Which APs see like they would be particularly good or bad for a run through using only the classes found in Occult Adventures? Do you think that any of them seem to fit or clash with this idea thematically if not mechanically?
I made a Medium for Hell's Rebels, might be awhile tho, my wife is making a Mesmerist for it.
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Mechanical stuff may cause more problems than theme. The party will probably end up without a healer or trap-finder, so you may end up playing on hard mode in some APs.
The Good:
Carrion Crown would be nearly perfect. It's all gothic horror and investigation. Thematically, this is top tier occult.
I think Mummy's Mask would be fun, with occult themes and Egyptology going hand-in-hand, but trap-finders are key in tombs. Reign of Fire might do just as well, especially if someone plays a Sha'ir or genie-themed kineticist.
I'm reading Curse of the Crimson Throne now, but so far it'd fit really well with the theme. Any urban game should actually be great for occult adventures. I feel like it fits better with what we expect out of urban fantasy than the normal slate of classes.
And I haven't read Serpent's Skull, but I'd be willing to bet it fits well. Jungle temples filled with snakes, forgotten gods, and fallen civilizations? Oh yeah, that's the good stuff.
The May-Require-Some-Work:
Reign of Winter is uneven. Some of the later stuff is great for occult stuff, but it takes a while to get there.
Rise of the Runelords and Shattered Star could work very well if you play up the idea that wizardry is a lost art that the Thassilonians had. And the whole idea of a lost age of glory is good for occult themes (see the medium in particular).
Second Darkness is borderline. Elves and the occult isn't a normal combination, but digging into themes like the dero/tero and eloi/morlocks might make something very cool.
The Probably Not
On the other hand, I don't think Giantslayer would fit very well thematically. And Iron Gods loses some of its charm if it isn't spaceship and sorcery. Skull and Shackles might work, but I'm not seeing a way.
Cheers!
Landon
You don't need a trap-finder, there are many many many ways to deal with traps and quite a lot of ways to get the trapfinding ability, including a 2nd level spell, as for the healer... none of the occult classes can't fill that role (at least at the level that a druid can)?
Thank you everyone for your feedback. As for the whole trapfinder issue, it does not seem like that big of a deal to simply allow everyone to find and disable magical traps. Especially since only one class has disable device.
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Thank you everyone for your feedback. As for the whole trapfinder issue, it does not seem like that big of a deal to simply allow everyone to find and disable magical traps. Especially since only one class has disable device.
Note that in Pathfinder, anyone can detect magical traps with a successful Perception check (or spending three rounds with detect magic). Trapfinder just lets the character use Disable Device to disarm a magical trap (basically saving resources); erase and dispel magic are also options for many magical traps (via scrolls, wands, or possibly a staff of dispel magic, if a character has the appropriate feats and doesn't want to use up native spell slots).
+1 to Landon, Carrion Crown would be an awesome fit.
Council of Thieves. Maybe Second Darkness, at least until part 5-6. I don't know if any of the newer APs have seriously underpowered opposition. Most APs will hand a party of Occult Adventures classes their heads on a platter, unless the players are exceedingly meticulous with their optimization, or the GM really, really goes out of his way to keep them alive no matter what.
Council of Thieves. Maybe Second Darkness, at least until part 5-6. I don't know if any of the newer APs have seriously underpowered opposition. Most APs will hand a party of Occult Adventures classes their heads on a platter, unless the players are exceedingly meticulous with their optimization, or the GM really, really goes out of his way to keep them alive no matter what.
I would appreciate any constructive criticism on why you believe the Occult Adventure classes are under powered in the combat department and how fix it.
All but the psychic (who is OK, hey, it's a full caster) and the kyneticist (who simply doesn't have a big enough punch) have that bard syndrome, where on the paper you have plenty of powers, but then combat begins, and suddenly you find that unless you picked just the right options, notning you do makes a particularly big impact on the situation. You don't even have a real stick to hit people with - you need to expend resources to barely keep up with a fighter for an encounter or two! Sure, the cleric has the same syndrome before level 5 too, but the cleric at least can heal.
For that matter, speaking about the cleric, compare the occultist or the spiritualist to it and tell me the latter are not straight downgrades. Compare the mesmerist to the bard and see that they are not much different. I'm not quite sure what medium is even suppposed to do, given that he's a half-caster with a worse-than-cleric chassis and your best tricks are imitating 3/4th casters. Being flexibile and able to reinvent himself has limited worth in the world of DnD combat, where the most important resource of all are standard actions, and all your flexibly accessible options simply lag several levels behind the stuff normal classes can get access too. Well, I already covered the rest at the start of my post.
Sure, if you sift through every option meticulously, you can pull your weight with an Occult Adventures class, or maybe your party's psychic will pull for two. But you know, you can make overpowered monks and rogues if you try hard enough too. It just takes a disproportional investment of time and effort most people at my table (myself included) aren't willing to make.
Council of Thieves. Maybe Second Darkness, at least until part 5-6. I don't know if any of the newer APs have seriously underpowered opposition. Most APs will hand a party of Occult Adventures classes their heads on a platter, unless the players are exceedingly meticulous with their optimization, or the GM really, really goes out of his way to keep them alive no matter what.
The have played through the entire Kingmaker, Jade Regent and Wrath of the Righteous and i have DMed (again entirely) RotRL, Shattered Star and now Iron Gods (this one isn't finished, currently at book 5) and there are some trends with APs. Books 1 and 2 usually have ok difficulty, books 3 and 4 have somewhat easy encounters but have a boss battle or two (each) that dials up to difficulty and books 5 and 6 (especially book 6) are walks in the park.
Sure there are exceptions, for example RotRL has almost none of the above and Wrath of the Righteous becomes a cakewalk from book 3 (because mythic characters are SO much better than mythic monsters and there is the "XP problem" which is more visible in WotR) but i think that the trends i mentioned are good broad strokes about the difficulty of an AP.Anyway on occult classes, i know that they have a 9 level arcane spellcaster in them (psychic i think), from a cursorary reading it seems that the Spiritualist can cover the divine caster* role and then you need two others who can hit quite well (preferably melee), are there no classes in the Occult Adventures that can fight as well as a bard or alchemist?
*actually for that, what's the deal with scroll and wand activation of regular arcane and divine spells by psychic spellcasters? because that's going to be a big part on whether the spiritualist can cover the divine caster role.
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Anyway on occult classes, i know that they have a 9 level arcane spellcaster in them (psychic i think), from a cursorary reading it seems that the Spiritualist can cover the divine caster* role and then you need two others who can hit quite well (preferably melee), are there no classes in the Occult Adventures that can fight as well as a bard or alchemist?*actually for that, what's the deal with scroll and wand activation of regular arcane and divine spells by psychic spellcasters? because that's going to be a big part on whether the spiritualist can cover the divine caster role.
Mesmerist can fight really solidly if you snag the Vexing Daredevil archetype, generally able to hit the Bard/Alchemist level of performance. The accuracy issues normally suffered by 3/4 BAB classes are helped a bit by a pretty solid spell list and free Feint feats, as well as the ability to grab TW Feint with lowered prereqs. Implanting False Flanker in yourself and then snagging Sloppy Defenses as a Dazzling Feint can allow you some pretty solid chances to hit. You can get there with Occultist as well, the Battle Host archetype helps a bit there.
@Leo
Psychic is the third kind of magic, along with arcane and divine. There are now psychic scrolls, wands and staves, to go with the arcane and divine ones. So a psychic caster can't use arcane/divine scrolls, a divine caster can't use psychic/arcane scrolls, and an arcane caster can't use divine/psychic scrolls.
I'll be implementing psychic magic with about as much prevalence as the other two, so 'randomized' scrolls/wands in my games will be 33% chance of psychic, arcane or divine.
Ok, i can get the rules part of that (the usual 75% if the cost of the scroll is equal or lower to the base value of the city) but what about the availability? Did the Golarion books that came along with Occult Adventures say where psycic magic is more "usual" so to "allow" someone to buy psychic scrolls?
PS. iirc wands don't have the arcane-divine distinction so there shouldn't be an issue about wand usuage, but anyway wands are quite easy to use with UMD.
Jalmeray (as an outpost of Vudra) would be a likely hotbed of psychic magic activity.
Southern Garund (off-map for now) could be an interesting source, as could the serpent-folk.
Taking the Golarion solar system into account: Castrovel would be obvious (particularly the Lashunta), the Contemplatives on Akitron, and both Bretheda and Liavara. Aucturn for maximum nastiness.
BTW, I am currently working on converting Rise of the Runelords. Let me know if anyone wants my notes.
Occult Adventures, AKA: Paizo's psionics book that they refuse to call psionics because some people dont like psionics, so they're gonna re-skin it into "psychic spells" in the hopes that people don't realize that it's psionics...when its really just psionics.
As to the OP's question: I don't know what the best AP would be, but I think an all psionic "occult adventures" Kingmaker campaign could be quite intriguing.
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Occult Adventures, AKA: Paizo's psionics book that they refuse to call psionics because some people dont like psionics, so they're gonna re-skin it into "psychic spells" in the hopes that people don't realize that it's psionics...when its really just psionics.
Except... y'know... it isn't. At all, other than sharing a few names for abilities here and there.
The problem with calling Occult Adventures and Psychic Magic by the name "psionics" or just assuming that it's just psionics by a different name is that mechanically they're completely different. Most people who are familiar with older-editions psionics, particularly 3.5-era, associate the term "psionics" with power points, crystals, augmenting powers, and so forth. Since that's not what Paizo's abilities do, they chose to give it a different name to further highlight the mechanical differences.
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Occult Adventures, AKA: Paizo's psionics book that they refuse to call psionics because some people dont like psionics, so they're gonna re-skin it into "psychic spells" in the hopes that people don't realize that it's psionics...when its really just psionics.
Except... y'know... it isn't. At all, other than sharing a few names for abilities here and there.
The problem with calling Occult Adventures and Psychic Magic by the name "psionics" or just assuming that it's just psionics by a different name is that mechanically they're completely different. Most people who are familiar with older-editions psionics, particularly 3.5-era, associate the term "psionics" with power points, crystals, augmenting powers, and so forth. Since that's not what Paizo's abilities do, they chose to give it a different name to further highlight the mechanical differences.
+1
Psionics to me always felt more Dark Sun; a world where magic wasn't the predominant thing, and just grittier overall. I know that wasn't always the case but it's always how it felt. Psionics feels more sci-fi, as a word even. Psychic magic is more about occult themes, pushing beyond the boundaries of normalcy into something weirder and less comprehensible to the rest of even the magic community at large. Even the way they cast is different, using thought and emotion as components and putting more significance into personal items and historically important things/places.
To the OP: Me and my wife are currently running a Carrion Crown game with only OA classes and it's super fun so far. I'm also playing an Occultist in Second Darkness and having a LOT of fun. The skill unlocks for psychic magic users (and the object reading from Occultist) have been a lot of fun to play with and learn things we might have otherwise had no way of learning. I feel like the occult rules themselves may fit in a lot of APs for just those sorts of situations, though the classes themselves may not work as well in all of them...
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Occult Adventures, AKA: Paizo's psionics book that they refuse to call psionics because some people dont like psionics, so they're gonna re-skin it into "psychic spells" in the hopes that people don't realize that it's psionics...when its really just psionics.
As to the OP's question: I don't know what the best AP would be, but I think an all
psionic"occult adventures" Kingmaker campaign could be quite intriguing.
Psssstt.... Maybe they don't call it psionics because it isn't psionics. The flavor is different, the mechanics are different, the bulk of the inspirations are different... It's almost like they're different. Having both Dreamscarred Press' Ultimate Psionics and Paizo's Occult Adventures sitting on my shelf, the only thing they share are the names of a couple powers (which are still mechanically distinct).
Psionics is a power-point based system that ties into more modern themes and has more in common with DC superheroes or 20th century sci-fi. It deals more with unlocking the inner potential of the mind.Paizo's psychic magic uses the more traditional Vancian framework (except the Kineticist, which is an elemental-themed clone of the 3.5 Warlock) and is inspired by a combination of 19th century mysticism and Lovecraftian mythos. It deals with magic tied to the soul and spiritualism.
They don't play the same, they don't feel the same, and they don't even look the same. Their area of overlap is pretty small, to the point that I can run psionics and psychic magic in the same game as two separate systems and no one questions that they're two totally different things. They have way less in common than arcane and divine magic do.
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To the OP: Me and my wife are currently running a Carrion Crown game with only OA classes and it's super fun so far. I'm also playing an Occultist in Second Darkness and having a LOT of fun. The skill unlocks for psychic magic users (and the object reading from Occultist) have been a lot of fun to play with and learn things we might have otherwise had no way of learning. I feel like the occult rules themselves may fit in a lot of APs for just those sorts of situations, though the classes themselves may not work as well in...
I think one of the things about psychic magic is that it feels like the power system Golarion was designed for. The very concept of the Pathfinder Society, nations like Ustalav, the steampunk-y vibe of the Alchemist, etc. all kind of feeds into this vibe that just makes psychic magic and the Occult Adventures classes fit.
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Ssalarn has a solid post about the differences. I will supplement it with an interesting anecdote:
At Gencon, I had something happen to me four times throughout the con while standing near our copies of Occult Adventures. Two people would come up at about the same time, and one of them would say "Eh, I don't need this one. I already have psionics, and psionics is awesome, but I don't need another psionics." and the other would hear this and respond "Yeah, there's no way I'm getting this, but for the opposite reason. I hate psionics!" As someone who played lots and lots of 3.5 psionics, I was in a good position to discuss this with them, and the end result? All eight of them (four pairs of two, with one psionics lover and one psionics hater per pair) left with a signed copy of Occult Adventures (for reference, my usual rate for convincing someone checking out Occult Adventures that it would be a great purchase was much less than my rate for when I was able to talk to people like that and compare and contrast with psionics). This is because Occult Adventures does something interesting in that regard; it provides a powerful and synergistic counterpoint for psionics that fits great if you use them both and makes it a strong choice for a psionics fan, but it also does so in a way that it is also generally that counterpoint that makes it just the thing that psionics-haters were looking for. That's why, I think, it turned out to be more appealing for both extremes than for people who were more ambivalent on psionics.
I've actually been putting thought into an all-occult Carrion Crown game, though I'm not sure if the absence of a designated melee class would be an issue or not; the Spiritualist's phantom and/or a Medium with the right legend might be able to fill that gap. That said, from a thematic perspective it seems like an excellent fit, right down to the opening hook (the Professor would naturally take an interest in practitioners of such esoteric magical traditions).
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I've actually been putting thought into an all-occult Carrion Crown game, though I'm not sure if the absence of a designated melee class would be an issue or not; the Spiritualist's phantom and/or a Medium with the right legend might be able to fill that gap. That said, from a thematic perspective it seems like an excellent fit, right down to the opening hook (the Professor would naturally take an interest in practitioners of such esoteric magical traditions).
The occultist has pretty good armor and weapon proficiencies, and battle host occultist steps that up a notch.
Guys i don't think that Carrion Crown is the best AP for an all occult party and it's not the lack of a full bab melee character.
First of all it's going to be difficult getting through book 1 alive without someone who can channel positive energy.
Secondly i think that this is a bad AP to go with a substitute for the divine caster role (cleric, oracle, healing patron witch), i am saying this because, from what i have heard/read about the AP, the delayed access to "remove/restore" spells that a 6th level spells class (with no early access) brings, coupled with the below WBL feature of this AP means a lot of cursed, diseased etc. adventurers.
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I think Curse of the Crimson Throne is ideal of the older APs, since it requires conversion anyway.
Hell's Rebels so far is also looking pretty good,
Skull and Shackles would be awesome (occult pirates just sounds like good fun! Kind of like The Goonies even)
Iron Gods would be creepy fun with an Occultist, Psychic or Medium in the party (Numeria asks for a psychedelia disciplined psychic)
Jade Regent is another one, eastern mysticism and what not.
Same with Mummy's Mask and mummies and the dead and the pulp feel.
I agree that Carrion Crown without a Cleric is suicide, but Clerics are already pretty Occultish if you think about it, especially Clerics of Pharasma, if any path is perfect for Mediums, Occultist and Spiritualist it's Carrion Crown and Curse of the Crimson Throne.
Skull and Shackles would be awesome (occult pirates just sounds like good fun! Kind of like The Goonies even)
I think if I were to do Skull and Shackles as an Occult AP, I'd go really off the beaten path (and off the Golarion map) and make the "Shackles" a location in the Dimension of Dreams that is notable for its pirates that raid into the waking world. The PCs are conscripted into its navy in the first adventure, and then must eventually contend with the Cheliax dream/nightmare navy who seeks to take over the Shackles as a base from which to stage their conquest of the rest of Golarion.
I might even be tempted to exchange the Cheliaxians with the Men of Leng, come to think of it.
Skull and Shackles: Raiders of the Nightmare Seas
I think I might take it to the stars!
F++% it all, we have the people of the stars, the technology guide, Iron Gods and Distant Worlds, couldn't be too hard :-)
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I think I might take it to the stars!
F@~* it all, we have the people of the stars, the technology guide, Iron Gods and Distant Worlds, couldn't be too hard :-)
Dang- I hadn't thought about that. Skull and Shackles as a Space Opera? That would be pretty f'in cool!
Already working on it in my head:-D
Oh shit!
What if you have The Divinity Drive after Skull and Shackles book 6 the levels should work perfectly :-)
I wonder if you could just move Valley of the Brain Collectors to Auctern, hmm, combine elements of Iron Gods, Distant Worlds and Skull and Shackles.
Guys i don't think that Carrion Crown is the best AP for an all occult party and it's not the lack of a full bab melee character.
First of all it's going to be difficult getting through book 1 alive without someone who can channel positive energy.
Secondly i think that this is a bad AP to go with a substitute for the divine caster role (cleric, oracle, healing patron witch), i am saying this because, from what i have heard/read about the AP, the delayed access to "remove/restore" spells that a 6th level spells class (with no early access) brings, coupled with the below WBL feature of this AP means a lot of cursed, diseased etc. adventurers.
Hmm, that's definitely a good point. The Psychic's Faith Discipline* gives them energy-channeling and "free" cure spells, but curing status effects might still be a significant problem.
*Thematically speaking, I really like this specialization but I find it hard to develop a character who's devoted to a specific god and yet doesn't have divine class levels. However, since their power can be interpreted as coming from the faith itself, I stumbled upon a juicy idea: a worshipper of Aroden! And it fits CC because he had such a personal beef with Tar-Baphon.
Guys i don't think that Carrion Crown is the best AP for an all occult party and it's not the lack of a full bab melee character.
First of all it's going to be difficult getting through book 1 alive without someone who can channel positive energy.
Secondly i think that this is a bad AP to go with a substitute for the divine caster role (cleric, oracle, healing patron witch), i am saying this because, from what i have heard/read about the AP, the delayed access to "remove/restore" spells that a 6th level spells class (with no early access) brings, coupled with the below WBL feature of this AP means a lot of cursed, diseased etc. adventurers.Hmm, that's definitely a good point. The Psychic's Faith Discipline* gives them energy-channeling and "free" cure spells, but curing status effects might still be a significant problem.
*Thematically speaking, I really like this specialization but I find it hard to develop a character who's devoted to a specific god and yet doesn't have divine class levels. However, since their power can be interpreted as coming from the faith itself, I stumbled upon a juicy idea: a worshipper of Aroden! And it fits CC because he had such a personal beef with Tar-Baphon.
Faith Psychics just get one spell level per day convertable into a cure spell, no channeling at all.
Thank you everyone for your feedback. As for the whole trapfinder issue, it does not seem like that big of a deal to simply allow everyone to find and disable magical traps. Especially since only one class has disable device.
Did you know that you can give new class skills to each class via the character trait system found in the Advanced Player's Guide?