuff)
Greenwood composite longbow, +2 Str (Same as above)
Wand of Endure Elements (For several scenarios, this is almost as useful, or maybe more useful, than a wand of CLW)
Wand of Feather Step (something a charging build should consider)
Scroll with 5 castings of Lesser Restoration (do I need to explain that one?)And lots more.
Yep, just like I said, not Always Available.
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Venture-Captain, North Carolina—Central Region
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Yep, just like I said, not Always Available.Yeah, all that passage is saying that it is not Always Available, that you must meet the fame requirements for it to own it.Or, for 2 PP, bypass the Fame requirements.
Items that a 1st level PC might want to buy for 2 PP after their (usually) first game:
Wand of Cure Light Wounds (Almost always someone who can use one)
Wand of Infernal Healing (If you can use it, or think you'll be adventuring with someone who can, cheaper healing)
Wand of Magic Missile (Arcane caster, use your spells for other stuff)
Wand of Mage Armor (Monks, among others, tend to pick these up)
Dragonhide breastplate (Druids of the world, unite!)
Darkwood composite longbow, +3 Str (Save your money for the other stuff)
Greenwood composite longbow, +2 Str (Same as above)
Wand of Endure Elements (For several scenarios, this is almost as useful, or maybe more useful, than a wand of CLW)
Wand of Feather Step (something a charging build should consider)
Scroll with 5 castings of Lesser Restoration (do I need to explain that one?)And lots more.
I don't understand.
Are you saying that you can't buy the dragon hid breastplate for 2pp?
Or that you can?
What I think is being said is that purchases made with the "2 PP= 750 gp" option do not have to meet the Fame requirements to buy. It still has to be a legal item, per Additional Resources.
Otherwise, if an item in not on the Always Available list, but is legal per the Additional Resources, you must meet the Fame requirements for the item. Since the special material dragonhide is legal in the Resources, but not on the Always Available list, you must have the required Fame for the item before you can purchase it (unless using the 2 PP method above).
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Yep, just like I said, not Always Available.Yeah, all that passage is saying that it is not Always Available, that you must meet the fame requirements for it to own it.Or, for 2 PP, bypass the Fame requirements.
Items that a 1st level PC might want to buy for 2 PP after their (usually) first game:
Wand of Cure Light Wounds (Almost always someone who can use one)
Wand of Infernal Healing (If you can use it, or think you'll be adventuring with someone who can, cheaper healing)
Wand of Magic Missile (Arcane caster, use your spells for other stuff)
Wand of Mage Armor (Monks, among others, tend to pick these up)
Dragonhide breastplate (Druids of the world, unite!)
Darkwood composite longbow, +3 Str (Save your money for the other stuff)
Greenwood composite longbow, +2 Str (Same as above)
Wand of Endure Elements (For several scenarios, this is almost as useful, or maybe more useful, than a wand of CLW)
Wand of Feather Step (something a charging build should consider)
Scroll with 5 castings of Lesser Restoration (do I need to explain that one?)And lots more.
I don't understand.
Are you saying that you can't buy the dragon hid breastplate for 2pp?
Or that you can?
What I think is being said is that purchases made with the "2 PP= 750 gp" option do not have to meet the Fame requirements to buy. It still has to be a legal item, per Additional Resources.
Otherwise, if an item in not on the Always Available list, but is legal per the Additional Resources, you must meet the Fame requirements for the item. Since the special material dragonhide is legal in the Resources, but not on the Always Available list, you must have the required Fame for the item before you can purchase it (unless using the 2 PP method above).
first option is correct, second is not. (I believe - though I have been wrong before, and likely will be again).
Expending Prestige to purchase things, avoids the Game requirement.
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I can see the confusion. Perhaps your italicized sentence from the Guide should be changed to '. . . are not always available'?
Yes, that would be a beneficial change. I had the same confusion at one point. A great deal of effort goes into defining "always available," so when that term is not used a reasonable interpretation is that they didn't use the phrase for a reason.
If that was the intent (and I agree that it is), please, please, please, use that phrase.
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What I think is being said is that purchases made with the "2 PP= 750 gp" option do not have to meet the Fame requirements to buy. It still has to be a legal item, per Additional Resources.
Otherwise, if an item in not on the Always Available list, but is legal per the Additional Resources, you must meet the Fame requirements for the item. Since the special material dragonhide is legal in the Resources, but not on the Always Available list, you must have the required Fame for the item before you can purchase it (unless using the 2 PP method above).
This is correct.
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You are not forgiven. Everybody should know everything all the time. Clearly I can, therefore you should too.
Apologies for the derailment! It would seem the wording is not clear if there's this much confusion from folks far more experienced than I am.
EVERYONE IGNORES YOU AS THEY SHOULD YOU WORTHLESS TALDAN MUSHROOM STAMP.
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EVERYONE IGNORES YOU AS THEY SHOULD YOU WORTHLESS TALDAN MUSHROOM STAMP.You are not forgiven. Everybody should know everything all the time. Clearly I can, therefore you should too.
Apologies for the derailment! It would seem the wording is not clear if there's this much confusion from folks far more experienced than I am.
Did somebody say something? I thought I felt a strong, warm breeze, as if it came off of a fetid swamp.
I do this for Taldor!
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EVERYONE IGNORES YOU AS THEY SHOULD YOU WORTHLESS TALDAN MUSHROOM STAMP.You are not forgiven. Everybody should know everything all the time. Clearly I can, therefore you should too.
Apologies for the derailment! It would seem the wording is not clear if there's this much confusion from folks far more experienced than I am.Did somebody say something? I thought I felt a strong, warm breeze, as if it came off of a fetid swamp.
I do this for Taldor!
ULFEN MUSK BRINGS ALL THE LADIES TO THE YARD!